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Proposal to combat industrial assaults: Crash the market
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Wendrika
Doomheim
#21 - 2014-05-05 10:59:45 UTC
While I don't like the New Halaima Code of Conduct and the racketeering that supports it, I do understand that there is a message behind it. Not a message of "love" like some of the more fervent Agents might say, but one of self-discipline. After my first encounter with an Agent of the New Order, I took some time to review my own actions and made a few changes to my behavior:

I no longer dooze off between mining cycles, but instead, I converse with my fellow capsuleers in the Intergalatic Summit communication channel. This keeps me in contact with reality and aware of what is happening around me.

I no longer haul all my ore to sell it for pure profit, but instead, I save roughly half of it to refine and make my own ships, even if at a loss, and use the ISK I make to purchase Blueprints to research. I plan to use those ships to give those damned Guristas a piece of my mind, and someday fight for the State in the border. Today a Kestrel, tomorrow a Raven!

I make more risks, venture in to Lowsec more often and leave myself open to the harsh realities of New Eden. I will lose ships, and I will probably die, but I plan to take those experiences and strenghten myself with then. I can't and I won't hide myself behind CONCORD. I will gain strenght and fight for myself!

So you see, the best way to fight them, in my view, is to improve ourselves and make Industrialism a more credible and relevant trade, instead of fighting for the "freedom" of being a mindless risk adverse machine. That is the lesson I learned. Right or wrong.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#22 - 2014-05-05 11:57:14 UTC
Brian Harrelstein wrote:
Desiderya wrote:
No.


Care to elaborate your reasons for a single-word dismissal?

No.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Jurou Yuan
Wolfraam 74
#23 - 2014-05-05 14:03:45 UTC
I'd rather make money than participate in some limp protest thanks.

That and destruction is sort of the lifeblood of my entire income.
Arista Shahni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2014-05-05 14:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Arista Shahni
If one miner parks their exhumer, one bored soldier would simply undock theirs, after the interior and exteriors were blast-cleaned for particulates and dust.


I am not sure who these people are, but as a former industrial director I can take a guess as to what they are.

Watch local. fly in fleets. Don't fly so damned drunk. Why are you watching Holoreels? Where is your internal security? Do you watch local? Scout for each other. I'm sure I said one of those twice.

If you believe space is meant to be flown in alone -- alone, you will die in it.

Crash the market... if you had a chance of rallying such a thing the Caldari megacorps blackops soliders would be jostling each other for a chance to throw a sack over your head right about now.

"I say that even as the holy and the righteous cannot rise beyond the highest which is in each one of you - so the wicked and the weak cannot fall lower than the lowest which is in you also.  And as a single leaf turns not yellow but with the silent knowledge of the whole tree, so the wrong-doer cannot do wrong without the hidden will of you all."
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#25 - 2014-05-05 18:10:46 UTC
I also dislike code, they tend to cut into my profits. But this is a bad idea. Shutting down the economy for that amount of time would be a disaster, and code would just suspend their actions until the miners returned.

On an unrelated note, I need to go find some boosters to help up the damage output on my cat's blasters....

((P.S. thank God for copy pasta, this message has been eaten 4 times.))

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#26 - 2014-05-05 18:14:41 UTC
Funny that, with all this talk I can still get all the minerals I want. Perhaps if you put less faith in CONCORD and more faith in your own abilities it would be clear that this organization is no more a threat than any other once you leave the immediate "protection" of CONCORD. The only solution is the embrace the danger and create your own solution for your defence.
Karynn Denton
Astrometrica
#27 - 2014-05-05 20:29:16 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
On an unrelated note, I need to go find some boosters to help up the damage output on my cat's blasters....


Ah, now there's the rub, Claudia... there aren't any boosters that will do that directly.

Drop will help your tracking, Sooth will extend your falloff and Frentix will give you better optimal, but none of those significantly help a Catalyst blasting a large near-stationary target at close range (assuming this is what you want to do with said Catalyst?)

Karynn Denton

Caravan Master
Vulxanis Viceroy
Vicarius Vitae
Khimi Harar
#28 - 2014-05-05 20:56:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Vulxanis Viceroy
I understand your logic, and if CODE was a more significant presence, as well as there not being nearly as many other corporations, your idea may be possible.

However, the logistics are too impossible to implement.

A good way to get away from being harassed in Hisec is to mine the asteroid belts that are found during missions. CODE would be forced to scan you down, and the more people in the system, the harder it will be. Yes, these belts usually only have common ores, but it is still a better option than losing one's ships.

Instead of taking the fight to them, simply protect your own assets. If your corporation does not already have a security division to escort its miners, you should create one. This will especially be useful during when CODE declares war. If nothing else, those security ships can buy your miners time to escape and dock. They are not worth hunting down if you are trying to make a profit. Ms. Shahni elaborated on this rather well.

CODE will die out if people ignore them, avoid them, and circumnavigate them entirely. When you outsmart them, the more resources they spend trying to harass you, the less they can take in, causing them to bleed out. Having different jump clone areas where you mine is a wise idea. If they discover your current system, simply jump clone to a significantly farther away place to mine for the time being. It would also be wise to have several of these options.

Worst case scenario, contract Red/Black Frog to move your resources for you if you implement the jump clone tactic. There are a myriad of ways to harass them without conflict, and it will cause significant frustration on their part. I am sure there are many more that can be concocted in the spirit of circumnavigation.

Any other option is a waste of your resources and time. All they want is blood. If you are too hard to catch, they will eventually give up.

In Character: Only responds to "Lord Draconis"

Pronounced "Vulzanis"

Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4fanm8/eve_in_a_nutshell_and_how_to_crack_it/

Public channel: VXV EVE

Twitter: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vulxanis_Viceroy
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#29 - 2014-05-05 21:59:10 UTC
Karynn Denton wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
On an unrelated note, I need to go find some boosters to help up the damage output on my cat's blasters....


Ah, now there's the rub, Claudia... there aren't any boosters that will do that directly.

Drop will help your tracking, Sooth will extend your falloff and Frentix will give you better optimal, but none of those significantly help a Catalyst blasting a large near-stationary target at close range (assuming this is what you want to do with said Catalyst?)

Well, damn, I was really hoping there would be something to give me an edge while my skills train....

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-05-05 22:23:19 UTC
An industrial deadlock on the scale you're suggesting would be utterly impractical to co-ordinate. You're essentially asking industrialists - a people whose entire raison d'etre is to make money - to stop making money. Not only that, but you're engineering a situation in which it would be exceedingly profitable for an industrialist to continue operating in spite of your project, since there would be vastly decreased competition and vastly increased demand. At some point, someone's desire to, you know, make money is simply going to outstrip their desire to spite CODE.

You can't fight CODE by matching them in combat ship for ship, and attempts to go after their sponsors directly won't work. If you genuinely want to fight CODE, you ironically need to fight them where they're strongest - rhetorically. The way to fight CODE isn't to attack their sponsors, it's to attack their public image - the thing that makes their sponsors want to sponsor them. CODE is strong precisely because they make people want to support their activities through management of public opinion. If you want to hurt them, you need to work out a way to make the people that currently love CODE hate it. CODE doesn't care about miners and industrialists hating it - they want miners and industrialists to hate it. What they might - and I'm not saying for a dead certainty that they would, but they might - care about is if the crowd from which they usually pull their sponsors started to detest them.

I have no suggestions about how you might do that. If I did, I'd have suggested it to someone like Anslo already.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#31 - 2014-05-05 22:30:36 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:


I have no suggestions about how you might do that. If I did, I'd have suggested it to someone like Anslo already.

Direct people to their Galnet site. It speaks volumes about their hypocrisy, especially after listening to them in local.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-05-05 23:02:14 UTC
Brian Harrelstein wrote:
occasionally we'll see random people pop up and complain that they suck

?...

Brian Harrelstein wrote:

So, what I would like to propose is the following: No more mining, and no more ship manufacturing. For at least three months.

From which of moons did you fall?
I need my ships!

Continue in that direction, and I'll make sure you will taste my antimatter.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Myxx
The Scope
#33 - 2014-05-06 08:09:01 UTC
Brian Harrelstein wrote:
So I'm sure we all know about CODE and their ganking operations by now, and occasionally we'll see random people pop up and complain that they suck, etc. Some have even (unsuccessfully) taken up arms in an attempt to stop their harassment.

I would like to issue a proposal to all capsuleers of New Eden. It's probably nothing new, but I'd like to see the public's responses anyways.

So, what I would like to propose is the following: No more mining, and no more ship manufacturing. For at least three months. Everywhere.

I know that to some of the large alliances that this may seem impossible due to pre-existing wars, but I would like to crash the economy to make a point. Some capsuleers have been privately funding CODE to continue their harassment in Lonetrek (amongst other places), and until they run out of ships and ISK, their actions will continue unabated.

If the entire population stops mining and building ships for 3 months, the current supply of ships and ore/minerals will plummet, prices will skyrocket, and it will eventually become unfeasible for these groups to operate. Combine that with the upcoming design changes to the industrial refining processors, and they won't be able to snatch up mineral-rich modules and melt those down to build ships either.

While I realize that what I am proposing is a larger scale than their current operations, the entire universe can use this opportunity to make a stand and prove to "Concord" that we are tired of CODE's actions. "Concord" has always taken the stance that if something bothers capsuleers enough, that we will rally together and eliminate the bothersome entities, without their intervention.

As I understand, CODE has been operating for over a year at this point (if not longer). We obviously can't eliminate CODE as it currently stands today because of their wealthy benefactors, and this could possibly be our only solution. I know it would be hard work, and require the dedication of capsuleers from every corner of New Eden, but I honestly think we could do it if we all buckled down and do what needs to be done.

I would like to propose that this action be taken immediately, until such a time that it becomes extremely cost-prohibitive to replace a ship that CODE would otherwise lose to Concord. Any delay will allow CODE to stockpile ships, materials and ISK required to allow them to continue operating.


I don't believe that you fully understand the magnitude of the global market and why exactly this would never happen. the production group I am apart of currently has 60+ different builds going on at any one point in time. That isn't even counting component builds.

And that is a rather small production chain by comparison.

Do you honestly expect all of us to stop doing what we are doing?
Solecist Project's Alt
Doomheim
#34 - 2014-05-06 13:58:55 UTC
lol brilliant idea. %)
DutchGunner
Circle of Abyss
Wicked Angels.
#35 - 2014-05-10 17:56:45 UTC
It is an interesting concept but one that will not work due to simple economics.

Even if most industrial capsuleers would suspend their activity, there are still the empires and non-capsuleer corporations that are industrially active. The drop in supply would have an effect ofcourse. But as the demand stays the same and the supply drops, prices will rise and it becomes lucrative to take up industry again. There can be a stall or small temporal effect, but that's about it. We capsuleers may have ascended to a new state of being but there are still plenty of rules that apply to us and affect our choices and actions.

Regards,

DutchGunner
CONCORD Loyalist
Ashlar Maidstone
MoonFyre BattleGroup Holdings
#36 - 2014-05-14 06:46:17 UTC
Pilot Harrelstein;

While much has been revealed about CODE, it is at best that we, I mean WE the honest to goodness capsuleers that struggles everyday to mine ores of all shapes and sizes, and then to refine or reprocess that raw material to the minerals we need in our production chains.

It is true however that the tactics used by CODE is making the work of the industry capsuleers much more difficult and dangerous as well. While my corp is not in any great danger tho, I had to cut back operations to a point of just barely getting by and have resorted to ratting or mission running to supplement my normal income, this is a very difficult time indeed.

I have even suspended manufactoring jobs until such times that I can place my orders to begin producing the products I need, and it's very difficult in that department as well.

Again, calling on the industrialists thru out New Eden to come together for a show down against CODE will be a rather lengthy process of contacting the various corps and alliances thru diplomatic means to ensure if and when. And even then through channels that are publicly available to all.StraightPirate
Chinwe Rhei
Syn Interstellar
#37 - 2014-05-14 09:40:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Chinwe Rhei
There is no need to stop production surely.

What you need to do as an industrialist opposing the CODE is stop selling on the public market. At all. Forever.
You can buy all you want, but you should never sell.

For an industrialist trading and accumulating isk is pretty useless, so stop it !. You have the fairly large initial BPO isk costs granted, but those are one-off purchases. Other then that station operating costs are pretty small, and whatever isk you really need can be gathered doing odd jobs for the government or through *cough*insurance fraud*cough*.

Ah i hear you say, what about all the materials i need that i don't gather, how do i get them if i don't have any isk ?
Well you can't get them on your own, but you can get them if you organize with other like minded industrialists. Form a cartel, network, set standings and trade agreements. Barter.
Use the contracts and the in-station trading and trade whatever you produce for whatever it is you need. Heck you can use the good old trit as a unit of industrial currency if you need to reference prices.

There is a big opportunity here for someone to set up a big barter market where isk is laughed at yet producers can get everything they need.

If enough industrialists refuse to sell on the public market you can strangle isk prices and destroy the purchase power of the combat pilots that harass you and who, having failed in their duty to protect you really are completly useless to you, even as clients.
This without affecting your own and your organisation's ability to maintain their ships and infranstrucutre too much.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#38 - 2014-05-14 10:02:52 UTC
Hahahaaahahaha!

Desiderya wrote:
No.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#39 - 2014-05-14 11:30:13 UTC
This reminds me of that old anecdote I've heard somewhere on Doril II:

A Republican PM complains to lord Ardishapur:
"What have you done on Arzad? There is no more Starkmanir!"
Ardishapur shrugs:
"There is no more unethical treatment of Starkmanir either."

I'm really glad you're not a doctor, Mr. Harrelstein, because according to you, the best cure for a malady would be terminating the patient.

Humour aside, I'd advise reading a few books on basics of economy and going back to the drawing board.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#40 - 2014-05-18 02:32:07 UTC
For what it's worth, I boycotted building Catalysts a long, long time ago. I've never seen a bumptard flying an Amarrian ship design, either, so I feel no reason to stop manufacturing.

The stuff the bumptards use is very limited in scope, maybe three hull designs and half a dozen weapon systems. Just stop building those particular items and keep on making your other stuff as before.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
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