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Core skills negatively impact the new player experience

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Author
Khadhir Hashul
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-04-29 15:09:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Khadhir Hashul
There's a lot of rhetoric in CSM proposals about the 'new player experience'. How exactly does outright gimping new players, not just in their amount of options but in their ability to fight back against older players, contribute to this?

The powergrid/cpu cores take ten days, half of a newbie's trial. The entire Core Ship Operation cert takes up to 60 days. The armor/shield compensation skills take ten days apiece. The whole armour tanking tree takes 90 days in all. These are not reasonable amounts of time to anyone that hasn't already invested a great deal of time and interest into the game.

A lot of people (the usual apologists) are obviously going to respond to this with 'you don't need to have all core skills to V', but where's the question of need? People are meant to play a game for fun, and barriers to entry like this do nothing but make new players, opening whatever guides they find for the first time, decide 'oh well, I'm not playing this game for that long anyway'.

The majority of new players are therefore consigned to being either warm bodies in nullblocs or running level 3 missions until they quit.

I have spoken to a great deal of people who have quit EVE not because it 'wasn't the game for them' (this is also a common apologist argument), but because they simply realised one day that it just wasn't fun waiting for skills to train. Telling people who haven't played EVE about the train times makes them insist that they'd never play a game so mind-numbing. This is part of the reason I'm somewhat ashamed to try and get my friends into EVE at all.

Proposed solutions:
- Remove all core skills and reimburse them with skillpoints. Benefits remain the same.
- Give all new players enough skillpoints to either buy all core skills or specialise in one type of tank and weapons system.
- Remove skills entirely and replace them with implants or something, because paying money to look at a bar go up might as well be the definition of a farce.

'Core skills' worth removal, by level of annoyance:
- Anything related to fitting
- All capacitor skills
- All skills under the Navigation certificate
- All compensation skills (or merge them into a single skill)

As a side-effect, this will greatly increase accessibility to T2s and would make the game much more dynamic for newbies looking to get into things like covops, balanced by the cost of the hulls themselves.
Nhod Whic
Nexus Industry Division
#2 - 2014-04-29 18:31:38 UTC
The throw-away gank alt fleets would blot out the sun(s).

I like it !
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#3 - 2014-04-29 20:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Under your logic OP... all skills should be gotten rid of. Turret/Missile support skills... ship skills... astrometric skills... industry skills... they all prevent a newbie from performing well.

The problem with your reasoning OP is that it doesn't stop until everyone can do everything equally with any ship, mod, or equipment in any activity from the very first second they start playing.


Stop looking at skills as something you NEED and something to work around. Find solutions to compensate for your lacking skills... be creative in the ways you fit and use your ships... because that is pretty much the point behind the skill system as is; you are supposed to learn how to use your head in order to play rather than rely on the "need more skills for max effectiveness!" mentality.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2014-04-29 20:42:24 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Under your logic OP... all skills should be gotten rid of. Turret/Missile support skills... ship skills... astrometric skills... industry skills... they all prevent a newbie from performing well.

The problem with your reasoning OP is that it doesn't stop until everyone can do everything equally with any ship, mod, or equipment in any activity from the very first second they start playing.


Stop looking and skills as something you NEED and something to work around. Find solutions to compensate for your lacking skills... be creative in the ways you fit and use your ships... because that is pretty much the point behind the skill system as is; you are supposed to learn how to use your head in order to play rather than rely on the "need more skills for max effectiveness!" mentality.

Exactly, I used to PvP just fine back in the day (mainly wormholes). Never really noticed myself killing or dying any faster than any other member of the fleet.

wasnt until after I retired from that corp that I realized (to my great embarassment as a dedicated Amarr-ship pilot) most of my fitting related skills, and skills involving capacitor, were at 3 or 4.

Skillpoints are less important than knwoing what you have and what your fighting, and what your options are because of it.

The training time prevents players from throwing on T2 or more expensive modules rigth of the bat and losing them, it forces you into weaker ships where you are REQUIRED to learn your own capabilities, so that once you ARE able to fit higher-grade equipment, you are MUCH less likely to lose it

in theory anyways, in practice its all noobs inviting noobs to their noob corp then telling them theya rent allowed to really play until every skill is V, because we let too many dumbasses interact with newbs and make them hate the game
Khadhir Hashul
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-04-30 01:46:28 UTC
@ShahFluffers
Yes, all skills should be gotten rid of. It's a stupid, outdated system only held up as a good thing by 'vets' whose only reason for supporting it is their own example of the gambler's fallacy, and the only people who would be willing to say something about it have quit the game a long time ago - probably because of people like you.

Since we can't do that, however, it would be much more helpful to new players to not make them spend more than what they need to get experience from the game. Almost all skills but those few core skills (I see a lot of people saying they take 'only' three months to train, but only idiots, people who played the game long ago and a few very determined people would be willing to sink $45 into a game just to have their 'core skills' train up, taking more than their trial period to get into ships that their nullblocs tell them to or else being consigned to mediocre support roles) would remain unchanged.

Literally the only thing keeping this game afloat at this point are alts.

@Nariya Kentaya
Cute anecdote.

Most new players would prefer to be able to learn what they're doing and get better on their own merit rather than have themselves artificially restricted in what is meant to be a 'sandbox'. It's just that simple.

I'm not even going to point out the contradiction of you supporting a system that you yourself admit doesn't work.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#6 - 2014-04-30 01:51:51 UTC
Here's what I say to people who clamor "get rid of the skill system, it's anti newbie!".

Go play a MOBA, if that's what you want.

The skill system in this game is actually one it's more appealing features to me. It means I can progress even though I have a 60 hour a week job. It means that I don't have to grind out every last level of pig skinning and basket weaving.

But even I recognize that there must be some progression, that I should not be able to jump into any and every ship I want, just because I want it.

It's still an RPG, after all.

It's also a fairly handy way of providing a barrier to entry for the undesirable portions of the gaming community. The CoD babies, the instant gratification crowd, the Farmville "gamers", and the WoW level 90 boosters. Those people must be kept away from EVE at all costs.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Khadhir Hashul
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-04-30 02:07:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Khadhir Hashul
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Go play a MOBA, if that's what you want.


A lot of people do.

Quote:
The skill system in this game is actually one it's more appealing features to me. It means I can progress even though I have a 60 hour a week job. It means that I don't have to grind out every last level of pig skinning and basket weaving.


I am not suggesting a grind. You might as well say that ISK is a grind, because you are attacking the most hilariously misplaced stramwan in the world. I dare you right now to go through any one of my posts and point out the point where I suggested turning the SP system into a normal XP grind system.

Go on. I'll wait.

Quote:
But even I recognize that there must be some progression, that I should not be able to jump into any and every ship I want, just because I want it.

It's still an RPG, after all.


If you want to be 'conventional', I suggest playing World of Warcraft. Most people are much more willing to spend their time than their money on something, and that reflects itself in the player market.

You're also missing the point: I suggested removing core skills in order to allow new players to get into ships and quicker, not to remove train time entirely.

Quote:
It's also a fairly handy way of providing a barrier to entry for the undesirable portions of the gaming community. The CoD babies, the instant gratification crowd, the Farmville "gamers", and the WoW level 90 boosters. Those people must be kept away from EVE at all costs.


You are literally, unironically supporting a Farmville game model on a game where it makes no sense. You are supporting what is essentially a mini-Farmville on the game. You are a Farmville gamer revelling in his elitism. You are the exact kind of person who plays Farmville: someone who can't afford to spend that much time on the game. You are the kind of person who would love Farmville if you could grind mini-games to make your rutabegas grow faster.

(I don't actually know how Farmville works, so this might be true.)

Elitism is not going to help your case here, because we are all playing what is basically and essentially a sandbox RTS (the only one that exists) with Farmville tacked awkwardly on top. Removing Farmville from this game would be nice, but I know that people like you and me have grown so many rutabagas that it's hard for us to throw the whole thing out.

My thesis remains the same:

New players do not want to wait months and pay money in the meanwhile to play Space Farmville to progress. If they're like you, and want to play Space Farmville, they can go back to Facebook to do it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#8 - 2014-04-30 02:14:31 UTC
Khadhir Hashul wrote:

My thesis remains the same:

New players do not want to wait months and pay money in the meanwhile to play Space Farmville to progress. If they're like you, and want to play Space Farmville, they can go back to Facebook to do it.


And my response remains the same.

If they want instant gratification, they aren't welcome in EVE in the first place.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Khadhir Hashul
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2014-04-30 02:18:09 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Khadhir Hashul wrote:

My thesis remains the same:

New players do not want to wait months and pay money in the meanwhile to play Space Farmville to progress. If they're like you, and want to play Space Farmville, they can go back to Facebook to do it.


And my response remains the same.

If they want instant gratification, they aren't welcome in EVE in the first place.


You can't read and you like playing Farmville with a skin, so I guess it wasn't worth arguing with you in the first place.

I really need to stop talking with Farmville fans. It's going to hurt my brain one of these days.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2014-04-30 11:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
That is a bit much is it not?

The Learning skill removal to me was awesome when I started and was happy about it's removal. If they had to remove another skill it should only be the most basic of core skills.

Even with basic core skills out of the way the new bro's will still struggle fitting ships without Weapons Upgrade and Advanced Weapons upgrade. The newbro will still have to train the relevant skills to fly a ship and fit it properly. I am almost convinced this request is for self serving reasons other then being altruistic and thinking of the newbie.

You need to consider the bad with the good. I think a change like this would be more bad then good.

Throw away awoxers and suicide alts would be rampant and do more damage if CCP is unable to effectively ban people recycling alts. Which is already an issue with people creating throw away alts.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Khadhir Hashul
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-04-30 11:46:37 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
That is a bit much is it not?

The Learning skill removal to me was awesome when I started and was happy about it's removal. If they had to remove another skill it should only be the most basic of core skills.

Even with basic core skills out of the way the new bro's will still struggle fitting ships without Weapons Upgrade and Advanced Weapons upgrade. The newbro will still have to train the relevant skills to fly a ship and fit it properly. I am almost convinced this request is for self serving reasons other then being altruistic and thinking of the newbie.

You need to consider the bad with the good. I think a change like this would be more bad then good.

Throw away awoxers and suicide alts would be rampant and do more damage if CCP is unable to effectively ban people recycling alts. Which is already an issue with people creating throw away alts.


It would then probably make more sense to just start new players with ~500,000-1,000,000 SP allocated to fitting and capacitor skills. at least. The current 90k start is far too limiting.

I still think the compensation skills are an overbearing SP sink, though.
Cerise Chan
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-05-01 07:41:05 UTC
Even the lower ships like t1 frigs and t1 destroyers can hardly be fit properly without having high engineering skills.

The waiting time for training until you can fly something that can actually be a threat to <2009 accounts is huge
Nhod Whic
Nexus Industry Division
#13 - 2014-05-01 11:22:04 UTC
The waiting time until you can fly anything that would be a threat solo is huge.

Six individual one week old newbies in thrashers make a mess out of most mission running BS, all with minimal training.

If they would train Social Interaction to at least III right off the bat, they would be much better off.


Cerise Chan wrote:
Even the lower ships like t1 frigs and t1 destroyers can hardly be fit properly without having high engineering skills.

The waiting time for training until you can fly something that can actually be a threat to <2009 accounts is huge
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-05-01 20:06:13 UTC
Nhod Whic wrote:
The waiting time until you can fly anything that would be a threat solo is huge.

Six individual one week old newbies in thrashers make a mess out of most mission running BS, all with minimal training.

If they would train Social Interaction to at least III right off the bat, they would be much better off.


Cerise Chan wrote:
Even the lower ships like t1 frigs and t1 destroyers can hardly be fit properly without having high engineering skills.

The waiting time for training until you can fly something that can actually be a threat to <2009 accounts is huge

If brand new characters werent a threat to anything, we woudlnt have suicide gankers all over highsec killing anythign with mroe module value than hull value
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#15 - 2014-05-01 20:17:28 UTC
Khadhir Hashul wrote:
@ShahFluffers
Yes, all skills should be gotten rid of. It's a stupid, outdated system only held up as a good thing by 'vets' whose only reason for supporting it is their own example of the gambler's fallacy

this thread is going nowhere.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2014-05-01 22:12:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Khadhir Hashul wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
That is a bit much is it not?

The Learning skill removal to me was awesome when I started and was happy about it's removal. If they had to remove another skill it should only be the most basic of core skills.

Even with basic core skills out of the way the new bro's will still struggle fitting ships without Weapons Upgrade and Advanced Weapons upgrade. The newbro will still have to train the relevant skills to fly a ship and fit it properly. I am almost convinced this request is for self serving reasons other then being altruistic and thinking of the newbie.

You need to consider the bad with the good. I think a change like this would be more bad then good.

Throw away awoxers and suicide alts would be rampant and do more damage if CCP is unable to effectively ban people recycling alts. Which is already an issue with people creating throw away alts.


It would then probably make more sense to just start new players with ~500,000-1,000,000 SP allocated to fitting and capacitor skills. at least. The current 90k start is far too limiting.

I still think the compensation skills are an overbearing SP sink, though.


I really think you are assigning way to much importance on SP. Ability to use what you have is more important.

A new person knowing how to handle himself with the limited sp he has, will kill a person with a lot more SP. People need to stop this crap about I need to wait for a skill before I can do something.

Which is why I think the request has more to do with personal entitlement and goals then it does "helping the New guy".

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Dont Tasemebro
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2014-05-02 21:06:05 UTC
bullshit. You can have the core skills trained to 4 in less than a month. Stop treating Eve like some other ****** MMO that focuses on racing to max level. Stop putting so much weight on the value of SP.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2014-05-07 18:08:04 UTC
Already said it once in this thread, will say it again, If SP was a problem than trial-account infinite Gank Alts woudlnt be a thing.

but they are very much a thing, so obviously a new character has no trouble posing a threat.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-05-08 09:39:24 UTC
Skill training time is all about level 5s. Training level 5 takes almost 6x the time it takes to train levels 1 to 4.

But with some exceptions, level 5's bonus to whatever the skill does is nice, but not game-changing.

As an example, few people train Advanced Weapon Upgrades straight to level 5. They'll go to 3 or 4 and switch to another skill, leaving 5 for later. There aren't that many fits that work with AWU 5 but not with AWU 4.

Unless they want to fly Marauders or Dreads.

So it's really all about level 5 prerequisites, that are clearly intended time sinks before players (new and old alike) gain access to new gear.

CCP already waived level 5 prereqs on some skills, for example racial battleship 5 for carriers or PG management 5 for thermodynamics (overheating). They might decide to lower some other level 5 prereqs in the future (T2 ships and modules come to mind).


TL;DR: the training time of core skills isn't really 'gimping' anyone. Training to level 4 is fast and almost always enough to be 'competitive': player skill is much more important (and yes, it does take months and even years to train that).

Rather, it's level 5 prereqs that actually set the 'pace' at which players (new and old) gain access to new toys. It's CCP's call to balance short-term satisfaction vs. long-term commitment, it's a tricky job but their track record shows that they're not afraid to make changes.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Jawls Rohn
Neon Incorporated
404 Alliance Not Found
#20 - 2014-05-09 00:04:24 UTC
I'd be in favour of a little tinkering. Stick AWU behind WU4 instead of 5, for instance.

Not entirely related, but the destroyer/BC skill split was pretty bad from a new player perspective, I think. If it had to be done, it should have been accompanied by making the racial BC skills lower ranked.

However, I'm broadly happy with the skill system as is. What's most important is that new players are educated by other, more experienced players about how you don't have to have many 5s to be useful.

I wouldn't object if CCP gave new players an additional leg up though.
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