These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Team Up: Industry Work Teams

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#201 - 2014-04-30 14:29:17 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sigh....

You guys at CCP really don't get it, do you.

What industrialists want, in real life or otherwise:

1. Cost certainty
2. Minimized risk for return (both in capital investment and getting shot at)
3. Minimizing non-productive time (you know, like what you are supposedly addressing with the UI changes)

In all 3 areas, you have managed to create the exact opposite.

"cost certainty" isn't what industrialists want, it's what people who can't think want

as someone who can adapt i want cost uncertainty because then i can outcompete the idiots who can't figure stuff out without two years worth of experience being told exactly what to do



This, exactly. Right now you have to compete with the "minerals I mine are free!" crowd, and the 6000000 ME Raven BPO owner who hasn't run the numbers since late 2009. Or anyone that can open EVE IPH, look at the buttons for a few moments, and figure out what's profitable*.


By removing this rather drab system we pave the way for actual industrialists, who understand the game, to capture the market. Which is awesome.



*My friend's 12 year old niece was able to navigate the application quite well.
virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#202 - 2014-04-30 14:29:37 UTC
Kruull Death wrote:
Well, I can see a new way to grief:

You go to your enemy systems and start biding for the teams. With that the overall cost of manufacturing of your enemies keeps going higher and making harder to be competitive or even wining the bid and not leaving any available for the local dwellers.



I will contact you in game with my system, please grief me like this, you can hire as many teams in my system as you like and I promise a river of the sweetest tears you have ever tasted.
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#203 - 2014-04-30 14:31:30 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
I'm afraid I lost the post but someone made a good point in that the winning bidder should be able to access the team at base cost. This seems fair, but with bids piling up I would suggest the highest bidder among the system take the cake - Although then you might have to make a system to determine who's bidding what in what system, which has its own potential problems. To solve this you could make the "base" labor/build cost available to anyone who contributed at least a certain % of the pot (i.e. 5%). This would prevent people from "0.01isking" in order to get access to the lower (lower) build cost, but without contributing anything.



Of course, it remains to be seen how, if at all, players will need to be incentivized regarding bidding on teams. Personally I plan on bidding on day 1, but I have no idea how my price point compares to others - and would rather not share that information.


This is one of things we'll be monitoring very close after this goes live, as it is one of the biggest uncertainties. We did look into options to reward the bidder (after the CSM raised this issue). Unfortunately, there is no clean, elegant way to do it that either doesn't complicate the system a bunch or allows for weird exploits. So any good suggestions on this are welcome Smile

Of course, if freeloading turns out to be stifling the system too much, we will have to bite the bullet on complicating the system to counter it, but we want to avoid it if possible.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#204 - 2014-04-30 14:31:32 UTC
Kruull Death wrote:
Well, I can see a new way to grief:

You go to your enemy systems and start biding for the teams. With that the overall cost of manufacturing of your enemies keeps going higher and making harder to be competitive or even wining the bid and not leaving any available for the local dwellers.

Also, what is not explained is the logic and how this will be done for nullsec. As you will have from t1 small ships to supercapitals production. not forgetting gas, modules, etc.

Fixing the UI is great but screwing the entire production process and making it a lot more expensive will raise prices of all manufactured items, with or without "teams".

Will also be a show stopper for beginners as it will be very complex. If you don't have an experienced bud in the game you most probably will never go into that industrialist.



Handing your adversary a free bonus is not a penalty. You don't HAVE to use teams.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2014-04-30 14:31:55 UTC
T3abag wrote:


The fun factor with this "feature" has gone from "un-fun" to "please stick a lemon juice coated rusty fork in my eye" un-fun.


Give it a few weeks and they'll be moving downwards from your eye...
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#206 - 2014-04-30 14:33:15 UTC
T3abag wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sigh....

You guys at CCP really don't get it, do you.

What industrialists want, in real life or otherwise:

1. Cost certainty
2. Minimized risk for return (both in capital investment and getting shot at)
3. Minimizing non-productive time (you know, like what you are supposedly addressing with the UI changes)

In all 3 areas, you have managed to create the exact opposite.

Cost certainty is absolutely impossible with all these changes.
Risk of capital because of #1 just shot through the roof, and that does not even begin to deal with the real chances of getting shot at all the high choke systems that exist in the game.
And as for minimizing non-productive time, well, just like bad industrialists think that minerals they mine are free, you guys at CCP must think that all the time is free that is involved in guessing the profitability of a job, and then hauling materials, blueprints, finished products, and now, ultimately POS's, all over the universe.

A dynamic landscape for industrialists, expecting them to pull up stakes every now and then and move operations is one of the most stupid things to ever come out of CCP. Of course, given that the null sec cartels can establish and strictly control who builds, what they build, and when they build at every single null sec station under their control, this whole industry overhaul works perfectly for them. Gee, it is almost like they handed you the whole industrial blueprint and said "Here, implement this."

You seriously think this all these changes actually make industry MORE enjoyable for players?
You guys are so far out in left field, you can't even see home plate.


This. It's already difficult to cost things like invention because of the chance based invention mechanic. The best you can do is approximate or average things like your blueprint/decryptor costs (which is something T2 BPO holders do not need to do). You then need to spend several days just making the stupid blueprints. Post patch, you will still need to do this because the UI does nothing to make this easier (it actually looks worse in the new UI).

I also have zero wish to move billions in blueprints around to find a new system.

The fun factor with this "feature" has gone from "un-fun" to "please stick a lemon juice coated rusty fork in my eye" un-fun.



Invention is not hard to price in the slightest. Some rather mid-level math (law of large numbers) and the formula means you have a base cost/run to work with, no matter how RNG spits out. Unless you're some peasant who cycles 3 invention jobs a week, or something. But then, this update, nor I, really care for you.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#207 - 2014-04-30 14:34:29 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
I'm afraid I lost the post but someone made a good point in that the winning bidder should be able to access the team at base cost. This seems fair, but with bids piling up I would suggest the highest bidder among the system take the cake - Although then you might have to make a system to determine who's bidding what in what system, which has its own potential problems. To solve this you could make the "base" labor/build cost available to anyone who contributed at least a certain % of the pot (i.e. 5%). This would prevent people from "0.01isking" in order to get access to the lower (lower) build cost, but without contributing anything.



Of course, it remains to be seen how, if at all, players will need to be incentivized regarding bidding on teams. Personally I plan on bidding on day 1, but I have no idea how my price point compares to others - and would rather not share that information.


This is one of things we'll be monitoring very close after this goes live, as it is one of the biggest uncertainties. We did look into options to reward the bidder (after the CSM raised this issue). Unfortunately, there is no clean, elegant way to do it that either doesn't complicate the system a bunch or allows for weird exploits. So any good suggestions on this are welcome Smile

Of course, if freeloading turns out to be stifling the system too much, we will have to bite the bullet on complicating the system to counter it, but we want to avoid it if possible.

Loyalty points? They do belong to an NPC corp don't they?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#208 - 2014-04-30 14:35:01 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sigh....

You guys at CCP really don't get it, do you.

What industrialists want, in real life or otherwise:

1. Cost certainty
2. Minimized risk for return (both in capital investment and getting shot at)
3. Minimizing non-productive time (you know, like what you are supposedly addressing with the UI changes)

In all 3 areas, you have managed to create the exact opposite.

"cost certainty" isn't what industrialists want, it's what people who can't think want

as someone who can adapt i want cost uncertainty because then i can outcompete the idiots who can't figure stuff out without two years worth of experience being told exactly what to do


LOL...like you needed any of these changes to outcompete.

You have been gifted the perfect platform , where you will have the greatest cost certainty of any group in the game, because you can strictly control access to all industry facilities in any station under your control. You will also be able to command the services of any team you want, or simply withhold the services from someone else, because of your infinite supply of ISK.
The only variable costs you will encounter will be raw material costs and the team costs. All other slot costs you will very quickly be able to lock down.

High sec, naturally, won't have that option.
And low sec, well, industry is finished there. I can just see it now, some low sec indy group bidding for a team, broadcasting the system they are operating in, and what they are building or researching.
Dirty Wrench
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#209 - 2014-04-30 14:35:24 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sigh....

You guys at CCP really don't get it, do you.

What industrialists want, in real life or otherwise:

1. Cost certainty
2. Minimized risk for return (both in capital investment and getting shot at)
3. Minimizing non-productive time (you know, like what you are supposedly addressing with the UI changes)

In all 3 areas, you have managed to create the exact opposite.

Cost certainty is absolutely impossible with all these changes.
Risk of capital because of #1 just shot through the roof, and that does not even begin to deal with the real chances of getting shot at all the high choke systems that exist in the game.
And as for minimizing non-productive time, well, just like bad industrialists think that minerals they mine are free, you guys at CCP must think that all the time is free that is involved in guessing the profitability of a job, and then hauling materials, blueprints, finished products, and now, ultimately POS's, all over the universe.

A dynamic landscape for industrialists, expecting them to pull up stakes every now and then and move operations is one of the most stupid things to ever come out of CCP. Of course, given that the null sec cartels can establish and strictly control who builds, what they build, and when they build at every single null sec station under their control, this whole industry overhaul works perfectly for them. Gee, it is almost like they handed you the whole industrial blueprint and said "Here, implement this."

You seriously think this all these changes actually make industry MORE enjoyable for players?
You guys are so far out in left field, you can't even see home plate.


Optimizing towards boredom is not a good design direction, no matter how much you want it.


No but understanding what your players actually want to do in game is good design direction.

I haven't seen any player say the new "cost changes" are easily understood and tracked. Nor have they said it's added some sort of enjoyable gameplay function or experience.

Dragging stuff between stations is boring too.

POS changes seem to be a very sore point.

The new interface looks smick but it's hard to give any real feedback until we actually get to use it.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#210 - 2014-04-30 14:37:04 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
You will also be able to command the services of any team you want, or simply withhold the services from someone else, because of your infinite supply of ISK.

if i have an infinite supply of isk why am i trying to make more, and why am i willing to spend 2x to get something that will make me 1x


Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Galen Achu
Bellerophon Expedition
#211 - 2014-04-30 14:37:42 UTC
Are the bids in the auction UI shown per player or per system? It seems more logical to display the total amount per system as the blog states: "When the auction ends, the solar system with the highest pooled bid wins."
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#212 - 2014-04-30 14:37:53 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Aziesta wrote:
Oh man. All these additional variable costs. My spreadsheets are going to need some serious love.


Hopefully the new UI will be good enough so you dont need to spreadsheet as much.


We'll need the spreadsheets to figure out how much we want to bid.
Kip Troger
Exiled Kings
Pain And Compliance
#213 - 2014-04-30 14:39:17 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
I'm afraid I lost the post but someone made a good point in that the winning bidder should be able to access the team at base cost. This seems fair, but with bids piling up I would suggest the highest bidder among the system take the cake - Although then you might have to make a system to determine who's bidding what in what system, which has its own potential problems. To solve this you could make the "base" labor/build cost available to anyone who contributed at least a certain % of the pot (i.e. 5%). This would prevent people from "0.01isking" in order to get access to the lower (lower) build cost, but without contributing anything.



Of course, it remains to be seen how, if at all, players will need to be incentivized regarding bidding on teams. Personally I plan on bidding on day 1, but I have no idea how my price point compares to others - and would rather not share that information.


This is one of things we'll be monitoring very close after this goes live, as it is one of the biggest uncertainties. We did look into options to reward the bidder (after the CSM raised this issue). Unfortunately, there is no clean, elegant way to do it that either doesn't complicate the system a bunch or allows for weird exploits. So any good suggestions on this are welcome Smile

Of course, if freeloading turns out to be stifling the system too much, we will have to bite the bullet on complicating the system to counter it, but we want to avoid it if possible.


I think this concern is realy only in high sec space. But the main problem I see with rewarding the bidder is that it will often probably be made by someone with alts, or a corporation CEO/Alliance CEO, that I can understand why there is no easy way to fleshout this issue.

Only solution that I can see is that after a bid is won, the bidders all recieve some sort of shares for the team they hired in proportion to the ammount they payed into the escrow pool during the bid - and they get some small % per share of the isk spent by everyone using that team in that system. Maybe 10% of the isk dumped into the team during that month gets returned to the team share holders.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#214 - 2014-04-30 14:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Loraine Gess
Bad Bobby wrote:

Loyalty points? They do belong to an NPC corp don't they?




Problem: If LP scales with bid, I could conceivably bid X billions of isk, and only have to effectively pay Y%*X billions of isk. Teams turn into a LP generation mechanic, not a manufacturer's dream.


If it doesn't scale... well you're not getting much of a reward.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#215 - 2014-04-30 14:40:13 UTC
FREE AT LAST
FREE AT LAST
LET THESE PUBBIES
PUMP SOME GAS

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#216 - 2014-04-30 14:41:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Bobby
Loraine Gess wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:

Loyalty points? They do belong to an NPC corp don't they?




Problem: If LP scales with bid, I could conceivably big X billions of isk, and only have to effectively pay Y%*X billions of isk. Teams turn into a LP generation mechanic, not a manufacturer's dream.


If it doesn't scale... well you're not getting much of a reward.

I was just hoping to get a free cup of coffee for every billion I end up throwing at these things.

I was also thinking more about you getting LP for people using them, not for you hiring them.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#217 - 2014-04-30 14:42:11 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

LOL...like you needed any of these changes to outcompete.

You have been gifted the perfect platform , where you will have the greatest cost certainty of any group in the game, because you can strictly control access to all industry facilities in any station under your control. You will also be able to command the services of any team you want, or simply withhold the services from someone else, because of your infinite supply of ISK.
The only variable costs you will encounter will be raw material costs and the team costs. All other slot costs you will very quickly be able to lock down.

High sec, naturally, won't have that option.
And low sec, well, industry is finished there. I can just see it now, some low sec indy group bidding for a team, broadcasting the system they are operating in, and what they are building or researching.




WTB enough isk to hire all 4000 teams in the game, forever.



Of course the goons could do it - for a month.


I could probably do it for a month too, if I cared enough to blow my fortune on annoying someone as neurotic as you.


Sadly I do not have any free character slots to add goon-sounding characters to, so I am unable to make you froth at the mouth (any more than you usually do).
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#218 - 2014-04-30 14:42:16 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sigh....

You guys at CCP really don't get it, do you.

What industrialists want, in real life or otherwise:

1. Cost certainty
2. Minimized risk for return (both in capital investment and getting shot at)
3. Minimizing non-productive time (you know, like what you are supposedly addressing with the UI changes)

In all 3 areas, you have managed to create the exact opposite.



Well duh.

Everyone wants certainty of 0 risk and easy profits in everything. It doesn't mean that's what you should get to make for an interesting game.





I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#219 - 2014-04-30 14:42:51 UTC
I keep reading this again and again and I am not sure if I inderstand those changes.
So the ME % bonus means I need less materials for manufacturing?
The TE bonus means I will manufacture faster?
Or does those bonuses apply only to the install fee from the previous blog? And how? I remember seeing a team bonus mupliplyer out there, but here in blog is ME and TE bonus...whats that?
Are there going to be teams giving bonuses to manufacturing, ME research, TE research, copying? I think it was mentioned out there. What ME and TE means for each of those? Does it mean we need less materials for research? That sound silly, as research already doesnt need almost any materials.
Team has got 4 members. So when I have 4 members with same narrow bonus to manufacturing of 1 ship type and every of them has lvl 5, does it mean I am going to build the ship 4*5=20% cheaper? Seems strange.

Can someone please make some examples how exactly is this going to work for manufacturing, ME/TE research, copying etc? Thanks guys
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#220 - 2014-04-30 14:43:00 UTC
Galen Achu wrote:
Are the bids in the auction UI shown per player or per system? It seems more logical to display the total amount per system as the blog states: "When the auction ends, the solar system with the highest pooled bid wins."


It lists the systems with the highest bid pools. When an auction ends, a notification is sent to those who made bids (both winners and losers), which includes a list of top contributing players to the system pool.