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Time to extend the skill queue

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Habris
State War Academy
Caldari State
#101 - 2014-05-06 21:28:59 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Habris wrote:
The answer is not a longer queue, but rather the way players can manage it. I'm sorry you cannot realize this.

Absolutely.

They should be able to manage it from a web browser.



Only if limited, 5-10 times a year. Maybe once a year pilots are awarded more and what isn't used gets banked. Barring the bonus remaps, one can only do it once a year. So Nikk since you've read and now hopefully understand that CCP didn't and NEVER intends for the queue to be longer than 24 hours. Web based skill management should be just as regulated. Emergencies and life happen, but what you people are wanting is just counter intuitive to CCP's goal for this game.

Other than that just login to the game, it's what you pay for.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#102 - 2014-05-06 21:45:22 UTC
Habris wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Habris wrote:
The answer is not a longer queue, but rather the way players can manage it. I'm sorry you cannot realize this.

Absolutely.

They should be able to manage it from a web browser.



Only if limited, 5-10 times a year. Maybe once a year pilots are awarded more and what isn't used gets banked. Barring the bonus remaps, one can only do it once a year. So Nikk since you've read and now hopefully understand that CCP didn't and NEVER intends for the queue to be longer than 24 hours. Web based skill management should be just as regulated. Emergencies and life happen, but what you people are wanting is just counter intuitive to CCP's goal for this game.

Other than that just login to the game, it's what you pay for.

What CCP wanted in 2009, and what they want 5 years later, do not necessarily match.

As to what I pay for, considering the many different play styles, how do you know I don't love just chatting up on the forums itself?

Can you give a reason, beyond this 5 year old claim of intent, for not allowing complete skill queue access from a web browser or app?
Why should there be limits?

If I am not going to play today, how can anyone claim that my using a game client rather than a browser to update my queue has any value whatsoever?

I simply would like a plain and simple reason for this, beyond the already described 5 year old claim of intent.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Habris
State War Academy
Caldari State
#103 - 2014-05-06 22:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Habris
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Habris wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Habris wrote:
The answer is not a longer queue, but rather the way players can manage it. I'm sorry you cannot realize this.

Absolutely.

They should be able to manage it from a web browser.



Only if limited, 5-10 times a year. Maybe once a year pilots are awarded more and what isn't used gets banked. Barring the bonus remaps, one can only do it once a year. So Nikk since you've read and now hopefully understand that CCP didn't and NEVER intends for the queue to be longer than 24 hours. Web based skill management should be just as regulated. Emergencies and life happen, but what you people are wanting is just counter intuitive to CCP's goal for this game.

Other than that just login to the game, it's what you pay for.

What CCP wanted in 2009, and what they want 5 years later, do not necessarily match.

As to what I pay for, considering the many different play styles, how do you know I don't love just chatting up on the forums itself?

Can you give a reason, beyond this 5 year old claim of intent, for not allowing complete skill queue access from a web browser or app?
Why should there be limits?

If I am not going to play today, how can anyone claim that my using a game client rather than a browser to update my queue has any value whatsoever?

I simply would like a plain and simple reason for this, beyond the already described 5 year old claim of intent.


You seem to be throwing a tantrum because CCP since 2009 have said "no" and with their silence of the matter since has continually said "no". As to the limitations on the number of skill modifications via a web browser? So people actually login and play, don't want to undock? That's your business. Eve Online's passive skill minigame isn't meant to be browser based. You completely ignore the examples of the damage it could do to character bazaar as detailed by myself and other. Historically speaking in EvE when you crash one part of the market everything else goes to ****.

Untill limited browser based skill queuing is a thing - "Working as intended". Get over it, move on.


Edit: You keep labeling your proposal as "Progress", exactly HOW is it progress? How would an extended queue be progress beyond setting skills for months at a time and probably not playing till it's done "cooking". To further extract cerebrally produced fecal matter from you detail how limited browser based skill queuing be the most terrible thing beyond doing nothing? Because thats what you sound like. In a bind and need to set a skill, login to the browser and set one, but be faced with the fact that you can only do that 4 more times. After that you'd have to login to the game the good old fashioned way instead of playing your version of the game i'll deem - EvE Offline....
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#104 - 2014-05-06 22:01:30 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Habris wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Habris wrote:
The answer is not a longer queue, but rather the way players can manage it. I'm sorry you cannot realize this.

Absolutely.

They should be able to manage it from a web browser.



Only if limited, 5-10 times a year. Maybe once a year pilots are awarded more and what isn't used gets banked. Barring the bonus remaps, one can only do it once a year. So Nikk since you've read and now hopefully understand that CCP didn't and NEVER intends for the queue to be longer than 24 hours. Web based skill management should be just as regulated. Emergencies and life happen, but what you people are wanting is just counter intuitive to CCP's goal for this game.

Other than that just login to the game, it's what you pay for.

What CCP wanted in 2009, and what they want 5 years later, do not necessarily match.

As to what I pay for, considering the many different play styles, how do you know I don't love just chatting up on the forums itself?

Can you give a reason, beyond this 5 year old claim of intent, for not allowing complete skill queue access from a web browser or app?
Why should there be limits?

If I am not going to play today, how can anyone claim that my using a game client rather than a browser to update my queue has any value whatsoever?

I simply would like a plain and simple reason for this, beyond the already described 5 year old claim of intent.

well you posted it in the right place, hopefully it will be picked up as it does seem a relic of a different day. You can see it with many tools OOG but you cannot update itWhat? these tools did not exist then, we can read our mail on CCP's own Eve Gate. so +1 for change.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#105 - 2014-05-06 22:28:19 UTC
Habris wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
I simply would like a plain and simple reason for this, beyond the already described 5 year old claim of intent.


You seem to be throwing a tantrum because CCP since 2009 have said "no" and with their silence of the matter since has continually said "no". As to the limitations on the number of skill modifications via a web browser? So people actually login and play, don't want to undock? That's your business. Eve Online's passive skill minigame isn't meant to be browser based. You completely ignore the examples of the damage it could do to character bazaar as detailed by myself and other. Historically speaking in EvE when you crash one part of the market everything else goes to ****.

Untill limited browser based skill queuing is a thing - "Working as intended". Get over it, move on.


Edit: You keep labeling your proposal as "Progress", exactly HOW is it progress? How would an extended queue be progress beyond setting skills for months at a time and probably not playing till it's done "cooking". To further extract cerebrally produced fecal matter from you detail how limited browser based skill queuing be the most terrible thing beyond doing nothing? Because thats what you sound like. In a bind and need to set a skill, login to the browser and set one, but be faced with the fact that you can only do that 4 more times. After that you'd have to login to the game the good old fashioned way instead of playing your version of the game i'll deem - EvE Offline....

Ummm.... riiight....

I can't see the part where I am throwing a tantrum either. You are quite passionate about how you feel, I must confess.
I like to see spirit in my fellow players, so I will cheer you on for that, at least.

Perhaps you can't come up with that reason, then?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Titan Andronicus
Rookie Mission Tax Haven
#106 - 2014-05-06 22:52:32 UTC
Well, unless I'm mistaken Habris is not actually a CCP spokesperson! Just a passionate advocate of the party-line orthodoxy.

30-day skill queue for a 30-day subscription! Many thanks
Habris
State War Academy
Caldari State
#107 - 2014-05-06 23:04:19 UTC
Not passionate at all, as I said your fervor for something that has been whined about without any other reason other than "I want it" makes me smile.

@Nikk I asked first.
Titan Andronicus
Rookie Mission Tax Haven
#108 - 2014-05-06 23:17:33 UTC
Well CCP have the empirical evidence at hand to investigate any of our claims.

There are three principles I've identified which argue in favour of a skill queue extension, including an infinite queue:

1. Consumer choice. A person subbing an account should be allowed freedom of choice what to do with it.
2. Equality of Access. A player should not be discriminated against if their circumstances do not allow them to log in consistently.
3. Value for money. The 'breakage' example that a player paying for a sub is not getting full value for money when losing SP through no fault of their own, i.e. an inability and not unwillingness to plan skill training to completely span a planned absence.

So it would be progressive for CCP to redress these current limitations.

Also, Habris, as much as I admire your consistency and adding to the debate, I don't think the constant accusation that our side of the debate is 'whining' is acceptable. That's just provocative and does not constructively add to the discussion.

30-day skill queue for a 30-day subscription! Many thanks
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#109 - 2014-05-07 00:22:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikk Narrel
Habris wrote:
Not passionate at all, as I said your fervor for something that has been whined about without any other reason other than "I want it" makes me smile.

@Nikk I asked first.

Already answered.

This enables players to maintain a connection to the game, while the ability or desire to fully log into it for normal play may be absent.

While the player would not be able to interact directly with others, using this alternative, they were not inclined to do so in the first place. They would have logged in normally if they wanted to actually play.

This type of connection would give many players a means of feeling connected, when a PC is not available to them.
In some cases, this could easily mean the difference between canceling an account or keeping it going when regular play itself is denied by circumstances.

For players with a more hectic lifestyle, the ability to quickly bump a skill this way may be the only practical option.
Booting up a PC can be a luxury under many circumstances.
(The very existence of pads and smartphones stands as testimony that many wish to be connected despite lack of PC access)

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Dachhan
Pnex Pwn Squad
#110 - 2014-05-07 00:26:11 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
Just be glad you have a skill que man, i remember…

No one cares… Well, at least no one but bitter old vets. How about this: Anyone paying ($) for their subscription should get an expanded skill queue - no questions asked. Whether those players login every day or only once a month, they're the ones actually generating the revenue for EVE.



This...
Habris
State War Academy
Caldari State
#111 - 2014-05-07 00:49:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Habris
@Titan Andronicus While the statement is provocative, and I could probably word it more sensitively its just not the type of person I am. So far the argument has been "I pay for this and I think I deserve it". Which takes me to my next point.

@Nikk

Quote:
This enables players to maintain a connection to the game, while the ability or desire to fully log into it for normal play may be absent.


That statement speaks volumes for you and your argument, and not in a good way. I would be the first to admit not being a spokesperson for CCP, but rather a voice that has been playing for quite some time. If what I am saying isn't a reflection of the thoughts and intent of the developers I invite them to publicly state their official opinions against it. If you need browser based skill management without limitation to complete your eve offline game due to the lack of interest you hold, then perhaps you should just quit again.
Milan Dalenti
Perkone
Caldari State
#112 - 2014-05-07 04:25:24 UTC
Just a few points...

- Ghost training was all about people continuing training WITHOUT AN ACTIVE SUBSCRIPTION. It had nothing to do with stopping people from being able to train offline when actively subscribed.

- CCP is a business. The business is funded by PAID SUBSCRIPTIONS. Not by bittervet tears or people logging in to swap out a skill

- As a multi-account user I can tell you that the ability to change my skill queue remotely without having to have access to the EVE client would be a god send. Sometimes I get the alert that my long training is running out. But guess what I have something that comes up and I can't rush home to be at the beck and call of pixels on the screen.

- The skill queue should be as long as your active subscription. This would actually help a bit with lightening the load from tools such as EVEMON or Aura.

- We have seen that CCP DOES support out of game interaction - EVEGate anyone?

- I think CCP would like to have that soldier going to Afghanistan continue to be a paying member without having to violate EULA or do other questionable antics to update his skill queue. Just like the many people that instead of letting their subscriptions lapse continue to sub while they are offline for extended periods.

- The character bazaar argument put forward is ridiculous. CCP would love to see the prices come down on Characters in the Bazaar as that will mean greater character turn-over... And how do we transfer a character kids??? PLEX!!!! thats right. Get rid of those pesky PLEXes and drive the price higher so that they get more real dollar subs and less PLEXING freeloaders.

- Multi-Platform and Mobile gaming is a direction that CCP wants to go in. If they can get you to sub to EVE just to keep a skill queue going, while you play DUST on your PC and change your skill queue/read EVEmail/etc on the mobile. They would have a building sized erection just thinking about it

TLDR - Let people set a skill queue as long as their active subscription. If that means I siub for 60 days so that I can have a queue that long then CCP is all the better off. Also let me manage that queue remotely, like I can EVEMail.
Malcolm Malicious
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#113 - 2014-05-07 06:24:27 UTC
Updating the skill queue through account management/some app would be nice for people on very long vacations without a laptop with the game installed.
Karl Staufenberg
Executor Industries
#114 - 2014-05-07 06:28:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Staufenberg
I've been deployed the last three months. I don't have a computer, just a tablet and crappy wifi. All I can say is I'm going insane not being able to update my skill queue. Even when I'm at home station, our ops tempo can get out of hand- I've missed out on a lot of SP because I can't update past 24 hours.

And yes, I've kept my sub active the entire time.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#115 - 2014-05-07 13:47:18 UTC
Habris wrote:
@Nikk

Quote:
This enables players to maintain a connection to the game, while the ability or desire to fully log into it for normal play may be absent.


That statement speaks volumes for you and your argument, and not in a good way. I would be the first to admit not being a spokesperson for CCP, but rather a voice that has been playing for quite some time. If what I am saying isn't a reflection of the thoughts and intent of the developers I invite them to publicly state their official opinions against it. If you need browser based skill management without limitation to complete your eve offline game due to the lack of interest you hold, then perhaps you should just quit again.

If this is your platform, then I must point out you must also own the consequences of defending it.

You are declaring that people MUST play EVE your way.

Not being flexible, or allowing for this variety, I feel goes against a deeper core principle of EVE. Deeper than the one you claim to protect with your argument.

I believe we understand your opinion.

Suggesting that players should chose to quit the game, if they cannot play as you described, tells us everything we need to know.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2014-05-09 10:20:00 UTC
I'm thinking an active subscription with an empty skill queue can accrue SP at a rate usual for a skill where the attributes are 17-17, that being the base for attributes. When the player logs in these SP can be allocated, the mechanism for which exists already.

Another option: the time spent empty appears at the start of the queue and the player can drag and drop as usual into this area. Once the Apply button is pressed the skills within this portion of the queue train immediately.

In both cases if the subscription lapses the accrual process stops along with the queue as normal.

This change won't affect the obsessive players as they'll be logging on anyway. It won't affect adversely content because players can catch up on training and be sooner into nulsec to provide the bittervets with more content. At the moment the queue emptying puts back this, so ensuring players don't miss out on SP is beneficial to the game.

TBH I see the resistance to this as one of those "I didn't have it so why should you?" things. Hardly a good reason to deny its validity.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#117 - 2014-05-09 20:06:30 UTC
Not having to be online and logged in to progress is one of the major selling points of eve over other MMOs. It makes total sense to play to that strength as much as possible.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#118 - 2014-05-09 23:27:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Daenika
Quote:
@Titan Andronicus While the statement is provocative, and I could probably word it more sensitively its just not the type of person I am. So far the argument has been "I pay for this and I think I deserve it". Which takes me to my next point.


To be fair, your argument thus far is "I see no use for it, and I didn't have that luxury while skilling up, therefore you shouldn't either".

What I would love for you to explain is how this:

Quote:
How would an extended queue be progress beyond setting skills for months at a time and probably not playing till it's done "cooking".


Is at all different from, much less inferior to, logging in every couple of days just to update a skill queue and otherwise ignoring a character until it's done "cooking".

That's precisely what I did with my HS L4 alt. I spent 6 months updating his skill queue, never once undocking him or doing anything else with him. How does my doing that add to the game?
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#119 - 2014-05-10 00:28:05 UTC
It's definitely long enough to serve the needed purpose, to prevent you having to set an alarm clock in the middle of the night, or juggle your skills to avoid doing so, as well as to save grief when training lots of short skills.

Lengthening the skill que wouldn't solve the problems that adding the skill que did in the first place, it would simply foster laziness, and allow people to que up longer and longer sets of skills.

CCP, please keep the skillque as it is.
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2014-05-10 08:54:34 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
it would simply foster laziness, and allow people to que up longer and longer sets of skills.

CCP, please keep the skillque as it is.

Eve declares it's a game that people play as they wish to play. Who are you to say I can't play it in a lazy fashion? If you don't wish to avail yourself of the facility of a long skill queue then don't, but don't you start telling me I mustn't also.

I didn't have this so YOU can't. Pathetic...