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Dev Blog: Team Up: Industry Work Teams

First post First post First post
Author
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#521 - 2014-05-01 04:47:47 UTC
Iorga Eeta wrote:
Let's pretend you are in the room with Steve Jobs and Sergey Brin in 2006.

Steve: Sergey, let's not compete for each others workers. It'll drive up costs for both of us!
Sergey: That's a great idea Steve! Let's not allow normal market forces affect the cost for our workers.
Steve: Not just our workers, our agreement will likely cause sticky wages for all Silicon Valley workers.


Wait, was this a joke? You are aware that pretty much exactly this happened and it's a big controversy right now? I'm never sure just how meta people are being...
Yosagi Yojimbo
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#522 - 2014-05-01 04:56:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Yosagi Yojimbo
Will we see the members of these teams moving through space in their ships as they travel from one location to the next?
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#523 - 2014-05-01 05:11:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Cultural Enrichment wrote:
What a lot of people dont seem to realize is the shift from planning (finding your productio niche and feeding it week after week) to decision-making. You are leaving a system involving (rather simple) optimisation problems to a system focusing on (complex by nature) competitive cooperation problems. If this doesnt makes you feel good about all the idiots you'll be able to **** over, you're an idiot yourself.


I agree that this is true. I disagree that it is defacto a good thing for the game.

EVE has no shortage of systems that already reward "competitive cooperation problems[olving]". Why, specifically, does industry also need to be turned into another one?

Industry was, historically, a system that rewarded people who were patient and good at planning and good with spreadsheets and number crunching. Exactly as you say; you found your niche and then optimized the hell out of it until you reached a comfortable steady-state.

Yes, these changes will turn industry into a more competitive, lumpy landscape. It will reward people who excel at winning that style of gameplay. I get that those folks are very excited about this. But does EVE really need another way to reward people who excel at that gameplay? They already don't lack for content and options.

I think CCP is underestimating the "silent majority" of industrialists that chose that option specifically BECAUSE they suck at competitive gameplay and were looking for a somewhat more stable and predictable way to participate in the sandbox. You can say HTFU and "that's not EVE" and whatever you want, but to get horribly cliche for a moment, I think you'll find it's going to be pretty boring when only the wolves remain and all the sheep are gone.

So, is the change as you describe? Yeah, I think so. Is this a good thing long term for EVE? Ehh.... I'm really on the fence here and gut feeling, to me, suggests no it won't be.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#524 - 2014-05-01 05:22:26 UTC
Well, I'm going to admit to being a skeptic.

I think this system can and will be exploited by the alliances, simply because they wield the largest coordinated industry investment, and thus can control the auctions.

A noob industrialist on his/her own isn't going to stand a chance of affecting the outcome of an auction. Nor will a small industrial corp. Nor will any random and uncoordinated number of high-sec industrialists, most of whom will be bidding against each other, to pull the teams to different systems.

So, I see the best teams ending up in the systems used by the alliance industrialists - and pretty much staying there. Due to the scale of alliance manufacturing, they also happen to be the ones who are most likely to benefit from the gains from the teams, thus they are the most likely to be able to absorb the cost of outbidding everyone else.

Now, this result, in of itself, is neither good nor bad, but I do think it is going to end up quickly converging "teams" to a mostly static number of systems. Ie. my true skepticism is about whether or not this system will actually be "dynamic".

Perhaps there should be a degree of randomness in the process?

Say, a bid improves the chances of a team ending up in a given system, but the highest bid does not make it a certainty. For example, if the bids are 90M ISK for Jita, 9M ISK for Dodixie, and 1M ISK for Rens, there would be a 90% chance of the team endiing up in Jita, 9% chance in Dodixie, and 1% chance in Rens.

The guys with the most ISK to bid still have the advantage, but at least the guys with less ISK still have a chance, too.
Anders Madeveda
Usque Ad Mortem
#525 - 2014-05-01 05:26:26 UTC
Massive and virtually worthless Isk sink, CCP why do you think any industrialists want to cooperatively bid on labor talent that will have a net effect of zero? (Yes I'm getting the benefit but so is everyone in my direct vicinity i.e. No Benefit). To put a finer point on it, if its being built in the same system chances are its being sold at the same market so any advantage gained by corp "A" is negated at market because corp "B" realized the same efficiency.

Yes this is a unique idea and I'm glad you've put Industry front and center but some of the changes make me wonder if any of the Devs make Eve Industry their gameplay? This concept is so unnecessary with the open list of pressing failures and aggravations players currently deal with. The teaser with the Industry survey lead many of us to believe there would be some bonus to encourage cooperative manufacturing relationships, obviously we were wrong but maybe thats the angle CCP should look at instead of this thinly veiled Isk pit.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#526 - 2014-05-01 07:04:26 UTC
Yongtau Naskingar wrote:
Quote:
The team becomes immediately available for hire in the winning system.

I can't send a few bits and bytes to my POS in system anymore, but a bunch of people travel without the help of a capsuleer halfway across the galaxy? Harumpf.

It seems to me like convoluted system that'll do very little in the end. Big alliances will just buy up the teams and that'll be the end of it.


Hard pressed to find a better example of someone who has jumped to conclusions without actually reading all the information. With a little over 4,000 teams available at any one time, they will not all be controlled by big alliances. While I don't doubt goonswarm, PL, or some other group getting it in their mind to 'buy up ALL the teams', or at least all the ones giving bonuses to certain areas, a few industrious individuals could very quickly make this an incredibly expensive and fruitless strategy, by selectively bidding up teams to the point where said buyout group would be shelling out too much for each team.

Provided that CCP doesn't do something stupid, like allowing the minimum bid on teams to be increased by 0.01 isk, I think this system will work out well.
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#527 - 2014-05-01 07:27:01 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Yongtau Naskingar wrote:
Quote:
The team becomes immediately available for hire in the winning system.

I can't send a few bits and bytes to my POS in system anymore, but a bunch of people travel without the help of a capsuleer halfway across the galaxy? Harumpf.

It seems to me like convoluted system that'll do very little in the end. Big alliances will just buy up the teams and that'll be the end of it.


Hard pressed to find a better example of someone who has jumped to conclusions without actually reading all the information. With a little over 4,000 teams available at any one time, they will not all be controlled by big alliances. While I don't doubt goonswarm, PL, or some other group getting it in their mind to 'buy up ALL the teams', or at least all the ones giving bonuses to certain areas, a few industrious individuals could very quickly make this an incredibly expensive and fruitless strategy, by selectively bidding up teams to the point where said buyout group would be shelling out too much for each team.

Provided that CCP doesn't do something stupid, like allowing the minimum bid on teams to be increased by 0.01 isk, I think this system will work out well.


Can it be gamed? To some extent, yes. It all depends on how much big players (groups) want to spend to do it. But some times price isn't the issue. Burn Jita for example. It's not about ISK efficiency. In that same regard, if certain groups want to try and buy up all the top teams and choose to pay any price just so you can't have them, that may be possible for a time. But CCP can always expand the number of available teams that spawn in order to correct this. It could become a test of wills, but in the end CCP can break them if they choose to do so.
E6o5
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#528 - 2014-05-01 07:36:05 UTC
so how do the teams get from there home system to their destination, e.g. a wormhole?
does any player needs to actually ship them there (which would be cool as the could get killed or taken and put to another system/task) or do they magically spawn in system?
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#529 - 2014-05-01 07:48:09 UTC
E6o5 wrote:
so how do the teams get from there home system to their destination, e.g. a wormhole?
does any player needs to actually ship them there (which would be cool as the could get killed or taken and put to another system/task) or do they magically spawn in system?


Magic, or whatever you want to consider unseen movement. They just appear once the auction has been won. Interdiction has been suggested but not on the table based on dev comments
E6o5
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#530 - 2014-05-01 07:54:40 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
E6o5 wrote:
so how do the teams get from there home system to their destination, e.g. a wormhole?
does any player needs to actually ship them there (which would be cool as the could get killed or taken and put to another system/task) or do they magically spawn in system?


Magic, or whatever you want to consider unseen movement. They just appear once the auction has been won. Interdiction has been suggested but not on the table based on dev comments


which is pretty stupid Sad needing them to escort or transport would lead to some content.

also, CCP should add a FAQ to the first post of the discussion where they add questions with the dev answers. many don't have the time to read the entire thread to see if their questions have already been asked and aswered ...
Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands
ORPHANS OF EVE
#531 - 2014-05-01 08:00:47 UTC
Has there been any talk of expanding the 'team' concept to hauling/courier contracts?
zyathussi
message number 5
#532 - 2014-05-01 08:20:52 UTC
what if these inferno drugs actually were a producable item, and teams would flock to the one providing them with them?

like, they are hired for system xy, but if i want to take part in "exploiting" them, i have to have x amount per job in my hangar.
Tatjana Jouhinen
Doomheim
#533 - 2014-05-01 08:27:01 UTC
Have you considered to have a accumulated bid system instead (the system with the highest total amount of bids gets the team)?
Might have to adjust the cap on workfoce cost scaling then, as otherwise most teams might sit in Jita forever.

I think, this would give moreincentive to cooperative gameplay.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#534 - 2014-05-01 09:23:17 UTC
zyathussi wrote:
what if these inferno drugs actually were a producable item, and teams would flock to the one providing them with them?


Uh … the people "receiving" the drugs aren't necessarily doing so voluntarily. The teams won't be flocking to the folks who offer the lowest price on Inferno, they'll be strong-armed, coerced or straight hoodwinked into working for the highest bidder. Then they work hard for a month. Then they die.
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#535 - 2014-05-01 10:22:58 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
The idea that winning bids allow public access to these teams seems odd. Why should the random player who didn't help bring a team to a particular solar system be allowed the derive any benefit at all? Bids should be placed on behalf of a corporation, maybe an alliance. Or, if you want to allow for random players to work together to win a bid, then allow for both public and private ownership. If a single player/corp/alliance wants to lure a team to their location, let them bid to do so. Otherwise this is just going to lead to other players riding the coattails of the players willing to put in the cost and effort to win a bid.



The idea is that the star system is bidding to bring this team to the system. Once the Team arrives they put them selves out for hire at a set price. The team would want as many jobs as they could get.

This IS cooperative industry, just not they way most of us expected. You get to cooperate with the rest of the star system to get the team, then everyone gets the benefit. I love the fact it forces you to cooperate with your competition!



The idea may be that the solar system is bidding, but the reality is probably more that just a few players coordinated to make that happen. Then after the fact, outsiders can move in and reap the benefits. I'm just saying that its OK to provide a public option, but it is equally OK to allow players/corps/alliance to make private bids as well.

Cooperation should be a choice. Allowing freeloaders should be a choice. But the option should always be available to bid high enough to gain the benefit for you and you alone as a form of advantage.


You can't look at this from a singular perspective.

You have to look at this in the perspective of the previous two dev blogs as, that in the context of the mess they have created. You can't look at teams as a separate entity from the whole system. The past dev blogs have introduced a cost scaling mechanic to systems that is public. You can't isolate yourself from it, and you can't insulate yourself from it either. Therefore, by the rules of the system they have created, neither should the benefits be private or made individually exclusive to entities contributing to the same public factors they introduced earlier.

Think of it as pollution. If you work in a system with high pollution (scaling installation costs), that is a contributing factor from everyone. If you have a system that cleans up pollution (teams in this case, a mechanic that scales down other production costs), that also benefits everyone. The wording they have chosen makes you think that you can separate these two things, but you can't. Teams are in context to the cost scaling mechanic and as they described it, a push/pull synergy to the system as a whole.

Having something private for corporations or individuals, that they can buy would have to be added as extra to this current push/pull system.

Myself, I just don't like the implementation. Too much money down for small scale operation. You would really need a large scale operation to outscale your costs and increase your profit margin by a much larger amount. It's bad for the small industrialist, good for people who have lots of capital to lay down as it is. It just screams power gaming to me. And we all know where the power in EVE comes from and that is PLEX + highsec or Alliance + nullsec. If you're not one of those two entities, you are better off in the current system not the new one.
BlackTalon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#536 - 2014-05-01 10:24:28 UTC
leave things a lone ccp why change stuff that worked for years
BlackTalon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#537 - 2014-05-01 10:31:10 UTC
Jesus CCP you got to be joking on this team stuff please wake up in time don't deploy this crap. What an load off xxxx never heard some think so silly in any game just let us build like we do silly team idea its worked for last 10 years leave it lone
drummendejef maaktnietuit
Ramm's RDI
Tactical Narcotics Team
#538 - 2014-05-01 10:57:40 UTC
When we (me and corp people) saw the name of the Dev Blog 'Teams' we hoped, well, we were almost certain, that we would be able to have serveral pilot's assisting each other on manufacturing/researching.


Maybe Offtopic:
I think it would be cool if we would be able to help each other making something. Research a BPO with serveral pilot's, to speed up the research time.

A system where you help making 1 capital ship. Everyone chooses a part they make, and everyone can see how long it will take to see what parts are needed. How much from the parts are already done ect ect.

Ontopic:

For what I understand, slots get more expensive, the more people are using them in 1 system.
The big systems will probably have most of the teams, because they have more people/iskies.

I'm afraid the slot prices in the systems with the teams will be higher, making the teams useless. But I probably didn't understand the Dev Blog this well.

Summer will show what it will look like :)
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#539 - 2014-05-01 10:59:42 UTC
zyathussi wrote:
what if these inferno drugs actually were a producable item, and teams would flock to the one providing them with them?


Nothing about players producing materials to sell to npc's is good for depth of economy. This is not the Eve way.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#540 - 2014-05-01 11:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Maduin Shi
The NPC team idea is a good one, but it will be offset by price changes so it is very possible that the net effect will be zero. It would be more interesting if these teams could be replaced by players.

Wouldn't it be awesome to have, say for example, a new booster line (Inferno Industry boosters?) and implants that would allow you to essentially "copy yourself" into a jump clone made specifically to do industry jobs?

Let me explain: Say instead of an NPC team, players were given the ability to use jump clones to impart similar or better bonuses vs. NPC laborer to do industry jobs through the use of booster consumables and implants. Then a player would "install" his jump clone to do the industry job and then clone jump into another jump clone to do other stuff (PvP, mining, hauling, etc).

Players in the same corporation or alliance would also be able to "install" their jump clones to augment or add various bonuses to the industry job. This could be done after the initial installation of the job.

Jump clones that were on boosters to enhance bonuses would suffer various penalties after a period of time or after the completion of the job, or the clones would simply "die" and be biomassed for extreme cases - like building a Titan. Jobs that are located at POSs or outposts that get destroyed would also result in the loss of the installed clones.

For small corporations and alliances, NPC teams would still be available at either a slightly lower bonus or slightly higher cost.

This idea would require perhaps some change or addition to the lore, in that, you would have to say a capsuleer would be "copying himself" for a period of time, instead of only being incarnated in one clone at any given time. And there could be various implants that would allow this to happen, at least temporarily. There may be a "carrying" penalty that follows the player through clone jumps to sustain the "copy" of himself that is doing the industry job.

I think this would be a great idea, although I'm not sure how easy it would be to code.