These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Thoughts on GOON Manipulation of T2 BPOs

First post
Author
Pubbie Spy
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2014-05-10 08:58:11 UTC
Josephine Vera wrote:
Just came back to eve for the summer changes. Was watching the streams and reading reports. Before starting, I am one of the original T2 BPO owners in 2003 but have since sold them over the years and now retired with most of my time in pvp Pirate

Found one that really stood out: http://themittani.com/news/fanfest-industry-panel-discussion

Apparently there was nothing worth noting by any CCP representative regarding t2 bpos in the stream but this site which is written by a Goon has been unusually enthusiastic in reporting about it and phrasing it in such a way that it will be removed soon. Their CSM representative was also looking forward to it very much Shocked

While looking through the forums, I noticed several characters posting with the intention of destabilizing T2 BPO prices on every T2 BPO thread. Examples:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342071&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342035&find=unread

Most of which can be traced to a Goon Main or used in a Goon scam before.

I was surprised as obviously the biggest losers in this T2 BPO removal would be Goons as it is no surprise that they hold some of the largest amounts of t2 bpos in existence. However, they seem extremely supportive of the removal BUT there has been no liquadation of t2 bpos done by Goons Blink

It is obvious that their main intention is to scare the wider public into dumping their t2 bpos and buying up at dirt cheap prices while knowing that the removal of t2 bpos will likely never happen.

Thoughts?


There is always space on the goonspiracy bandwagon. Furthermore, we must not fix a broken feature if goons are in favour of fixing it as well.
Elmore Jones
Orange Street
#42 - 2014-05-10 14:16:01 UTC
Reading this thread you might almost think that forming power bases by successful gameplay (both combat and meta), and making isk from the game mechanics was something unintended by the game design.

+++ Reality Error 404 - Reboot Cosmos +++

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#43 - 2014-05-12 07:50:31 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
If they really wanted to remove them, they could probably just start buying them at market value using confiscated ISK, slowly and secretly, over a few years. Done slowly enough, the inclusion of that ISK in the economy would probably be negligible (and since it's confiscated ISK, it was already a part of the economy to begin with - it was just artificially removed), and purchasing them at market value eliminates any butthurt over their removal.

You wouldn't get the ones that aren't looking to sell at any price, but it's not a race, and they're not doing any actual harm beyond hitting a handful of crybaby have-nots in the feelings.
What's "market value"? You mean the hyper inflated prices people pay for them which is way above their functional value? Why would they do that, injecting a heap of illegally gained isk into the game at a price determined by the owners? They'd be better off just removing them completely. It would only make like 10 people quit, so who cares?

Realistically though, they are likely just to become non-functional, so they are for collections only. That way people dumb enough to have held onto them can say "look at the items I've got" while the actual industry system plods on with realistic changes able to be made to the invention system without worrying about the effects on T2 BPOs.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Agata Matahari
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2014-05-12 10:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Agata Matahari
Lucas Kell wrote:

They'd be better off just removing them completely.

any strong argument why they should do that?

Lucas Kell wrote:
It would only make like 10 people quit, so who cares?.

why do you care?

Lucas Kell wrote:
Realistically though, they are likely just to become non-functional, so they are for collections only. That way people dumb enough to have held onto them can say "look at the items I've got" while the actual industry system plods on with realistic changes able to be made to the invention system without worrying about the effects on T2 BPOs.


Wow, very qualified comment and such profound arguments. Seems you are pretty butthurt that 10 people seem to have t2 bpos and you don't. :D

Lucas Kell wrote:
That way people dumb enough to have held onto them can say "look at the items I've got"


That made me laugh. How old are you? 12? Envy is strong in this one.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#45 - 2014-05-12 10:55:01 UTC
Agata Matahari wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
They'd be better off just removing them completely.
any strong argument why they should do that?
The reason they would need to is because like extra materials, T2 BPOs tie their hands when working with invention mechanics. They've stated that they will no separate the BPOs from the BPCs, so all changes they make to invented BPCs will spill over to BPOs. Their removal (or making them non-functional) would fix this.
Oh and this is a little out of context. The quote here is that they'd be better off removing them that pouring trillions of confiscated isk back into the market to buy T2 BPOs at what players value them at (which is vastly above their functional value).

Agata Matahari wrote:
why do you care?
I don't, which is why I'm not fussed by CCPs announcements that they will be decreasing in value and inevitably removed. They need to do it to be able to properly iterate on invention, so in my opinion it's a good idea. People getting all teared up about their investments decreasing in value shouldn't hold them back from changes that need to be made.

Agata Matahari wrote:
Wow, very qualified comment and such profound arguments. Seems you are pretty butthurt that 10 people seem to have t2 bpos and you don't. :D
That must be it. I'm so poverty stricken I can't just go onto the sell orders forum and buy up some T2 BPOs. I always find this argument to be the weakest. You realise T2 ownership is exclusive to a club called "everyone" right? They aren't particularly expensive (though they are far too pricey for their return) and they are often on sale. The reason I don't currently own T2 BPOs is because they are simply not worth the investment. And no, I don't think only 10 people own T2 BPOs, I just think that if they removed them about 10 owners would ragequit, while the other would just HTFU and move on.

Agata Matahari wrote:
That made me laugh. How old are you? 12? Envy is strong in this one.
Yup, again, I'm mega envious. If only I could a afford to buy them... But here I am scraping in the dirt to afford frigates, right? Get over yourself buddy. Not everyone sits around dreaming of T2 BPOs, those of us that have been here long enough to have seen them come and go know that they are just a collectors item. Some people like collectors items, I personally don't. I'll continue to invest in profitable ventures instead.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Victor Dathar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2014-05-12 15:41:51 UTC
Elmore Jones wrote:
Reading this thread you might almost think that forming power bases by successful gameplay (both combat and meta), and making isk from the game mechanics was something unintended by the game design.


But you see Goons did it so it is an exploit k?

^^^ lol that post is so bad you should get back 2 GBS m8 o7

@grr_goons : Wisdom, Insight, GBS Posts

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2014-05-12 17:18:46 UTC
Agata Matahari wrote:

Wow, very qualified comment and such profound arguments. Seems you are pretty butthurt that 10 people seem to have t2 bpos and you don't. :D

people who own t2 bpos are to be pitied for their low intellect not envied

even people who simply inherited theirs or won them in the lottery rather than bought at these prices: if you saw 10 year profit prices on those, didn't realize it was a bubble and cash out immediately, boy howdy you're not the sharpest tool in the shed

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2014-05-12 18:16:59 UTC
Really, if your financial plan with multiple billions of startup capital is to trickle towards breaking even in 10 years then you should probably stick to mission running.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2014-05-12 20:45:59 UTC
here you all go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTTyMhSKY9E

skip to 22:20

"i think we've been fairly consistently, publically of the opinion that we need to do something with t2 bpos for some time, I hope that's being taken into account in market prices..."

"...that value is going to go down in the future..."

good luck with the "this is all just a goonie lie" thing

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Otti Ottig
Hesso Business
#50 - 2014-05-12 21:58:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Otti Ottig
double post
Otti Ottig
Hesso Business
#51 - 2014-05-12 22:34:02 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
here you all go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTTyMhSKY9E

skip to 22:20

"i think we've been fairly consistently, publically of the opinion that we need to do something with t2 bpos for some time, I hope that's being taken into account in market prices..."

"...that value is going to go down in the future..."

good luck with the "this is all just a goonie lie" thing


c&p'ing this thousand times doenst make it better (especially when using it as argument to sell for cheap on every T2 BPO sale thread)

oh and how does "value will go down" and "we won't take them away, and screw you" make u think that they will be removed? -value of something not existent can't go down IRRC

welcome to 5 days ago btw.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#52 - 2014-05-12 23:20:10 UTC
Otti Ottig wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
here you all go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTTyMhSKY9E

skip to 22:20

"i think we've been fairly consistently, publically of the opinion that we need to do something with t2 bpos for some time, I hope that's being taken into account in market prices..."

"...that value is going to go down in the future..."

good luck with the "this is all just a goonie lie" thing
c&p'ing this thousand times doenst make it better (especially when using it as argument to sell for cheap on every T2 BPO sale thread)

oh and how does "value will go down" and "we won't take them away, and screw you" make u think that they will be removed? -value of something not existent can't go down IRRC

welcome to 5 days ago btw.
Good job with the selective quoting.

Your quote: "we won't take them away, and screw you" actually finished with "completely, there will be some kind of transitional plan.". So yes, that says to me that they will be removed, just not without warning.

They also state "We needed to do something with T2 BPOs for a quite a long time", "the current status quo is not ideal" and "Part of their problem is their extreme value and that value is going to go down.". And yes, the value of an object that does exist that will not exist in the future can go down, in fact it will got to zero. I'd take that more as a sign that they will either keep the item as a collectors item and leave them non-functioning, or they'll replace them with something of a lower value that's commonly available in the game.

Overall though, there's no way they can freely work with invention while they exist, and I very much doubt they'll keep them around and have to build workarounds into the invention system just because it will make a few people sad if they remove them. Anyone that thought they would be around forever is either crazy or not very bright.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2014-05-13 00:17:42 UTC
Otti Ottig wrote:

oh and how does "value will go down" and "we won't take them away, and screw you" make u think that they will be removed? -value of something not existent can't go down IRRC

they won't just be deleted, they'll get some token reward: it just will assuredly not be "here is something worth ten years profit"

i assume that the timetable on those getting murdered in their sleep was moved up after the issues they caused with the current change

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#54 - 2014-05-13 00:43:23 UTC
Some of y'all not gonna have a chair when the music stops and it will be magical

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Otti Ottig
Hesso Business
#55 - 2014-05-13 07:38:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Otti Ottig
Lucas Kell wrote:
"Part of their problem is their extreme value and that value is going to go down(... RIGHT, BEFORE WE REMOVE THEM ALL, LMAO, OWNED". And yes, the value of an object that does exist that will not exist in the future can go down, in fact it will got to zero. .


yea im sure that's exactly what he wanted to say :D

anyway, title plus the flood of low-ball offers in sell orders says it all
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#56 - 2014-05-13 11:04:56 UTC
Otti Ottig wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
"Part of their problem is their extreme value and that value is going to go down(... RIGHT, BEFORE WE REMOVE THEM ALL, LMAO, OWNED". And yes, the value of an object that does exist that will not exist in the future can go down, in fact it will got to zero. .
yea im sure that's exactly what he wanted to say :D
So now you've moved from selective quoting to misquoting. Nice one.

The point is that you stated that the value of something being removed can't go down, which is clearly incorrect. They could be removed by making them non-functioning collectors items, which would reduce their value heavily, while simultaneously removing them. They could also replace them with some T1 BPOs, or with some isk, or any number of other options. What he's saying is that they will be removed, and they will not be worth the inflated values they currently are when they go.

Otti Ottig wrote:
anyway, title plus the flood of low-ball offers in sell orders says it all
Then go ahead and bet on them staying. I really couldn't care less where you choose to invest your isk. If you want to gamble on them staying in game and remaining at the high value they are, that's your choice. Just don't start screaming and crying about how unfair CCP are when they remove them and destroy your investment.

The low ball offers are inevitable from the announcements made, since people will be trying to flip them from people trying to dump them to people that don't know better.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Victor Dathar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2014-05-13 11:58:52 UTC
WTS Goon Conspiracy Generator II BPO

Starting bid 15b

^^^ lol that post is so bad you should get back 2 GBS m8 o7

@grr_goons : Wisdom, Insight, GBS Posts

Otti Ottig
Hesso Business
#58 - 2014-05-13 21:20:46 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


The point is that you stated that the value of something being removed can't go down, which is clearly incorrect.


funny you mentioned my (relativly obvious) missquoting.

ALL I SAID IS
Quote:
-value of something not existent can't go down IIRC


saying that to point out that it's value is going down right before it's getting removed just makes no sense at all as it's the most obvious thing in the world
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#59 - 2014-05-13 22:47:32 UTC
Otti Ottig wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
The point is that you stated that the value of something being removed can't go down, which is clearly incorrect.
funny you mentioned my (relativly obvious) missquoting.

ALL I SAID IS
Quote:
-value of something not existent can't go down IIRC
saying that to point out that it's value is going down right before it's getting removed just makes no sense at all as it's the most obvious thing in the world
lol, well that quote does not say what you seem to think it says, those are 2 totally separate statements.

On top of that, it makes perfect sense. Reducing their effectiveness, and thus their value in stages, then removing them once their value reaches a certain level is not only a perfectly sound method of removal, but it also fits to what they said about a "transitional plan".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2014-05-14 16:47:14 UTC
You should be far more concerned about the fact we have better things to do.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.