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Just throwing my 0.02 ISK in here on the POS issue.

I think the simplest implementation of this would be to implement a discount of 10% ( a 0.9 multiplier) to the labor cost of installing a job at an array, then add a (1.01^JobsInArray) penalty effectively charging 1% more per job currently running in the array.

This is of course assuming you can tell how many jobs a given array is running but this should be pretty simple to do even without a table join.

This means their break even is 9-10 jobs in each array. Immediately I know that the optimal strategy would be to run each job in a separate array but then there are PG/CPU constraints, and managing that gets complicated.

This preserves the incremental cost increase as a corp gets large it can expand out to more arrays.

If you want to get really fancy you can add "intensive" variants to each array which start with a 15% discount, but cost significantly more PG/CPU meaning the corp can trade versatility for efficiency.

This doesnt apply to modules/ammo, but T2 ship invention really gets the shaft with this implementation.

I understand that there needs to be economies of scale, in fact Ive criticized Eve for not having that already, but this implementation seems to have unintended consequences because T2 BPO users can simply put their BPO in for a 30 day manufacturing run which is something that inventors cannot do.

My potential fix for this would be to allow anyone using a BPC to put in a stack of BPCs of the same ME/TE and run them all as one big job thus gaining the economies of scale that T2 BPO owners get, and having the added advantage of reducing the clickfest of manufacturing off of invention.

If you want to get really fancy you could even have the computer calculate the mineral cost from blueprints of different ME/TE levels as that actually shouldnt be that computationally expensive.

Is it possible to force a delay into the start of a job? What I'm talking about is: is it possible to set up a job (any job) so that it only starts a set time after being submitted?

With the current slot system one of the things I like is that when I'm inventing (with several toons) I can stack sets of jobs so that I can load jobs and go do something else for several hours. With the upcoming system it looks like I might end up loading a bunch of jobs and have to come back every 75 minutes as well as having to pay a small fortune in lab load charges. I currently sometimes run a couple of hundred jobs per day so to me this would really add up.

The player(s) being able to force start job delays should make for more efficiently run POSses by spreading loads (copy, invention, manufacture) out over time, especially time when the player(s) are asleep/at work/at school/getting mindbogglingly drunk/shooting each other.

I've been dealing with manufacture/science for a fairly long time so I believe I can speak from a position of mastery. Be very careful because the margins on most jobs are very close. T3 production is a perfect example of how the margins being so tight that only a few players have managed to produce T3 at a profit. Dev's have made the resources tight enough that you just cant turn a profit. The DEV's are implying here that these changes will somehow make the overall manufacture/science system better. I don't think I see the need for these changes and truthfully these changes will make a complicated system more complex.

Dev's take a look at this from a players perspective. Produce a T2 ship and see if you can sell it for a profit. Try to build it from the lowest level material and do the check to see if its more profitable to build a needed subsystem for the ship or buy it. Most manufacture/science players in EvE have huge elaborate spreadsheets with conditionals all over the sheet. When you factor in all the costs the markets are quite challenging. If you try this you'll quickly see a huge list of improvements that need to be applied to manufacture/science.

Sienna

You may be a master of the management of manufacturing and science, but I'm not sure you grasp the theory behind it.


If something is profitable, then more people will begin doing it. This increases demand for resources needed to do it (input costs) and increases supply of output which brings down the price of the completed item. The manufacturer is squeezed between the rising cost of input and falling price of output, until the profit is so low that people stop getting into the field, establishing equilibrium.

If costs go up, but price of completed goods does not, then people will stop doing it because they are losing money. Demand for input materials goes down, supply of output goes down pushing up price of output goods. Eventually, a thin profit margin will be reestablished, and equilibrium will be reestablished at the new cost levels with the same thin profit margins for the middle-man manufacturer.

I started with your idea, then extended it to stations, to create that reason to use a POS.

If a station's fees under current design are 2% * 7% = 0.14% of value of item BPO produces, even a capital BPO that produces a ship worth 1 billion is only 1.4 million ISK to research in station, but how often are you going to be researching one of those? And do you really want that in your POS anyway?

But, if we could set station max optimal concurrent to like 20, and then when there are 100 jobs in a station, the fee jumps 500% to 7 million.

Make it a 5-run copy, and that jumps to 35 million.

.... yeah, you're right. I can't seem to slice it to a point that the POS is legit. Not for reasearch. The value * 2% * x% , where x is between 1 and 15%, is just WAY, WAY too low, even if increasing it 5 or 10 fold, to make it worth putting the BPO into the POS.

The current design either needs some serious rework, or the concept of the research POS is dead.

If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.

It seems that CCP want to make T2 bpc more readily available thus are implementing changes. I understand that the T2 bpo are held by only a few older players in comparison to total players within Eve. Now this brings the question how many T2 bpo are actually left in circulation and what variety?

The people to gain from these changes will be the owners of the originals So are we changing a system so dramatically for the few?. I see at no point will I have enough invented T2 bpc to want to sell any on the markets.

The invention process requires items that are not easily aquired other than paying large prices for the data cores decryptors. If we do turn to market to buy the items demand will soon push the prices up thus making a T2 copy will be stupid amounts of isk. We also need to cover the failures and loss of this isk.

If you want more T2 bpc on market then make the invention mats as common as ore.

I generally resent it when I set out to make achievements required to better my position within the game itself as in grinding standings to place a pos and lower tax etc to have it belittled and the benefits removed.

As for suggestions as to a pos I still think standings in high sec should apply make unlimited slots in stations but give the pos a dedicated role or 2 maybe we can invent our reasearched bpo into a T2 bpo at pos only, making it possible but not easy to get success. If standings is an issue then change the standings for a corp so they don't need as high to place pos more members less standing required to a point.

By removing pos from the game as well as the sideline economy being ice mining and pi fuel sales building of pos modules to sell and placeing no incentives back in place so the very few will produce more T2 to sell is not a wise move in my books.

The above may well work and prices will drop from oversupply thus no reasons for invention anymore another area people will loose income from data cores decryptors due to an ease on demand.

If the changes have desired effect then a new player will be all but equal to my several years of indy skills.Granted I can research more R&D agents maybe fly a bigger ship mine a little more but my bpo library is worth less and time spent on it , as well as lost isk on fuel to research them is a nice kick in the teeth.

Like all I will either find a way to adapt but pvp for this account is not a reality and may be one less account to worry paying for.

As a trade off since bpo are npc controlled prices make these cost more making attaining a library more expensive that way those of us who have will not be loosing so much with the changes. If you need to take from those who invest in industry at least give us some area we can have an awww factor.

The above is from my perspective of the game the areas I have concentrated my efforts and directed my isk as a solo indy toon running a pos. It took a long time and many months of effort to be in a position to do this. I did not invest isk into a plex for account as there was not enough after buying bpo and fuel. But free up my expenses and plexing account becomes easy. less income for ccp.

Actually, greyscale seemed honestly concerned with not increasing the output from T2 BPOs. Not sure how he's going to mange, with all the changes... but, we'll see.

As for invention, prices of output adjusts to price. If datacores became cheaper, then invention would be more profitable, more people would do it, prices would drop to take out the extra profit. The inventors are left with the same slim profits and the people actually hurt are the T2 BPO holders that would see their profits decline (since they make the fat profits on the difference between BPO price and invented BPC price.

Multi-run discount:

Simplified math is:

Per run cost = (base run cost)*EXP(-0.01*(Hours production after first))

So at 25 runs a TE 10 per run cost is 10% greater than a TE 0?

Suggesting changing the simple math to:

Per run cost = (base run cost)*EXP(-0.01*(Runs -1))

Or I would suggest not researching TE.
TE 10 will ruin your profit margin.

Link please for the math change.

The cap does not change the fact that a higher TE production will cost more per run with the current time based discount system.
The install costs at a POS with 0.75 time bonus will be more expensive on a per run basis.

Installing nine TE 0 runs costs the same as ten TE 10 runs for each run. Hypothetically they both take 9 hours to complete and I don't care because they both complete while I am at work and wont be delivered for another 7-8 hours.

But with the TE 10 I have to make 10 widgets or else I lose money compared to the TE 0 when I go to market.