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Rorqual - I missed the fanfest stream.

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Author
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#81 - 2014-05-22 07:33:53 UTC
Mordred Banks wrote:
Idea:
Rorqual with Reinforced mode. When it gets to 30% shield-> goes into reinforced for half an hour.

That would prevent Titan insta-blaps and would force Gangs to either stick around or to come back later. It also gives time for the Rorq pilot to batphone for help.


Cool. That means only people who're able to bat-phone for help will be able to make use of one. Are there many indy toons or renters with a bat phone?
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#82 - 2014-05-29 02:15:45 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Mordred Banks wrote:
Idea:
Rorqual with Reinforced mode. When it gets to 30% shield-> goes into reinforced for half an hour.

That would prevent Titan insta-blaps and would force Gangs to either stick around or to come back later. It also gives time for the Rorq pilot to batphone for help.


Cool. That means only people who're able to bat-phone for help will be able to make use of one. Are there many indy toons or renters with a bat phone?


It would also mean that SC hotdrops are very unlikely, since they have to stay for 30min+ to get the kill. I would assume PL, N3, BL and CFC (to name a few) would be willing to kill some supers that sit idle in space waiting :P
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#83 - 2014-05-29 12:52:48 UTC
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Mordred Banks wrote:
Idea:
Rorqual with Reinforced mode. When it gets to 30% shield-> goes into reinforced for half an hour.

That would prevent Titan insta-blaps and would force Gangs to either stick around or to come back later. It also gives time for the Rorq pilot to batphone for help.


Cool. That means only people who're able to bat-phone for help will be able to make use of one. Are there many indy toons or renters with a bat phone?


It would also mean that SC hotdrops are very unlikely, since they have to stay for 30min+ to get the kill. I would assume PL, N3, BL and CFC (to name a few) would be willing to kill some supers that sit idle in space waiting :P


I'm reminded of Stephen Jay Gould's "non-overlapping magisteria". It's the same with mining and PvP. They really don't go together no-matter how far you're willing torture game play features.
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#84 - 2014-05-30 19:43:08 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
the buffs that would make it worth putting a rorqual in a belt would need to be insane

and impractical.. agree.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#85 - 2014-06-02 08:29:05 UTC
With the compression, being done by a pos module Rorq compression becomes a bit of a novelty.

I like the idea about giving it multiple cores or just a an extra core for building stuff.

Just going to speedball;

-Capital mining drones or a massive bonus to them? They atm a weird stepchild that is not used.

-Capital mining lazors, risk vs. revard. Will you keep the rorq deployed to get that ore? - Might end up in whole fleets of deployed rorqs and the death of other mining ships.

-Give it a module so it will suck the ore out of the oreholds of the ships on field, if they got a similar module?

-Bigger orebay so it can be used as a hauler. The 250k is cutting it a bit short imo.







Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#86 - 2014-06-02 10:06:20 UTC
Lurifax wrote:
With the compression, being done by a pos module Rorq compression becomes a bit of a novelty.

I like the idea about giving it multiple cores or just a an extra core for building stuff.

Just going to speedball;

-Capital mining drones or a massive bonus to them? They atm a weird stepchild that is not used.

-Capital mining lazors, risk vs. revard. Will you keep the rorq deployed to get that ore? - Might end up in whole fleets of deployed rorqs and the death of other mining ships.

-Give it a module so it will suck the ore out of the oreholds of the ships on field, if they got a similar module?

-Bigger orebay so it can be used as a hauler. The 250k is cutting it a bit short imo.


I know plenty of people who sit a Rorq in a "safe pos" - that they don't own or have rights to use, just the field password. So the Rorq is still needed for compression.
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#87 - 2014-06-02 10:08:08 UTC
That makes some sence. But what do they do with the compressed ore ? Just curious.
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
#88 - 2014-06-03 06:41:54 UTC
GsyBoy wrote:
I like to read into it a bit deeper and speculate.

What will make me WANT rather than NEED to drop my Rorqual in a belt implies that if there is a closure to offgrid bonuses and option they will be giving will be more appealing and relatively ISK efficient.

So I asked my industrial head to think about what would make me WANT to put a Rorqual in the belt…other than bait. (Battle Rorqual Forever)

Increased defences – Nope, if you get dropped by 20+ supers they will kill you
Increased offenses – Nope, see above and would create a monster of a PVP ship, not CCP’s intention.
Immunity to EW – Nah, anyone knows you don’t need a point to hold a Rorqual, plenty of time whilst in industrial mode if caught to apply neuts (standard fit for BLOPs if know target) and bumping and bubbles work well. Still doesn’t make me WANT to put in belt.
Cyno Inhibitor – Nope, prevents drop but also prevents backup and can still light off grid and warp to in time whilst in industrial mode.
Scan Inhibiter – Nope, belt on D Scan and deployable mod available.

That leaves me with the only two viable answers.

Reinforced Mode – Timer of Invulnerability
POS Mode – Creates a force field in the belt which mining ships can move into if baddies come a hunting.

However this would be useless for any alliance unable to escalate so….

POS mode where the force field remains for a while after deactivation, maybe 30 secs, allowing the Rorqual to warp off when out of mode and a bonus to Rorqual of invulnerability to bubbles.

Note if the exhumers remain in the shield after bubbles deployed then these will be bubbled and lost so not a complete safe haven, need still to get safe if smell an incoming storm.

Sorted you can close thread.


While details may vary, this type of thinking is the only thing that would ever get anyone to put a Rorq in a belt. Yeah, it would be total game changer for mining. But nothing short of this will cause any kind of change.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#89 - 2014-06-03 09:03:02 UTC
Ashala Arcsylver wrote:
Call me crazy but I think they should rethink the role the Rorqual plays in eve.

We already have a mining boosting ship in the Orca. I think in the spirit of the tiericide changes that the rorqual should have a different role. I think it should become more of a mobile factory ship.

Forget the mining bonuses. Keep the compression, add production and research lines to it but less than a POS is capable of doing.

And most importantly. Allow the darn thing to be flyable in all security space. High, Low and Null. This would give the little guy something to use instead of a POS that is a giant wardeced target to use to be able to produce and research as well as a great mobile platform for exploration production. I.E. in the upcoming player gates they could fly the Rorqual through the new gate and immediately begin producing the entry level infrastructure in the new system.

Perhaps use the idea of the temporary POS type shield while it is in production mode but of course if the ship is mobile or docked all production ceases until it is put back into factory mode.

This way the Orca is still relevant, the Rorqual gets a new job that is actually useful and not OP like some of the ideas out there, and the little guy gets another less cost intensive way to get into industry than having to feed a POS or play the production in the boondocks in order to compete against the big dogs of industry when they are trying to get going.


That would go well. Undock, install jobs. Dock.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#90 - 2014-06-03 11:05:32 UTC
Lurifax wrote:
That makes some sence. But what do they do with the compressed ore ? Just curious.


Personally I haul it to station. Miasmos can carry over 60 blocks a time in the ore hold.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#91 - 2014-06-03 11:09:17 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:

While details may vary, this type of thinking is the only thing that would ever get anyone to put a Rorq in a belt. Yeah, it would be total game changer for mining. But nothing short of this will cause any kind of change.


Still not a good idea. I mean it's "here's a target the only problem with it is you've got to wait a bit longer before you can engage it". In reality here's what will happen:

(1) Nobody will use a Rorqual.
(2) ...


Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
#92 - 2014-06-04 00:53:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Paynus Maiassus
Victoria Sin wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:

While details may vary, this type of thinking is the only thing that would ever get anyone to put a Rorq in a belt. Yeah, it would be total game changer for mining. But nothing short of this will cause any kind of change.


Still not a good idea. I mean it's "here's a target the only problem with it is you've got to wait a bit longer before you can engage it". In reality here's what will happen:

(1) Nobody will use a Rorqual.
(2) ...





My opening clause was "details may vary". Basically, all the various POS bubble ideas are telling us the Rorqual will need some kind of 'god mode' in order to ever go into a belt. You can't give it more tank or more drones or whatever. It will need a god mode. There have been a number of various ideas about what some sort of POS bubble would be like:

- Whether other ships would be able to enter the bubble/benefit from the god mode, and whether said ships would only be industrial ships or whatever.

- What sort of activities the Rorqual could engage in from within the bubble/while the god mode is active. Can it tractor from within it? Can it remote shield rep from within it? Can it target ships and send drones from within it?

- Will the bubble/god mode be attached to the Industrial Core or not?

- What would the activation/deactivation mechanics of the bubble/god mode be? Can it align from within it? Can it keep it's god mode going a couple seconds after 'deactivation' in order to warp or cyno out?

- How intense should the god mode/bubble itself be? Total invulnerability? Millions of EHP and reinforcement timer?

The bullets above are all open to debate. I am not specifically defining all the details of any sort of POS bubble or other type of god mode. However, I am just saying that adding standard offense and defense and tweaking speed/alignment, giving EWAR immunity that does nothing against HICs etc. will not change the Rorqual's situation. Any change to the Rorq must tilt the risk/reward factor down to something like 1% risk, massive reward, if it is going to be used in belts. Various incarnations of the bubble/god mode involve a reinforcement timer so that a Rorqual deployment could actually be a conflict generator. Others just remove the Rorqual from the risk/reward play style that Eve is known for. But in the case of the Rorqual, would it be such an egregious sin to force the combat pilots to go shoot something that can shoot back?

The Rorqual will need to introduce a radical new variable in order to completely change the landscape for low sec and null sec mining if there's doing to be any change to the mining dynamics in PvP space at all.

Short of a god mode for the Rorqual I am just going to keep sitting in low sec surrounded by virgin ice fields. That's just a fact.
Binah 369
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2014-07-07 16:10:45 UTC
I personally don't see what all the hub-bub is about. I think all ships of industry should be put in as much harm's way as possible. I think JF's should ONLY be able to cyno into enemy POSs, where they have to sit there and tank a deathstar; waiting for the Calvary to show up. Jumping to a friendly POS or station is for whimps. As for the Rorqual.....I think the core cycle should last 25mins, and during that time the ship should broadcast a beacon across the entire region with a jump portal generated right next to it that anyone can jump on. /end sarcasm.

CCP....forcing a Rorqual out into a belt is the WORST idea ever. end of story, morning glory.

Fozzie....are your friends seriously whining so much about killmails that you have to feed them crap changes like this? Tell them to man up and go fight a real fight.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#94 - 2014-07-07 19:35:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Ok so Fozzie says the changes will make you "WANT" to take a Roqual into a belt. Not it will force you to, but it will be so worthwhile you will want to.

We can also look at other industrial ships to see how far they might be willing to go.

We know that the change will not make a Roqual invulnerable, or impossible to kill, that would be equally unbalanced.

So what changes could be made to the Roqual, that will not only make it worthwhile to bring into a belt, but leave it vulnerable to attack at the same time?

if we find that answer, we have our update. Why not make the Roqual a viable, if not sub-par, combat ship.

Really, if you stop to think about. What is the problem with an industrial ship being able to be fit for PVP. Perhaps that is the real answer.

Say for example a Skiff could be fit with a very respectable PVP fit. Not better than a ship designed for it, but enough to make gankers stop and think, is this miner worth my time?, possibly a PVP fit ship, it could just be a trap? Or even give it both, maybe allow strip miners to target other ships,do damage, or tackle, perhaps disabling their warp drive, or preventing capitals from jumping. Something to add combat utility.

the same for a Roqual, give it combat viability, by sacrificing industrial utility it could be a real threat in combat, not just a very expensive pinata

Ok, so that could result in Roqual's and mining ships being used in PVP. So what, does it really matter? Would having additional options really be a bad thing? What difference would it make if a perfectly viable PVP ship was primarily intended to be a mining ship, or other industrial ship. let the lines blurr, let industrial ships be viable for PVP, even if it is at the expense of their primary purpose. After all, i have seen some pretty impressive PVP fits for ventures, even the new DST's can be fit for low level mission running, with comparable DPS to the ships normally used, but a way stronger tank, and a huge cargo hold. anyone remember the battle badger, or try running low level missions in a Bustard, two light missile launchers, and a 100k ehp, or very good active tank. going toe to toe with most frigates, or even some cruisers, this thing could win. and you won't run out of room for loot.

My point is, if the Roqual was changed in a way that made it viable as a PVP ship, really, why would that be a problem. the same has already been done with other industrial ships, why not the roqual, and for that matter why not all mining ships?

As long as it was not superior to the ships it would be competing with, I don't see a problem. Sure its primary design will always be geared to ward industrial use, but that does not mean it can not have a potential alternative use for PVP.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#95 - 2014-07-07 22:11:42 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
My point is, if the Roqual was changed in a way that made it viable as a PVP ship, really, why would that be a problem. the same has already been done with other industrial ships, why not the roqual, and for that matter why not all mining ships?

As long as it was not superior to the ships it would be competing with, I don't see a problem. Sure its primary design will always be geared to ward industrial use, but that does not mean it can not have a potential alternative use for PVP.

The main problem would be granting it abilities that are reasonable in a mining context, but potentially overpowered in a PvP context.

Example: The Rorqual can run a Capital Shield Booster without capacitor via three cap injectors. The Rorqual's huge cargo compared to other capitals makes this tactic viable.

Some real creativity will be required to give the Rorqual abilities that make it both useful and balanced.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#96 - 2014-07-07 23:12:29 UTC
The industrial core just needs to die. 90% rorqual problems solved right there.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#97 - 2014-07-08 10:08:07 UTC
Just want to mention I'm keeping an eye on this thread, carry on citizens, those are not the droïds you were looking for.
Mashka Cybertrona
Imperial Dawn.
#98 - 2014-07-08 10:49:43 UTC
rorqual to become a capital sized exhumer?

give it a capital sized ice/stripminer. Its function then would be to boost/haul/mine. I'd like to see the industrial core reworked so the rorqual can deploy for much longer periods of time and essentially become a small deployable station for industrial/mining purposes. Think of it like a large mobile deport designed to assist miners.

It would have to have some kind of reinforcement mechanic to prevent it from just dying to hotdrops all over new eden. Maybe even able to dock 2-3 players inside it, keeping the same restrictions of industrial class ships.

It would be very cool to be able to have real mining expeditions in eve.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#99 - 2014-07-08 10:54:20 UTC

Listen, any/all ideas that involve making the Rorqual a "viable PvP ship" still fail due to something called escalation. Blops, wrecking ball, 10 supers, 50 Titans, you have absolutely no idea what's going to come through that cyno. Well OK you do if you have a spy in his coms.

So no. Absolutely no combat or shield related addition to the Rorqual would make me want to keep it around in a belt. Here's what would:

(1) Much faster align and warp time
(2) Bigger bonus for its gang links when on grid
(3) No requirement to siege it to get (2)

Basically all of those 3 things together would make putting one on field worthwhile. The way the miner works is he mines and watches/listens closely to intel. If there's a red 3, 2 or 1 jump away he'll GTFO. If he's in something that can't GTFO, it's probably going to die, so he'll only ever have put one into a field once before in his Eve career and it's probably on his KB.

But here's the question:

Why can I put a Damnation next to a POS shield and get full bonuses from its hull, whereas in order to get a full bonus for mining I have to fly this massive fat 2.5b capital? It makes absolutely no sense.
Ealon Musque
Capital Chaps
#100 - 2014-07-08 13:43:43 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Absolutely no combat or shield related addition to the Rorqual would make me want to keep it around in a belt. Here's what would:

(1) Much faster align and warp time
(2) Bigger bonus for its gang links when on grid
(3) No requirement to siege it to get (2)

Basically all of those 3 things together would make putting one on field worthwhile. The way the miner works is he mines and watches/listens closely to intel. If there's a red 3, 2 or 1 jump away he'll GTFO. If he's in something that can't GTFO, it's probably going to die, so he'll only ever have put one into a field once before in his Eve career and it's probably on his KB.


This thankyouverymuch.