These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Fortune Favors the Bold

First post First post
Author
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2014-05-04 15:09:32 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
If my maths are close, maxed out, this thing will pull about a fifth the yield of a 1.5 week old toon in a barge.

yes. the H/j are paying 1.5x veld, give or take.

So income per time mining H/J in this vs veld in barge = 0.2 x 1.5 = 30%.

So, I can max this out, take it out to low, find H/J cluster to mine... and make 1/3rd the profit of mining veld in high?

(ignoring travel time... ignoring risk... ignoring the what adding Mex to Arc will do to Mex price...)

Yep, we're sure to see fleets of these ninja mining low sec. Becuase we all know the goal of miners is to minimize profits in exchange for higher risk.


Yup.

It is largely irrelevant though.
With the buffs to the ABC rocks, null sec refine rates, and null sec industry, null sec takes another step towards complete independence from all other sectors in the game, which is what one of the dev's promised 6 months ago would never happen.

It is only a matter of time before the cartel leaders start demanding of their serfs minerals, or uncompressed ores, as part of their monthly tribute.

I find it a joke when null sec complains about their transportation costs to high sec going from 0.5% to 0.75% of a payload with this isotope hike. If you listen to one of the chief architects of this indy overhaul, he has plans for null sec to be like Civilization-like city-states.

Of course, he forgets to mention, those city-states will trade with each other, and have nothing to do with high sec.


I have to say I agree with you on the ore yield hike, I thought that the point of mex being rare was to encourage movement of players and goods between regions. This change combined with the yield hike makers it easier for the nullsec groups. I thought the point of Eve was that nothing should be made easier in terms of gameplay.

If they want people to move to lower security regions this didn't the way to go about it, it'll simply create a bigger divide between the regions and the current alliances will become more powerful. The smaller groups will never have a chance to compete and would be crushed the instant they tried to take sov anywhere of value.

This reminds me of the Premier League Football in the UK, the top few teams have all the wealth and no other team can hope to compete or begin to challenge them. As more money comes in through various tv/advertising rights those few teams become more powerful, the consequence of which is that wealth is being sucked away from the smaller teams and the leagues are being killed in the lower leagues. The same will happen to any group living in the lower wealth regions.

This may as well be a case of gradually forcing players to move to null and kneel before one of the major groups as they will have no other option if they want any meaningful gameplay beyond destroying a few missions for the eventually nerfed rewards.
Bear Templar
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#142 - 2014-05-04 15:14:23 UTC
Be interesting to see when Fozzie said:

"..The Prospect is the first Expedition Frigate, a new class of ships"

So more are yet to come...interesting.

Not only that be this line:

"This team was tasked with developing new and improved technologies for resource collection in the most hazardous parts of known space, wormhole space, and beyond."

It's the "...and beyond." part that really intrigues me.

If a fish weighs 1 Kilogram plus half its own weight, how much does it weigh? (It's not 1.5kg btw)

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2014-05-04 15:24:58 UTC
My guess would be a bunch of more survivalist ships that can jump into a newly opened system and produce the stuff needed to create the second anchoring gate. Colonists moving in and living in the new are basically, taking everything with them to build the tools to build more tools and ships to build yet more and so on until creating the new gate.

That could be fun *but* it needs to be open to everyone, not just the major groups otherwise it hands yet more power and wealth to the few. I would actually like to see some benefits to people declaring for the empires, better rewards for defending empire space against the real threat of null, access to empire controlled gates to new systems, working for and in defence of the empires.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2014-05-04 15:58:42 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
I really think that increasing the amount of resources available in null space is going to make null sec even more politically static.

Wars are fought over limited resources, and when everyone has access to abundant resources, the incentive to go to war diminishes. I think it makes more sense to severely reduce any and all easily available resources, across the board in both high-sec and null-sec. Force more conflicts over resources to occur, by making them more scarce.

For example: how about moving *all* of the ABC roids to WH space for a while and see what happens? I'm sure that it would prove to be very entertaining, due to the dynamics of wormhole access.


I think it would actually make more sense to make the different ores available be more distinct but with all still being required to build. That way you will have hi and losec players interacting more with nulsec not less. Interaction leads to conflict, usually through greed from seeing what the other side has that you want. The irsk/reward balance is always called at this point since hisec is more safe than losec (unless you try to move anything of value, mine without paying the heavies etc etc).but whatever happened to a balanced game? These changes may well throw the balance between hi/lo/null sec to the point that null is all that matters and that would be bad for the game in general.

Soon when a new player joins and they will be effectively told that to actually earn any real wealth in the game you have to move to someone else's space and your choices are very limited. I thought Eve was about valid and valuable choices to be made. The gradual degrading of hi and lo sec in favour of null is destroying these choices.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#145 - 2014-05-04 16:04:20 UTC
Maxed out, excluding skills which equally effect a barge)

1.25 * 1.25 * 2 * 2 *1.09*1.09*1.09* 60
(MF bonus, EF bonus, Prospect Bonus, number of lasers,mlu,mlu,mlu, base yield)

485m3 per minute.

A procurer will pull in 594m3 per minute, max skill with 2 MLUs
A retriever will pull in 648m3 with 3 MLUs.

So, if you're getting the better ore, it's better. And some people like to walk on the wild side.

(and for gas, it's really good)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Janden Rynd
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#146 - 2014-05-04 16:46:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Janden Rynd
Benny Ohu wrote:
Janden Rynd wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
i'm not trying anything. there are already covert ops ships in the game, with three lows, which farmers don't bother using.


But the Venture is a common ship among the farmers; they tend to mine while farming. If you give them the ability to use a covops cloak and get an even better total stab count, do you really think that's going to reduce the farming, or make it any easier for real FW types to shoot them down?

i don't even remember if complexes have asteroids in them. i do not care if a farmer scrapes an extra million isk's worth off a rock while they bore themselves and everyone else to tears. i imagine the majority of farmers will continue to use the minimum-skill minimum-cost cloaky stabbed atrons and ventures.

fw plexing (still) needs attention but i feel that shouldn't stop us getting a new spaceship that's unlikely to affect plexing meta in any meaningful way


The bolded part is where we disagree then; I see this ship as having a much more meaningful impact than you seem to suppose.

marcel72 wrote:
The "real FW types" should HTFU, IMO.


So you're in favor of making plex farmers even more uncatchable and unkillable, and letting them operate at virtually no risk in return for high rewards?

FW farmers have a large effect on system control, but they have no skin in the game. They are not in FW to fight for one side or the other, they just go where the ISK is. FW was supposed to be about using PvE mechanics to encourage PvP encounters. Instead, FW farmers exploit the PvE mechanics to make ISK while avoiding the PvP risk, but they still alter the system status, arguably even more than any of the FW PvPers.

I wouldn't have an issue with all of this if it were possible for the FW PvPers to actually engage the farmers with a reasonable amount of effort. As it is now, it is possible to catch the farmers, but very difficult to do so, and the farmers operate at very low risk. Running in a Prospect instead of a Venture will further reduce that risk the farmers face by making it even easier for them to avoid PvP, all the while taking advantage of a system that is supposed to promote PvP.

The Prospect undermines the fundamental principle of risk vs. reward as it exists in FW. This balance is already skewed, and it most certainly did not need an even further nudge towards low risk/high reward activities.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#147 - 2014-05-04 20:34:54 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:
Shinnan Krydu wrote:
Removal of drones from the ship = inability to kill web/scram elite frigates that sometimes show up in belt spawns. If you get scrammed in your Prospect, what do you do? Drop a mobile depot and switch out to some small guns? Patently ridiculous that this ship doesn't have the same drone capability the T1 version does.

Inability to deal with elite frigates puts the stop on "ninja mining" nullsec belts and essentially negates a large portion of it's stated purpose. Depending on price it may be much more useful as a blops tackle than anything else.


Why does this keep creeping up? Are people that bad with simple game mechanics? The Prospect can literally tank battleships thanks to a small sig. Cruisers in LowSec aren't a problem either. So the ship doesn't need guns.

Are you going to sig tank the frigates he was asking about?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#148 - 2014-05-04 20:48:17 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
Shinnan Krydu wrote:
Removal of drones from the ship = inability to kill web/scram elite frigates that sometimes show up in belt spawns. If you get scrammed in your Prospect, what do you do? Drop a mobile depot and switch out to some small guns? Patently ridiculous that this ship doesn't have the same drone capability the T1 version does.

Inability to deal with elite frigates puts the stop on "ninja mining" nullsec belts and essentially negates a large portion of it's stated purpose. Depending on price it may be much more useful as a blops tackle than anything else.


Why does this keep creeping up? Are people that bad with simple game mechanics? The Prospect can literally tank battleships thanks to a small sig. Cruisers in LowSec aren't a problem either. So the ship doesn't need guns.

Are you going to sig tank the frigates he was asking about?


Actually, yes. T2 frigate against frigate-sized rats. Even if the Prospect isn't as durable as say, an assault frigate, it will be enough. Look at the EHP of that ship. Fill up a few resist-holes and a few belt rats will never make a dent in its tank.
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#149 - 2014-05-04 21:24:53 UTC
The Prospect will allow for better mining against high sector ganker's as well seeing as how it can fit a covert ops cloak and warp while cloaked.

I would also imagine that ORE will be coming out with its own personalized style of industrial as well in the future.

An industrial that can light Cyno's for groups of Prospects so the Prospects don't have to waist a high slot.

It would also be interesting to see an ORE Command Ship developed from the Venture mining frigate design except the size of a battleship where bonuses are given to only Venture, Prospect and X ORE Industrial type ships when in fleet.
Nlex
Domini Canium
#150 - 2014-05-04 22:02:58 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:
Actually, yes. T2 frigate against frigate-sized rats. Even if the Prospect isn't as durable as say, an assault frigate, it will be enough. Look at the EHP of that ship. Fill up a few resist-holes and a few belt rats will never make a dent in its tank.

I kind of assumed that the problem was not the damage, but being tackled, as it makes you unable to actually take back stuff you mined. MWD can probably fix that, but not sure if you can fit propmod and still have enough tank, and if both will fit.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#151 - 2014-05-04 22:13:11 UTC
Nlex wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
Actually, yes. T2 frigate against frigate-sized rats. Even if the Prospect isn't as durable as say, an assault frigate, it will be enough. Look at the EHP of that ship. Fill up a few resist-holes and a few belt rats will never make a dent in its tank.

I kind of assumed that the problem was not the damage, but being tackled, as it makes you unable to actually take back stuff you mined. MWD can probably fix that, but not sure if you can fit propmod and still have enough tank, and if both will fit.


I don't think belt rats tackle, or do they? Never happened to me, even when visiting LowSec. And besides, if you're ninja-mining outside of HighSec, an AB is better, since you can use it to speed tank the rats. I think this was even stated in the dev blog: Prospect + medium shield extender + AB = a ship that can tank bs-rats.

Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2014-05-04 22:36:06 UTC
"This may as well be a case of gradually forcing players to move to null and kneel before one of the major groups as they will have no other option if they want any meaningful gameplay beyond destroying a few missions for the eventually nerfed rewards."

I respectfully disagree. Eve is a game people PAY to play, it's NOT free nor a tax that one HAS to pay. You DON'T have to buy plex if you don't want to. I could be mistaken but just cruise around highsec, there was a time that one could find a variety of toons of mixed ages in almost all systems. Nowdays it seems most toons are 1 - 3 year old, they are the ones that have not gotten bored yet with the constant nerfing of highsec. By the way having toons docked in station for weeks just skilling up is usually not a real career choice, those probably are players trying something else out and have not unsubbed because of the years they have invested in Eve.

Of course I could be totally wrong.....Big smile but if truth in advertising were followed all expansions should be promoted as the "nerf highsec gameplay, buff everything else" straight jacketed, tar babied, repetitive, nullbear overshadowed "sandbox".
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#153 - 2014-05-04 23:17:39 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:


I don't think belt rats tackle, or do they?



Elite rats do.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#154 - 2014-05-04 23:20:36 UTC
Anyway I look forward to testing this new baby out. +1 to the Prospector. Some people base themselves in low sec, and low sec mining might actually be comparable to high sec mining now. :)

This also opens the door to low sec / pirate corp mining missions, which are otherwise impossible to do with a Venture (no tank or DPS against rats) or barge (big juicy target for player pirates).
Buckethead bot
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2014-05-05 00:22:46 UTC
so there is a hope that a combat/ninja salvagin ship will be featured in game
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#156 - 2014-05-05 01:59:09 UTC
Like to concept, not sure if I want to risk a ship that is millions over my venture for gas harvesting in WH's but ok. I am sure that we will be gaming its advantages for a while.

Now could we get a ship that would boost ... so I can retire my hurricane gas harvester booster. A role I am certain it was never intended for and one that I am sure is loosing me standing with my Brutor tribe for such an affront. Shocked

I await the rest of the line to see what comes and hope it is on the list.

Sven Viko VIkolander
Tang Ping
#157 - 2014-05-05 03:25:06 UTC
I really want to PVP (for lols) in this ship, but I'm not excited about training mining frigate V to fly it. I don't think the dev blog confirmed that the expedition frigate skill will require mining frigate V, though, but I'm assuming it will.

From what I've read here, both the Prospect and the boost to low/null mining seem like steps in the right direction, but not enough to really motivate either mining in low sec (specifically) or bringing a prospect to do it.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#158 - 2014-05-05 06:16:51 UTC
Janden Rynd wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Janden Rynd wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
i'm not trying anything. there are already covert ops ships in the game, with three lows, which farmers don't bother using.


But the Venture is a common ship among the farmers; they tend to mine while farming. If you give them the ability to use a covops cloak and get an even better total stab count, do you really think that's going to reduce the farming, or make it any easier for real FW types to shoot them down?

i don't even remember if complexes have asteroids in them. i do not care if a farmer scrapes an extra million isk's worth off a rock while they bore themselves and everyone else to tears. i imagine the majority of farmers will continue to use the minimum-skill minimum-cost cloaky stabbed atrons and ventures.

fw plexing (still) needs attention but i feel that shouldn't stop us getting a new spaceship that's unlikely to affect plexing meta in any meaningful way


The bolded part is where we disagree then; I see this ship as having a much more meaningful impact than you seem to suppose.

marcel72 wrote:
The "real FW types" should HTFU, IMO.


So you're in favor of making plex farmers even more uncatchable and unkillable, and letting them operate at virtually no risk in return for high rewards?

FW farmers have a large effect on system control, but they have no skin in the game. They are not in FW to fight for one side or the other, they just go where the ISK is. FW was supposed to be about using PvE mechanics to encourage PvP encounters. Instead, FW farmers exploit the PvE mechanics to make ISK while avoiding the PvP risk, but they still alter the system status, arguably even more than any of the FW PvPers.

I wouldn't have an issue with all of this if it were possible for the FW PvPers to actually engage the farmers with a reasonable amount of effort. As it is now, it is possible to catch the farmers, but very difficult to do so, and the farmers operate at very low risk. Running in a Prospect instead of a Venture will further reduce that risk the farmers face by making it even easier for them to avoid PvP, all the while taking advantage of a system that is supposed to promote PvP.

The Prospect undermines the fundamental principle of risk vs. reward as it exists in FW. This balance is already skewed, and it most certainly did not need an even further nudge towards low risk/high reward activities.

I'm curious - What do you consider a "Real FW Type" my FW alt has quite a few losses in plexes and funnily enough, not 1 to another FW player. Only 1 of those kills was 1 on 1, the rest were to small gangs of roaming neuts looking for easy prey in plexes.

This is the nature of FW and eve as a whole really, there is nothing "fair" about eve pvp, there is nothing that says it has to be.

Maybe plex farming is too easy by fitting stabs and cloaks BUT maybe people do that because if they didn't they are fair game for every neut that enters the system. FW has less to do with Faction Warfare than it does plex farming to make isk and neutral gangs / fleets hunting for FW kills.

When I see people (plural) complaining in local because the condor they just warped in on got away because he was stabbed and how it isn't fair, I can't help but laugh - What is fair about 5 neuts landing on a frigate in a plex and killing it?

Personally, I hope this new ship gets used by every plexer and eventually the neuts that thrive on FW kills will get bored and go elsewhere.
Then and only then might FW become about FW and not neutrals killboard stats and plexing for isk.

2 Militias facing off to fight for a system would be worth being involved in.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Droidyk
Maniacal Miners INC
Name Pending Coalition
#159 - 2014-05-05 07:24:50 UTC
I really love the color theme of the Prospect, a different industrial flavors in there, kind of oily, and more raw. Awesome.
Dark Rum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2014-05-05 08:04:59 UTC
I like the sound of this ship, I will be keen to try it out.