Science & Industry

I have a question .....

With all the changes and tweaks going on has there been any attempt of addressing the existance of T2 BPOs?

I have seen multiple posts on this but no DEV blogs or replies.

It would be nice if this was addressed so we could have a real market based on supply and demand. Instead we have artifically deflated markets for any item that has a T2 bpo thats actively used.

It's discouraging when you go to invent something and discover that its selling for cheaper than the cost of the data cores required to even attempt invention.

Its even worse than that because even if you take your time and do the math to calulate what is profitable. After spending time training and resources producing T2 items someone can start production with a long idle T2 BPO and undercut you easily. (This could happen if someone activates and dormant account - buys the bpo from someone whos not been using it or just decides to dust off that bpo thats been collecting dust in thier hanger.)

I don't care about the lottery or how things got the way they are --- My problem with what is happening here and now.

The only point people ever make against this is "go buy a bpo" but my point is not about an individual -- its about the system itself. The BPOs affect the way the market works far beyond the people that own them. It would be the equivalent of having a special set of T1 bpos that didn't require tritanium while everyone that didnt own one was stuck with higher production costs.

If CCP does not want to change the current situation can a list of the which items have a T2 BPOs be released so we know what items to ignore when inventing and training invention skills.

Any sort of DEV relpy would be nice. Even if its just to say that CCP likes the current system.

*** Edit : The main reason I have done this is because I see invention as a profession like mining or marketing. It takes a lot of investment and sp to do invention well. On top of this I have seen nothing about this issue from CCP in blog posts or on the forums. CCP admited that the lottery and following situation was bad but has done nothing to rectify the stuation.

Possible soultions - - - - - - - - - - - -

1) Add datacores as a cost (relative to how many datacores it takes per quantity with lvl5 skills) to T2 bpos and make them all -4 ME -- They would still have the benefit of unlimited runs and no invention steps to deal with.

2) Remove them from the game and pay the owners the isk values that they paid for them.

3) Remove them from the game and pay the owners some multiple of what the items cost on market or an approxamation of what they would sell for on contracts relative to past sales.

4) Combine 2 and 3 and pay the higher value

5) Seed T2 BPOs on the market and get rid of invention completey (refundung invention skills).

New suggestions appreciated

T2 BPOs are not an "IWIN" button for BPO holders.

Do the maths, you'll see that the (seriously) limited number of BPO for a particular item don't allow for enough things to be made to satiate market demand (on a majority of items, there are outliers that are either simply under-utilised because Meta 4 Items are better)

Personally I couldn't give a monkeys about the T2 bpo's, but I know one thing.

Imagine you have a T2 BPO, whether or not you won it in a lottery, was left it as a player quit, or paid for it with good old isk.

How pissed off will you be if they then take it away, since they're not a seeded item, who decides what it's worth to compensate what could well have been a multi-billion isk purchase?

As with life, there will always be someone out there with better and brighter tools than you, it's up to you how you deal with that competition. If you can't compete on price for 1 thing, try inventing and selling something else.

I bet the OP is one of those dumbasses that's actually looking at an item(s) which don't have a BPO and is mad about bpo owners.

Those damn Hic BPO owners. Not fair

Do the math. Even with the failure rate almost every item that is not a ship and hasa T2 BPO is more profitable to invent and build than items without a T2 BPO.

As for ships, well there are decryptors which make a lot of ships very profitable to invent and build even with the huge ME penalty. Now if it's a ship that sells like 2 a day in Jita then even the T2 BPO owner isn't making any profit on it.


At least the OP gets bonus points for having a really catchy stupid name.

Can you provide any numbers to back up the assumption that it's cheaper to manufacture off a T2 BPO? Just asking because after perusing a few of these threads I have'nt seen any yet and a lot of people seem to just take it as being fact.

cheers

And then you realize it's an item that doesn't have a T2 BPO, because some numbskull inventor didn't do the math.

I have T2 Bpo, I also invent the same item - I make more money from he inventions than the t2 bpo - can I get a cookie

anyone who owns a t2 bpo or cares they exist is a moron

Breaker77 and Servitor 001 are saying thatt T2 BPOs cost more to manufacture with than invetion --

All invetion has a -4 ME (unless you use the decryptors which add millions to the cost and can even make the ME worse)
Then you have to add the cost of copying
Then you have to add the cost of the data cores
Then you have to add the rate of failure

T2 BPOs can be researched so they use less materials and they dont require all the incidental costs of invention.

---

I'll give one example and tell me if I'm missing something.

T2 Veldspar minig crystals
Invetion takes -
Laser Physics datacore - 2 - Buy price in Amarr 185,000 apiece
Electronics engineering datacore 2 - Buy price in Amarr 210,000 apiece
For a total of 790,000 per attempt

The T2 veld crystals are selling for 60,000 apiece
Thats 600,000 for a 10 run copy

Now ignoring the cost of
Running the invention
The time spent copying
The cost of materials TO ACTUALLY BUILD IT
And the rate of failure wich would require MORE datacores

You begin with a 190,000 isk LOSS per 10 run print to even TRY to invent
With a 50% failure rate thats 380,000 LOSS before you add the 220,000+ cost for everything else

T2 BPO not even researched takes (THESE ARE SELL PRICES rounded up just for worst case profit on BPO)
28 Nocxium -- (482*28) 13496
1 hypersyanptic fiber -- 5000
1 veldspar crystal -- 15,000
and 1.5% of a R.A.M. Elec -- (45000*0.015) 675

for a total cost of 34171 isk per unit
60000 - 34171 = 25829 profit per unit
and profit would only go up if the person set buy orders and build thier own t1 crystals

So for 10 units like above there is a minimum of 258290 profit for ten units with a T2 BPO
And for Invention its a 600,000+ loss

THIS is why I want a DEV comment on this.
I don't know who is producing these crystals so I cannot say that it MUST be T2 BPOs.
MAYBE people are REALLY this stupid
MAYBE T2 BPOs are not being used to kill this market
MAYBE T2 BPOs dont have any affect on any items in the game and everything is fine.

OR maybe the current system is FUBARed, so the only step now is to figure out HOW we can address the issue and make the market fair for everyone.

---

AS far as Ideas for solutions there are many ways to address it

1) Add datacores as a cost (relative to how many datacores it takes per unit with lvl5 skills) to T2 bpos and make them all -4 ME -- They would still have the benefit of unlimited runs and no invention steps to deal with.

2) Remove them from the game and pay the owners the isk values that they paid for them.

3) Remove them from the game and pay the owners some multiple of what the items cost on market or an approxamation of what they would sell for on contrats relative to past sales.

4) combine 2 and 3 and pay the higher value