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Crime & Punishment

 
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Harrassement in Chat

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350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2014-04-30 19:35:43 UTC
Kristalll wrote:
350125GO wrote:

Ok. I see where you're coming from, but racism, antisemitism, etc. should be reported. Hate speech is protected in the US, but not tolerated (there is a difference). There are many democracies that believe in free speech but don't protect hate speech (Germany, France, Holland, to name a few).


It's impossible to have free speech and laws against hate speech.

Freedom of Speech isn't to protect the popular speech, it's there to protect the unpopular speech.

At some point, claiming that minorities should be treated fairly could easily have been illegal under hate speech laws. In the free marketplace of ideas, even those society doesn't agree with have equal right to be represented, regardless of how bad they make some people feel.

While I would never support the idea that any race, group, or gender, are better than any other for such an arbitrary reason, I would actively be opposed to any attempt to censor someone who does.

I also recognize that, as a private company, CCP has the full right to prosecute such actions as they see fit, but I would not support it, and I thoroughly feel that it would be against CCP's goal of making a real living world out of New Eden.

TL;DR Freedom of Speech and Laws against Hate Speech are completely contradictory and can't exist together in a logical society.


First, I agree with your ideas, but it doesn't apply. Free speech is not truly free. In the US there are many limits on free speech (more of them come each day), for example, you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater and then hide behind the 1st amendment. The countries I listed as examples have free speech but limits on hate speech. I know there are contradictions there, but that wasn't my point, rather just an example on the side.

Eve is a game. In a game, hate speech shouldn't be protected or tolerated. In your public life, say whatever you want, and I'll always defend your right to do so, it doesn't mean I won't punch you in the mouth for saying at the same time. Having a right to say something doesn't mean you should say something. Hmmm.... sounds a lot like just because you can fly a Golem doesn't mean you're ready to fly one, or should fly one. People think so much about how they play the game, and the repercussions of their actions, but put no thought whatsoever into what they say on coms or write in chats.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2014-04-30 19:44:08 UTC
350125GO wrote:

First, I agree with your ideas, but it doesn't apply. Free speech is not truly free. In the US there are many limits on free speech (more of them come each day), for example, you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater and then hide behind the 1st amendment. The countries I listed as examples have free speech but limits on hate speech. I know there are contradictions there, but that wasn't my point, rather just an example on the side.

Eve is a game. In a game, hate speech shouldn't be protected or tolerated. In your public life, say whatever you want, and I'll always defend your right to do so, it doesn't mean I won't punch you in the mouth for saying at the same time. Having a right to say something doesn't mean you should say something. Hmmm.... sounds a lot like just because you can fly a Golem doesn't mean you're ready to fly one, or should fly one. People think so much about how they play the game, and the repercussions of their actions, but put no thought whatsoever into what they say on coms or write in chats.


What I'm saying is those countries don't have freedom of speech, to include the US in some cases. But "Fire" in a crowded theater is often related to endangerment and inciting a riot and has very little to do with the speech itself.

At the end of the day, nobody can make you feel bad or feel offended. That choice lies with you.

And, to be clear, I'm very against, personally, the vast majority of **** talking that happens in game, and when it's an ally of mine trashtalking in local, I try to defuse it, because it doesn't benefit anyone's play, but calling for bans and moderation is just pathetic.

"He who turns to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. He who cannot protect himself without those laws is both."

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
Pubbie Spy
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#63 - 2014-04-30 19:44:26 UTC
350125GO wrote:
Kristalll wrote:
350125GO wrote:

Ok. I see where you're coming from, but racism, antisemitism, etc. should be reported. Hate speech is protected in the US, but not tolerated (there is a difference). There are many democracies that believe in free speech but don't protect hate speech (Germany, France, Holland, to name a few).


It's impossible to have free speech and laws against hate speech.

Freedom of Speech isn't to protect the popular speech, it's there to protect the unpopular speech.

At some point, claiming that minorities should be treated fairly could easily have been illegal under hate speech laws. In the free marketplace of ideas, even those society doesn't agree with have equal right to be represented, regardless of how bad they make some people feel.

While I would never support the idea that any race, group, or gender, are better than any other for such an arbitrary reason, I would actively be opposed to any attempt to censor someone who does.

I also recognize that, as a private company, CCP has the full right to prosecute such actions as they see fit, but I would not support it, and I thoroughly feel that it would be against CCP's goal of making a real living world out of New Eden.

TL;DR Freedom of Speech and Laws against Hate Speech are completely contradictory and can't exist together in a logical society.


First, I agree with your ideas, but it doesn't apply. Free speech is not truly free. In the US there are many limits on free speech (more of them come each day), for example, you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater and then hide behind the 1st amendment. The countries I listed as examples have free speech but limits on hate speech. I know there are contradictions there, but that wasn't my point, rather just an example on the side.

Eve is a game. In a game, hate speech shouldn't be protected or tolerated. In your public life, say whatever you want, and I'll always defend your right to do so, it doesn't mean I won't punch you in the mouth for saying at the same time. Having a right to say something doesn't mean you should say something. Hmmm.... sounds a lot like just because you can fly a Golem doesn't mean you're ready to fly one, or should fly one. People think so much about how they play the game, and the repercussions of their actions, but put no thought whatsoever into what they say on coms or write in chats.


So what I take away from your post is that autopiloting pubbies should be banned from flying officer fit Golems?
350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2014-04-30 20:04:38 UTC
Pubbie Spy wrote:
350125GO wrote:
Kristalll wrote:
350125GO wrote:

Ok. I see where you're coming from, but racism, antisemitism, etc. should be reported. Hate speech is protected in the US, but not tolerated (there is a difference). There are many democracies that believe in free speech but don't protect hate speech (Germany, France, Holland, to name a few).


It's impossible to have free speech and laws against hate speech.

Freedom of Speech isn't to protect the popular speech, it's there to protect the unpopular speech.

At some point, claiming that minorities should be treated fairly could easily have been illegal under hate speech laws. In the free marketplace of ideas, even those society doesn't agree with have equal right to be represented, regardless of how bad they make some people feel.

While I would never support the idea that any race, group, or gender, are better than any other for such an arbitrary reason, I would actively be opposed to any attempt to censor someone who does.

I also recognize that, as a private company, CCP has the full right to prosecute such actions as they see fit, but I would not support it, and I thoroughly feel that it would be against CCP's goal of making a real living world out of New Eden.

TL;DR Freedom of Speech and Laws against Hate Speech are completely contradictory and can't exist together in a logical society.


First, I agree with your ideas, but it doesn't apply. Free speech is not truly free. In the US there are many limits on free speech (more of them come each day), for example, you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater and then hide behind the 1st amendment. The countries I listed as examples have free speech but limits on hate speech. I know there are contradictions there, but that wasn't my point, rather just an example on the side.

Eve is a game. In a game, hate speech shouldn't be protected or tolerated. In your public life, say whatever you want, and I'll always defend your right to do so, it doesn't mean I won't punch you in the mouth for saying at the same time. Having a right to say something doesn't mean you should say something. Hmmm.... sounds a lot like just because you can fly a Golem doesn't mean you're ready to fly one, or should fly one. People think so much about how they play the game, and the repercussions of their actions, but put no thought whatsoever into what they say on coms or write in chats.


So what I take away from your post is that autopiloting pubbies should be banned from flying officer fit Golems?


No. They should be ganked.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.
Carnia Astrael
#65 - 2014-04-30 21:14:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Carnia Astrael
Well i feel better now, had two replies from SUPPORT and they are clearly going to take some action....they clearly do NOT feel like many of you that anything goes in EVE and that any sort of behaviour is ok. I am not a puritan, or a saint, i have good days and bad days but obscene and trolling and flaming in chat and on forum pots is NOT ok with me ever in any game or format.

I will continue to fight to keep games and our world as clean as it can be, i am not saying we all need to run our lives like Sunday School, fun is fun but to be insulted and attacked for asking for decency in an open chat is far from fun for any decent person. I am sorry that some of you felt rancor and anger at my concerns. That is your problem, and I hope in time you may understand why we elders, for i am over 60 years old....why we care about such standards and fight to keep them in place to make our live and our recreation fun and decent.

here is the latest reply from support which explains that they are and do indeed care that we behave properly in the game..i will also attach at the very end the rules about such conduct in the chat in case some of you which I suspect is the case have never read them.

Enjoy, I will be having fun in EVE and look forward to more adventures now that I know decency is indeed to be found among the stars. Have a nice day.

Quote of GM post removed but they ARE dealing with it.


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continued...

------------------------------------------
Carnia Astrael
#66 - 2014-04-30 21:15:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Carnia Astrael
Quote:
Trolling is prohibited.
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finally in closing i liked what i saw in one post i think it was by Kristall but it is hard to tell as it was re quoted several times...it summariezed my concerns, and states them clearly ..and it is clear at least this one person understands why I posted in the first place, tho i did not expect such a flame attack from so many on such a basic decency issue...Kristall said:

Quote:
First, I agree with your ideas, but it doesn't apply. Free speech is not truly free. In the US there are many limits on free speech (more of them come each day), for example, you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded theater and then hide behind the 1st amendment. The countries I listed as examples have free speech but limits on hate speech. I know there are contradictions there, but that wasn't my point, rather just an example on the side.

Eve is a game. In a game, hate speech shouldn't be protected or tolerated. In your public life, say whatever you want, and I'll always defend your right to do so, it doesn't mean I won't punch you in the mouth for saying at the same time. Having a right to say something doesn't mean you should say something. Hmmm.... sounds a lot like just because you can fly a Golem doesn't mean you're ready to fly one, or should fly one. People think so much about how they play the game, and the repercussions of their actions, but put no thought whatsoever into what they say on coms or write in chats.


Yes you have a right to express yourself in a RPG situation expressing your character and yes you have the right in our society for free speech but abuse, blatant attacks, using gross pornographic imagry and using it to attack a player for no reason at all other than an exploit is against both the EULA and all standards of decency. THAT was what happened to me, i did not post the actual chat which i DID copy and share with the Admins for THAT would have been a violation of the free speech of that player, but they will I hope and pray recieve just punmishment for their actions and hopefully learn that there ARE limits to what we tolerate in our society and in our games. thank you all. I am glad we had this chance for a open discussoin tho a lot of it was quite painful for me. Please temper your speech in such exchanges if you were one of those who felt motivated to attack me and my concerns here. I hope you can too learn moderation.

------------------------------------------
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
Meta Reloaded
#67 - 2014-04-30 21:18:07 UTC
Wow such noble


Very quest

Pls cleanse eve

U r saint









Also, linking communications between GMs and players on the public forum is strictly prohibited.


Reported for reporting.

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2014-04-30 21:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kristalll
Welp, Carnia, we can all agree you did just break the EULA by posting contact with a GM.

It's a notoriously bannable offense to quote your dealings with GMs and CCP employees, even if it's the cookie cutter response.


Also, why do you seem to think that everyone's freedom should be removed to make you feel comfortable? You're literally doing something worse than those people you're complaining about. While they may be assaulting your sensibilities, you're assaulting their freedom.

And don't even get me started on how forcing someone to speak "kindly" does nothing to change who they are. It just makes them dislike you more, and have even more hate towards you.

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
Meta Reloaded
#69 - 2014-04-30 21:24:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Inkuras
Carnia Astrael wrote:

[quote]
Thank you for reporting this to us. We will investigate and take action as appropriate according to the EULA and our Terms of Service. Please bear in mind that any action that may or may not be taken against any reported pilot may not be discussed with a third party. Any such actions will remain confidential between CCP and the player in question, as per our Privacy Policy which you can find here


Bolded the important stuffs

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Carnia Astrael
#70 - 2014-04-30 21:25:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Carnia Astrael
post removed and thanks for that.

it is not a matter of freedom when it involves a clear use of prohibited graphic pornographic imagery and content to attack a player in trolling. Sorry you clearly have an overly liberal view of freedom and that is not a problem limited to EVE but to our current culture as well.

Have a nice day.

------------------------------------------
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#71 - 2014-04-30 21:29:00 UTC
Carnia Astrael wrote:
post removed and thanks for that.

it is not a matter of freedom when it involves a clear use of prohibited graphic pornographic imagery and content to attack a player in trolling. Sorry you clearly have an overly liberal view of freedom and that is not a problem limited to EVE but to our current culture as well.

Have a nice day.


Freedom is freedom, there isn't a spectrum to it.

You have provided no proof of "graphics pornographic imagery" or "graphic content" or "trolling". All you've provided is your clear sense of superiority because of your own inability to manage yourself.

You're the only one that chooses if you're offended.

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2014-04-30 21:39:25 UTC
A bit off-topic but, OP, why did you create an avatar with GIGANTIC boobs?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#73 - 2014-04-30 21:41:25 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
A bit off-topic but, OP, why did you create an avatar with GIGANTIC boobs?


It is really odd. My character, I believe, has the largest breasts you can make and they look tiny compared to OPs. Maybe it's all in the style?

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2014-04-30 21:46:57 UTC
Kristalll wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
A bit off-topic but, OP, why did you create an avatar with GIGANTIC boobs?


It is really odd. My character, I believe, has the largest breasts you can make and they look tiny compared to OPs. Maybe it's all in the style?

Hmm... not sure, I think a couple of my alts have them bigger than yours. But the OP beats us all!

I wonder if he/she hacked the char creation system, maybe that's what the guys in local were raging about.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-04-30 22:17:49 UTC
Lol @ the irony of someone offended by pornograhic images that went out of their way to make a toon with epic rockin boobs.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Pubbie Spy
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#76 - 2014-04-30 22:32:20 UTC
Carnia Astrael wrote:
WORDS


Every time someone throws a fit because words were said in an internet spaceship game or because boobs were seen (think of the children! ban breastfeeding!) I have to laugh.
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#77 - 2014-04-30 22:36:25 UTC
Kristalll wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
A bit off-topic but, OP, why did you create an avatar with GIGANTIC boobs?


It is really odd. My character, I believe, has the largest breasts you can make and they look tiny compared to OPs. Maybe it's all in the style?

Angle and outfit.

Most of those outerwear jackets/coats seem to enhance bust quite considerably What?

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

▷ worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕ ▷ вσss
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2014-04-30 22:43:53 UTC
Erica Dusette wrote:

A bit off-topic, but that's a very nice avatar you've created, good sir/lady.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Carnia Astrael
#79 - 2014-04-30 22:55:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Carnia Astrael
Big smile

I have decided to make a final effort to communicate here and perhaps close the discussion from my point of view. I hope this may help some of you understand and even consider changing how you think and how you express yourselves here and maybe even elsewhere.

Firstly, I shared here out of hopes for reassurance and support. I had encountered a frankly scary and upsetting situation that I had not expected, as by all reports EVE was a safe environment and well run, with a lot of fine qualities. The GM i has communicated with had been very helpful and prompt and I was very pleased with my first 24 days of play, and looking forward to more.

The chat encounter was totally random, i had not hardly visited the local chat at all, but noticed a lot of chat going by and was curious as i was mining at the time and that gets tedious.

Then suddenly I was surprised to see not only ribald but frankly obscene material being discussed in the open chat. It was NOT a PM or a com channel but open public chat. I made a polite request for the chat to remain polite, merely and simply that. The main source of the lewd content then proceeded to attack me personally and in lurid detail making comments about me, my family and accusing me of obscene behaviour.

I blocked them, copied the chat and reported it and posted here. I thought it might help others to know that such was happening and that we could and should report it.

I had no idea I would receive so much abuse here and personal attacks on my sensibilities, standards and right for a safe game environment as promised clearly by the EULA. It has continued now for four pages and may continue on. It is not pleasant to be so targeted and shamed in a public forum for no apparent reason. I have not committed a crime, or taken any right away from anyone, i have asked for the standards promised by the game to be upheld. I took action on that basis and am reassured that the moderators understand and will do what they decide to do. They do not report on results or actions. And I did not reveal the content of the attack to support that privacy.

Many here seem to feel empowered to blame me for caring for decency. That appears to be happening in our society as well. I cannot and do not hope to deal with it on that scale. But I do feel it is our responsibilty as mature adults who have inherited our culture to protect standards of decency in public areas, what you do in private and in your own personal communications is totaly your right as many here have stated. What happens in a public space where no one controls what may happen is based on Trust and agreed upon standards. Such standards forbid certain subjects due to their extreme nature and the upsetting imagery and nature of their content. I think maybe the ease of access of the internet and modern media has made such standards seem impossible. but I will not surrender my concern and care for this. I will not abandon the game or my beliefs. You are free to do as you wish but when you attack me and aggressively criticize me for asking for safely in a game that has clearly stated standards of play then you yourself are violating the rules against Trolling and flaming and being needlessly hurtful.

It has not been easy to endure this. I guess i have kept with this rather than run away because i think it may help some others who feel the same way and who may have been brutalized or bullied in the same way and were afraid to speak out.

I urge and encourage all who encounter speech and chat that violates the EULA rules to report it immediately. I don't think it is useful to talk about it here on the forums from the results of my effort :) but do please know some of us are doing our best to keep the game clean and as nice as it can be. Have fun, I plan to, and please think carefully about what you say and do, for even in a virtual fictional world, it has consequences and impact and you can cause both joy, fun and pain. Try to choose wisely. Take care and I wish you all well.

I was and am in the end very impressed by the very high quality of moderation by the Admins and GMs in this game it is superb and I am sorry that they have to deal with this kind of issue but I thank the stars they are here and are doing their best to give us a safe (not from Ganking and pirates )..... game to enjoy.

Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smile

------------------------------------------
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#80 - 2014-04-30 22:59:00 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Erica Dusette wrote:

A bit off-topic, but that's a very nice avatar you've created, good sir/lady.

Thank you sir. Smile

I'm available for contract, private holo-shoots in classy attire. I thank my mother for the genes which give me these symmetrical features and legs for days.

Likewise you've done a good job also. Don't let your scars hamper your self-confidence sir, look in the mirror and smile - you're a beautiful person too.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

▷ worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕ ▷ вσss