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Dev blog: The Price of Change

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TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#221 - 2014-04-29 15:39:31 UTC
Annah Gerber wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Annah Gerber wrote:

The problems with the PoS'es is that you aren't just looking to add tax to it, we are already running our own "mini spacestation" which has costs tied in to it to begin with, it's already 1b+ a month to fuel a large PoS,

i was just skimming through your post thinking "boy that's a lot of crazy" when this popped out at me

a large pos fuel cost is nowhere near 1b a month you clearly have no idea what you're talking about



To run a large Caldari PoS is 240 mil a week to run it, buying the fuel from Jita.

This is why I always dread using numbers while posting because people are just going to get hung up on that and ignore the rest of the post, so maybe it's not 1b a month, it's 960 mil a month.


Oh dear lol, you have been getting shafted so hard it's painful just to talk about it ShockedLolLol

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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#222 - 2014-04-29 15:40:36 UTC
So, let me see if I understand.

1) The 10% for NPC stations means all manufacturing at station is dead. Nothing with any reasonable volume is going to sell with enough of a markup to be profitable at that price. How do I know this? Because I would start making manufacturing the item at a POS and scoop the profit.

This means the presence of stations will cut my POS manufacturing price for their existence, but will not increase the cost of my manufacturing, since they won't actually be used.

2) If CCP is unable to get the "some factor for multiple POS facilities" thing figured out, or it is less than a flat division, then what I really want is a system with a lot of stations, but few moons (or the ability to war dec anyone that puts up a POS in my system). This way I'll get the reduced cost from the existence of the unused stations, but will still have very low % of total industry, because lack of moons will cap the systems POS count.

They will need to protect against me online-ing a bunch of labs to get the the division for number of faciliteis, then offlining them again to bring up all my manufacturing facilities, to kick off those jobs, etc. This is probably why they are worried about lag. How to keep count of the "facility minutes" instead of just current facility count at time of job execution.


3) High Sec indy corps will have to take vacation on patch day to be online the instant the patch goes live to be part of the land rush for new moons opening up. Oklahoma Sooners come to mind. Everyone in corp trains anchoring and receives POS config rights for the day. pre-positions in a hauler at a different moon in system, then spams the launch.... auto warp to moon, deploy for corp and anchor! Even if you get more than one moon... excellent. Sell them to the people that actually had to be at work that day.

4) Standings are dead. No more need of them to place a POS, and refining will be done at POS. Since the corp is going to need a POS for refinery and compression array, may as well toss up a lab and manufacturing facilities.

5) All CEOs will have to create a division that only they have access to, and all corp BPOs will be stored there. He'll have to have a bunch of alts that he logs into just to crank on BPCs of corp BPOs. Alt hell. The BPCs can then be made available to the corp as a whole to build from.

6) If you have cash, buy BPOs that can be researched to 10 within a month, and get them into research. During the patch, it will be converted to perfect. After the patch, it is going to take 4-5 times as long to research a BPO to perfect.

If you can only get it to ME 9, don't bother as it is that last 1% that will take more than 80% of total time post patch.

UNLESS... I can put it into research to 10, have the end time set... then the patch alters what I am researching to (perfect) without altering the end time! EXPLOIT alert!!!


7) CCP still hasn't announced plans for changes to outposts. Probably didn't think it through, and are now scrambling to come up with something, anything. Can't leave the 60% copy speed bonus, or it will drastically alter the T2 BPO production rates. What is the point of having extra factory, if it is just a multiplier to the job execution fees, which are going to be tiny anyway,


8) I hope CCP is prepared to up the PI and size of high sec ice belts to adjust for increased POS fuel usage. Otherwise, the big boom will be in jump freighter-ing in null POS fuel.
Abla Tive
#223 - 2014-04-29 15:40:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Abla Tive
Given that the price of a blueprint run is 2% of production object has anyone worked out the implications for invention?

I.e. Will this significantly change the costs of invention?

I often deal with max run copies as a part time inventor.
Annah Gerber
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#224 - 2014-04-29 15:41:50 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Annah Gerber wrote:

To run a large Caldari PoS is 240 mil a week to run it, buying the fuel from Jita.

This is why I always dread using numbers while posting because people are just going to get hung up on that and ignore the rest of the post, so maybe it's not 1b a month, it's 960 mil a month.

caldari large pos burns 40 fuel blocks an hour, caldari fuel blocks cost 18,000 each, for an hourly cost of 720,000

there are 24*7 hours in a week, so the weekly cost is 0.72m*24*7=120m

charters (3.8k, one per hour) are a rounding error amounting to under 3m a month

whoever your fuel supplier is has been hilariously gouging you and i wish to congratulate him




Yea, you are correct, I ran the wrong numbers in my head, I was considering my medium PoS aswell, but it doesn't change the fact the fact that you spend half a bil a month on your PoS and get no benefit. Right now I pay costs to build fuel blocks, then I pay costs to build a t2 component, then I build my t2 module and have my product. The changes will now add an install cost for the fuel blocks, and install cost for the t2 component, then an install cost for the t2 module - that's 3 costs added that I currently do not have to pay
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2014-04-29 15:43:48 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Counting facilities at a starbase is somewhat computationally expensive right now, as we don't keep track of which structures are associated with each control tower in the DB. The "obvious solution" (ie what you've described, and what's in the original design) requires us to do some legwork to track that properly, which as I alluded to earlier is not particularly conceptually complex but requires a reasonable amount of work that we may or may not have time to do.



Perhaps add a new DB table that stores the station bonus keyed on the id of the tower. When you gather then objects to render the tower generate a hash from the ids, compare that to the bonus table. If the bonus doesn't exist store it, if it is the same hash carry on, if the hash has changed recalculate the bonus based on the objects to render and update the table, then the new cost calculation code can just check the new table which is automatically maintained and is rarely updated (assuming POS are rarely changed once set up.

Offf the top of my head so potentially crap but what the hell, I'm bored in work
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#226 - 2014-04-29 15:44:51 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Counting facilities at a starbase is somewhat computationally expensive right now, as we don't keep track of which structures are associated with each control tower in the DB. The "obvious solution" (ie what you've described, and what's in the original design) requires us to do some legwork to track that properly, which as I alluded to earlier is not particularly conceptually complex but requires a reasonable amount of work that we may or may not have time to do.



Perhaps add a new DB table that stores the station bonus keyed on the id of the tower. When you gather then objects to render the tower generate a hash from the ids, compare that to the bonus table. If the bonus doesn't exist store it, if it is the same hash carry on, if the hash has changed recalculate the bonus based on the objects to render and update the table, then the new cost calculation code can just check the new table which is automatically maintained and is rarely updated (assuming POS are rarely changed once set up.

Offf the top of my head so potentially crap but what the hell, I'm bored in work


solutions that start with "add a new DB table" are not the sort of simple solutions that let something get done before patch day (i assume it will be announced at fanfest but usually late may/early june)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#227 - 2014-04-29 15:45:50 UTC
General comments:
Conceptually, I like the addition of simulated labor cost to a game that I think of as an economy simulation using PvP combat as a demand driver. It's interesting to read one dev blog describing a simplification of the ME mechanic followed by another introducing a rather complex mechanic.

Specific to the pricing scheme, your data on reverse engineering points out one flaw: uncommon activities are already lumpy enough in distribution to result in high costs overall. On the simulation side, sure, that activity doesn't have many available workers so they are free to charge a lot, but on the gameplay side it's rather worrying. Did you consider using more of a sigmoid function (where the multiplier approaches 0 asymptotically on the low and and some 'cap' asymptotically on the high end)? That would prevent things going wacky on either end and make the increases gradual at the extremes.

The multiple run discount not stacking across prints run consecutively is annoying (or worse) in the case of t2 production.

Really like to see a list of the station modifiers, or at least a better idea of what they're based on - is it going to be racial, by station type (refinery, factory, plantation...) or what?

Finally, I also want to add my voice to the chorus asking for full numbers around activities in POSes. This is pretty critical for us to understand what the total impacts are going to be.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2014-04-29 15:47:53 UTC
it's a 3 column table, tower id, hashkey and bonus and the calculation would be kept out of the pos code. As I say I'm boresd in work, but a new table isn't that hard. The code to use it would be where the problem lies in a legacy messed up system
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#229 - 2014-04-29 15:48:32 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Some general points:

- On "we don't know yet", this is a natural consequence of getting blogs out earlier rather than later. We can wait until we know everything, but then there's no time to make changes. Right now we're releasing blogs for things that are "mostly" done designing, in that the core stuff is solid and in implementation but a lot of the consequences are still being tidied up.

- More specifically, starbases. I'm being vague in no small part because this is something we're having continuing conversations about but we haven't really nailed down our approach yet, or figured out what will end up being possible in the time available.

We are totally open to suggestions for what to do with starbases as they relate to industry. In particular, if anyone who does starbase work can spend a few minutes outlining the *simplest* changes they think would be sufficient to keep starbases in a reasonable place for this release, we're very interested in hearing them. Yes, we know "throw it out and start over" would be great, but we're not getting that done between now and the summer release, no matter how much we'd like to.


Here is a thought:

Delay the entire release.

In the first 10 pages of comments I must have read 20 answers by dev's that said either "we don't know yet", or "we hadn't thought about it", or "we planned on adding that later", or "we don't have time".

You seriously think that dropping this mess on Sisi for 4 weeks, with constant tweaking that wipes out POS's and job's every time a new build shows up, is actually going to work?

So far you have stated:

You have stated that the null sec gifts are not complete, (and they are already lobbying hard for even more advantages.)
You have no clue what you are doing with POS's.
You have not even considered standings.
You are "hoping" that the sell prices of items won't be gamed, and feel "pretty confident it can't". (That gives no one a warm fuzzy).

So, get what you have on Sisi.
Beg and plead for feedback. You KNOW the serious manufacturers and the cartels will test the new mechanisms to death, and give you feedback. And take your bloody time. I remember being more on Sisi than on TQ for at least 5 weeks, probably longer for Apochrypha.

Don't release this crap with so many holes and unanswered questions.
Because we all know what happens. You guys head out for vacation in late June/July and we are stuck with some half-baked release to at least the fall. So if you have to take the whole summer with this on Sisi, so be it.

Do it right, because you risk pissing off even more people with this release than just the high sec casuals you have already cast adrift.
Fujiko MaXjolt
ACME HARDWARE
Exxitium
#230 - 2014-04-29 15:51:03 UTC
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Lemme clear this up:

WORKFORCE COSTS, ie job installation costs, are paid at starbases. This is not a "tax", it's the cost of labor, which goes up in busy systems as you'd expect.

TAXES, the additional 1.1x multiplier to your workforce costs, are not paid at starbases.


Tomato
Tomatoe

It is all a ******* tax, we ain't getting this **** back and it goes to the "Man"


Not quite, as the workforce costs are calculated based on the activity-level of a system, meaning they can be actively circumvented by going somewhere else. The taxes cannot, they remain the same everywhere...
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#231 - 2014-04-29 15:52:10 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
So, let me see if I understand.

1) The 10% for NPC stations means all manufacturing at station is dead. Nothing with any reasonable volume is going to sell with enough of a markup to be profitable at that price. How do I know this? Because I would start making manufacturing the item at a POS and scoop the profit.


Because a POS doesn't cost money to run, right? Right? RIGHT?! LolLol

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IIIMAPOBOgKA
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#232 - 2014-04-29 15:53:06 UTC
Welcome Inflation ! where we make everything cost more !



Quote:
Lemme clear this up:

WORKFORCE COSTS, ie job installation costs, are paid at starbases. This is not a "tax", it's the cost of labor, which goes up in busy systems as you'd expect.

TAXES, the additional 1.1x multiplier to your workforce costs, are not paid at starbases.


waiiiit you mean theres still humans operating the machinery ? I though that most of the work would be automated. And if I am amarr, can i put slaves in the line ? they dont cost anything !
Qorinn Eselle
Phronesis.
#233 - 2014-04-29 15:54:51 UTC
Would it be possible for Dr EyjoG or one of his minions to follow up with a brief dev blog, explaining the economic logic behind this new system and their thoughts on these changes? Not asking for details, models or predictions, of course.

Some reassuring words from the head of the central bank in this time of uncertainty would be nice. Their silence on all of this has been deafening (and a tad alarming).
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#234 - 2014-04-29 15:55:22 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Some general points:

- On "we don't know yet", this is a natural consequence of getting blogs out earlier rather than later. We can wait until we know everything, but then there's no time to make changes. Right now we're releasing blogs for things that are "mostly" done designing, in that the core stuff is solid and in implementation but a lot of the consequences are still being tidied up.

- More specifically, starbases. I'm being vague in no small part because this is something we're having continuing conversations about but we haven't really nailed down our approach yet, or figured out what will end up being possible in the time available.

We are totally open to suggestions for what to do with starbases as they relate to industry. In particular, if anyone who does starbase work can spend a few minutes outlining the *simplest* changes they think would be sufficient to keep starbases in a reasonable place for this release, we're very interested in hearing them. Yes, we know "throw it out and start over" would be great, but we're not getting that done between now and the summer release, no matter how much we'd like to.


Here is a thought:

Delay the entire release.


I can only support this. In fact I'm a big supporter of 'it's done when it's done' in general. CCP has been way too tied down by these mandatory releases every 6 months. I don't understand why you would want to enforce such a stupid timeframe on yourself in the first place.

There are a lot of good things coming, but the more we hear the more we see that there's also a lot of stuff that's going to be missing or left broken because 'there wasn't enough time'.

For for the love of god, just take the time to do it right then.

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Iorga Eeta
Hekatonkheires Industries
#235 - 2014-04-29 15:57:21 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
DEATHB1RD wrote:
Qorinn Eselle wrote:
However it's calculated -- manufacturing cost as a direct function of price seems like it's going to create problems with supply/demand equilibrium and the efficiency of markets.



Price goes up -> manufacturing cost goes up -> price goes up -> manufacturing cost goes up ->infinite spiral

Sounds like we'll be moving from billions to trillions before long. Did CCP hire a bunch of bankers for econ?


Since the job cost only represent 10% of the entire cost at most, I highly doubt this is going to happen. The base price of a product is directly tied to the resources used in its construction. The relatively small cost associated with starting a job will hardly have an impact on this.



I have to pull out some math books, but I believe an infinite series like this will reach a limit not too far about the initial 10% mark of the base price of x: x + x*.1 + x*(.1)^2+x*(.1 )^3...x*(.1)^n

or better yet:

infinity
∑ X(1/10)^n = 10X/9
n=0

http://symbolab.com/solver/series-calculator
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#236 - 2014-04-29 15:57:24 UTC
IIIMAPOBOgKA wrote:

waiiiit you mean theres still humans operating the machinery ? I though that most of the work would be automated. And if I am amarr, can i put slaves in the line ? they dont cost anything !


This would be skilled labour, not half starved probably demented slaves...and think of a production line now, it still need techies to maintain the production line. The only time humans would be cut out is when rogue drones bring about judgement day and Arnie tells you He'll Be Back for his run of phased plasma rifles in the 40W range...
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#237 - 2014-04-29 15:57:50 UTC
NPC corp taxes at a POS makes no sense at all. Simply set the tax to the owning corp's tax rate. Or better yet, have specific tax rates that can be set by personnel with the relevant roles.

This will allow manufacturing corps to tax their members at a reasonable rate, or for solo players with lots of alts to simply set it to 0 and maximize their gains.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Tenchi Sal
White Knights of Equestria
#238 - 2014-04-29 16:00:00 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Some general points:

- On "we don't know yet", this is a natural consequence of getting blogs out earlier rather than later. We can wait until we know everything, but then there's no time to make changes. Right now we're releasing blogs for things that are "mostly" done designing, in that the core stuff is solid and in implementation but a lot of the consequences are still being tidied up.

- More specifically, starbases. I'm being vague in no small part because this is something we're having continuing conversations about but we haven't really nailed down our approach yet, or figured out what will end up being possible in the time available.

We are totally open to suggestions for what to do with starbases as they relate to industry. In particular, if anyone who does starbase work can spend a few minutes outlining the *simplest* changes they think would be sufficient to keep starbases in a reasonable place for this release, we're very interested in hearing them. Yes, we know "throw it out and start over" would be great, but we're not getting that done between now and the summer release, no matter how much we'd like to.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#239 - 2014-04-29 16:02:34 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
NPC corp taxes at a POS makes no sense at all. Simply set the tax to the owning corp's tax rate. Or better yet, have specific tax rates that can be set by personnel with the relevant roles.

This will allow manufacturing corps to tax their members at a reasonable rate, or for solo players with lots of alts to simply set it to 0 and maximize their gains.


There isn't an NPC tax at the POS, just the workforce costs...and I'm working on getting them mitigated somewhat with exotic dancers in the POS...
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#240 - 2014-04-29 16:02:48 UTC
Iorga Eeta wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
DEATHB1RD wrote:
Qorinn Eselle wrote:
However it's calculated -- manufacturing cost as a direct function of price seems like it's going to create problems with supply/demand equilibrium and the efficiency of markets.



Price goes up -> manufacturing cost goes up -> price goes up -> manufacturing cost goes up ->infinite spiral

Sounds like we'll be moving from billions to trillions before long. Did CCP hire a bunch of bankers for econ?


Since the job cost only represent 10% of the entire cost at most, I highly doubt this is going to happen. The base price of a product is directly tied to the resources used in its construction. The relatively small cost associated with starting a job will hardly have an impact on this.



I have to pull out some math books, but I believe an infinite series like this will reach a limit not too far about the initial 10% mark of the base price of x: x + x*.1 + x*(.1)^2+x*(.1 )^3...x*(.1)^n

or better yet:

infinity
∑ X(1/10)^n = 10X/9
n=0

http://symbolab.com/solver/series-calculator


I... didn't understand any of that...

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