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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

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Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2014-04-28 15:40:52 UTC
So this will make some more copying bottlenecks now right?

Please tell me that we have thought about giving unique bonuses to FW indy Ihub tier upgrades now...and/or more/wider meaningful Dust/Eve link...

*cough* someone needs to kick DNS out of Molden Heath to claim their 20% cheaper fuel cost for POSes and 40% faster manufacturing time.
Verhanna
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2014-04-28 15:42:22 UTC
While I can see what you're doing here, I'm extremely concerned by the lost investment in time that has been made with my BPOs. You're putting all long term researchers into a competitive disadvantage and aside from "give us ideas to make you happy" don't seem to have done anything at all to mitigate that.

I dislike this design a lot because it negatively impacts me personally. Combined with the removal of standings requirements for anchoring high-sec POS and the proliferation of slots in stations I feel like everything I've worked for has been made pointless.

I'm not certain that I can think of anything you can do to make this up to people like me in-game as I cannot imagine how you can return the one thing that is constantly required in Eve Online to become good at the game -- time.

Months and months of my effort have been spent in these areas of the game trying to become "good" at it. What compensation for that loss is there really?
Theodore Knox
Ducks in Outer Space
#43 - 2014-04-28 15:43:06 UTC
Tara Tyrael wrote:


CCP, please introduce dislike button on forums, just for nutcases like this...


Just try not to feed them. Big smile
Ice Dealer
Ice Dealer Corporation
#44 - 2014-04-28 15:45:50 UTC
Thank you for a very comprehensive Dec blog!
My only question, which I'm sure many have, are t2 bpo's going to be staying?

Thank you very much!
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-04-28 15:46:03 UTC
This is big. Very big. Very very big.

Gonna need some time for an educated comment
Theodore Knox
Ducks in Outer Space
#46 - 2014-04-28 15:47:24 UTC
Verhanna wrote:
While I can see what you're doing here, I'm extremely concerned by the lost investment in time that has been made with my BPOs. You're putting all long term researchers into a competitive disadvantage and aside from "give us ideas to make you happy" don't seem to have done anything at all to mitigate that.

I dislike this design a lot because it negatively impacts me personally. Combined with the removal of standings requirements for anchoring high-sec POS and the proliferation of slots in stations I feel like everything I've worked for has been made pointless.

I'm not certain that I can think of anything you can do to make this up to people like me in-game as I cannot imagine how you can return the one thing that is constantly required in Eve Online to become good at the game -- time.

Months and months of my effort have been spent in these areas of the game trying to become "good" at it. What compensation for that loss is there really?


I think we need to be careful about using emotive language like "effort" here. I don't confess to having many insanely researched BPOs, but even the ones I do have were built up passively over time. Words like "effort" should apply to people who've gamed insane standings, not silly 0.000000000000000000000000000001% improvements on manufacturing costs.

We need to be honest, the ME system as it is stupid. Fixing it will be good for the game longer term.
1Robert McNamara1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2014-04-28 15:47:46 UTC
Gotta say, I'm still nervous about my BPO library's health post patch.
- I'd like to see more details on the ME/TE times required for T1/T2 BPOs
- I'd also like to see more details on your conversion method with some examples


I'd really like to see a method to combine/divide BPCs of = ME/TE values. Data/Relic site runners end up with tons of low-run BPCs that aren't worth selling individually. They have to bundle 20+ runs worth just to make the contract system's broker fee worth their while...
- it would open up a new business where people bought low run BPCs, combined them and sold the larger run output to high volume builders.


The BPC market really sucks in general. I'm surprised Eve is focusing on BPC building process when the BPC exchange system is so challenging. How many clicks does it take to sell a BPC vs. any other loot? How many clicks does it take to know what the hell you're getting from a BPC contract? Look at the decryptor market for example, some contracts have 30+ BPCs and you need to go 2 layers deep to know how many runs of various TE/ME values... it's a mess.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#48 - 2014-04-28 15:49:50 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
And so ends the cottage industry of creating high quality capital ship and capital component BPC's for resale.




I'm sure your components were much more "high quality" than mine and they will now cease to be produced because... you said so.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2014-04-28 15:50:41 UTC
Verhanna wrote:
While I can see what you're doing here, I'm extremely concerned by the lost investment in time that has been made with my BPOs. You're putting all long term researchers into a competitive disadvantage and aside from "give us ideas to make you happy" don't seem to have done anything at all to mitigate that.

long-term researchers were not at a competitive advantage: they had squandered huge amounts of lost funds in opportunity costs for incredibly insignificant savings that in no way made up for the lost ROI

long-term researchers were making the dumb mistake this devblog is helping to avoid newbies making: thinking much bigger numbers=better

the dropoff in value of ME after 20 was so severe that only fools researched anything besides capital component bpos over that, fools should not be rewarded for their foolishness

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Tara Tyrael
Quantum Anomaly Corporation
#50 - 2014-04-28 15:50:43 UTC
Theodore Knox wrote:
Tara Tyrael wrote:


CCP, please introduce dislike button on forums, just for nutcases like this...


Just try not to feed them. Big smile


Doesn't work, they live from photosynthesis, they only need a light source, can even be dimmed screen light...
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#51 - 2014-04-28 15:51:20 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:
So this will make some more copying bottlenecks now right?

Please tell me that we have thought about giving unique bonuses to FW indy Ihub tier upgrades now...and/or more/wider meaningful Dust/Eve link...

*cough* someone needs to kick DNS out of Molden Heath to claim their 20% cheaper fuel cost for POSes and 40% faster manufacturing time.




If the bonus isn't meaningful, why do you want them kicked out? Are you just jealous?
Sturmwolke
#52 - 2014-04-28 15:51:43 UTC
A few things.

1) The relationship between ME/TE and the Industry/ME skills. This here is weakpoint after you fixed all that confusion.
For example. Wrapping you heads around L4 ME skill/L5 Industry and building an ME 10%/PE20% BPC isn't exactly a trivial thing.

2) Capital BPOs. Most of them (from established research corps) have perfect ME level (or even more) and a PE 1-2 typically.
Please clarify how will these translate for certain MEs like for example a perfect Orca BPO ME6/PE2? Orca ME10%/TE4%?

3) With the proposed changed, I foresee TE levels gaining more focus and attention for gaining advantage.
One suggestion for overresearched ME level BPOs - convert the excess to TE as a form of fair compensation (to recoup the advantage lost once you've flattened out the ME to max at 10%).
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#53 - 2014-04-28 15:53:02 UTC
Verhanna wrote:
While I can see what you're doing here, I'm extremely concerned by the lost investment in time that has been made with my BPOs. You're putting all long term researchers into a competitive disadvantage and aside from "give us ideas to make you happy" don't seem to have done anything at all to mitigate that.

I dislike this design a lot because it negatively impacts me personally. Combined with the removal of standings requirements for anchoring high-sec POS and the proliferation of slots in stations I feel like everything I've worked for has been made pointless.

I'm not certain that I can think of anything you can do to make this up to people like me in-game as I cannot imagine how you can return the one thing that is constantly required in Eve Online to become good at the game -- time.

Months and months of my effort have been spent in these areas of the game trying to become "good" at it. What compensation for that loss is there really?






Compensation: You get to abuse your advantage until patch day.
Twentyone 12
Test For Echo
#54 - 2014-04-28 15:54:59 UTC
Verhanna wrote:
While I can see what you're doing here, I'm extremely concerned by the lost investment in time that has been made with my BPOs. You're putting all long term researchers into a competitive disadvantage and aside from "give us ideas to make you happy" don't seem to have done anything at all to mitigate that.

I dislike this design a lot because it negatively impacts me personally. Combined with the removal of standings requirements for anchoring high-sec POS and the proliferation of slots in stations I feel like everything I've worked for has been made pointless.

I'm not certain that I can think of anything you can do to make this up to people like me in-game as I cannot imagine how you can return the one thing that is constantly required in Eve Online to become good at the game -- time.

Months and months of my effort have been spent in these areas of the game trying to become "good" at it. What compensation for that loss is there really?



If it might be slightly bad or inconvenient for you but good for the game, do you think that CCP should go ahead and do it?

/2112
Crebba
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-04-28 16:01:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Crebba
First of why change something to make it easier to understand? That's why all other games becomes boring after a few years since developers insists on dumbing down all aspects of the game until there is basically no complexity left. The thing I love most about eve is that I have played it for 4 years now and there is still new things to learn every week.

To the main point of the post. When I make a decision to invest isk/time into researching or buying a researched blueprint it's not because I want to build this module 500 tritanium cheaper than the original cost since face it none in their right mind uses unresearched blueprints for their daily industry. It's to produce the module a few % cheaper then the other guys who didn't bother or have time to do that little extra research. That way I can turn out a bether profit for the same sell price or just drop the prices and still make the same profit per module as he is. So if I woke up tomorrow and it costed me 10% more to produce my module than it would have the day before it wouldn't be so bad as long as everyone elses production price went up with the same margin and i therefore I still keep the effort/ISK I invested into adding extra research time on my blueprint compared to my competitors.

If i understand this section correctly:
Quote:
This would mean that ME/TE 1 become ME 5%/TE 10%, ME/TE 5-9 become ME 9%/TE 18%, and anything over ME/TE 10 currently move to ME 10%/TE 20%.


Then my Raven blueprint that i researched to 40 ME would basically become the same as a blueprint that someone else researched to ME 10.

Lets crunch some numbers
Production price ME 40: 180 268 251 ISK
Production price ME 10: 181 203 436 ISK

My blueprint is netting me 935 k isk more for every ship i produce, it doesn't seem much but its 2 bil isk/year that I would have earned more because i spent 75 days more researching my blueprint than what he did.

If you have to revamp the system then why would you not just take the amount of time spent researching a blueprint and then just set the new ME value to whatever level you would get if you spent that time researching the BPO after the patch?

TLDR:
A overall bump or decrease in costs doesn't really matter in the long run but ruining peoples competitive edge by giving other people your investment for free is not fair and just plain stupid.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#56 - 2014-04-28 16:05:09 UTC
Crebba wrote:
First of why change something to make it easier to understand? That's why all other games becomes boring after a few years since developers insists on dumbing down all aspects of the game until there is basically no complexity left. The thing I love most about eve is that I have played it for 4 years now and there is still new things to learn every week.

To the main point of the post. When I make a decision to invest isk/time into researching or buying a researched blueprint it's not because I want to build this module 500 tritanium cheaper than the original cost since face it none in their right mind uses unresearched blueprints for their daily industry. It's to produce the module a few % cheaper then the other guys who didn't bother or have time to do that little extra research. That way I can turn out a bether profit for the same sell price or just drop the prices and still make the same profit per module as he is. So if I woke up tomorrow and it costed me 10% more to produce my module than it would have the day before it wouldn't be so bad as long as everyone elses production price went up with the same margin and i therefore I still keep the effort/ISK I invested into adding extra research time on my blueprint compared to my competitors.

If i understand this section correctly:
Quote:
This would mean that ME/TE 1 become ME 5%/TE 10%, ME/TE 5-9 become ME 9%/TE 18%, and anything over ME/TE 10 currently move to ME 10%/TE 20%.


Then my Raven blueprint that i researched to 40 ME would basically become the same as a blueprint that someone else researched to ME 10.

Lets crunch some numbers
Production price ME 40: 180 268 251 ISK
Production price ME 10: 181 203 436 ISK

My blueprint is netting me 935 k isk more for every ship i produce, it doesn't seem much but its 2 bil isk/year that I would have earned more because i spent 75 days more researching my blueprint than what he did.

If you have to revamp the system then why would you not just take the amount of time spent researching a blueprint and then just set the new ME value to whatever level you would get if you spent that time researching the BPO after the patch?

TLDR:
A overall bump or decrease in costs doesn't really matter in the long run but ruining peoples competitive edge by giving other people your investment for free is not fair and plain stupid.




First of all let me congratulate you for not reading the dev blog, but still coming to post about it.


Secondly your BPO will not get any worse, and research is not free (but if it is then you shouldn't mind trading for a 0 ME Raven BPO today, eh?).
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#57 - 2014-04-28 16:05:33 UTC
Crebba wrote:
First of why change something to make it easier to understand?

Seriously? You're against making things easier to understand?

There's no mastery in going to chruker and looking up optimal ME on a blueprint. It's just unnecessary legwork.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#58 - 2014-04-28 16:08:06 UTC
Whelp....

Every. Single. Spreadsheet. I've. Made. Over. ... this is getting exhausting...

Every single spreadsheet i've made over the past 10 years will need to be redone. baaaaaaaaaah. maybe it was time to combine them all with self-referencing cells and even more nested if .... blah.

Nah, I'm not mad. I just like to complain for a good 30 seconds.

I'll smile at the changes (thank god... eff that ME system) and move on.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2014-04-28 16:08:13 UTC
CCP_Greyscale wrote:
Unless this leads to a major expansion of invent-to-sell, the actual throughput of invention should not significantly change as a result of shorter copy times.


You are significantly changing an aspect of the T2 production system. We can expect good players to adapt. Do you have plans if they adapt and expand invent-to-sell significantly?

Converting the old blueprints
Your right some of us have researched things above ME/TE 10, and your suggestion devalues that effort. You would like to see some suggestions and ideas.
My first idea:
Time comparison - You know how much time it would have taken to research a blueprint in the old system. You know how much time it will take to research a blueprint in the new system. Set the time equal and let the ME/TE fall into the appropriate spot.
Example: You spent 1d 11h researching your Depleted Uranium S Blueprint (to perfect). You now get an ME 9 (not perfect) blueprint since it takes 1d to get there in the new system.
It's not perfect? - Great now you can spend some more time researching since you like prefect blueprints.
What about my extra 11h? - All extra time should be returned in some form of a credit. A quick research bonus which can be used up. This means if you spent 40 days researching the Depleted Uranium we give you a Blueprint with ME 10 (perfect) plus credit for 37 days of ME research to improve your future research.
All times credited at station rates allowing benefits for those who used a POS.
No favor is really given. If you did the research time then you receive a reward. People who like perfect ME will likely get their perfection back (and spend any credited time making that happen). Everyone who did the basic ME 10 research will get their time credited to them for their efforts.
But someone else did the research!? And you bought their efforts for isk - congratulations! (Current holding character receives bonus time).
But there are so many calculations! That is why you have a computer.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2014-04-28 16:10:31 UTC
So how about cap ships which become perfect in single digit numbers but have huge cost differences with just one more unit. So like the Rorqual for example I think it was perfect at ME 8 iirc with the new system it looks like that will no longer be perfect am I reading that correctly? Also it seems like it might take a serious amount longer to get those last 2 ME levels than it would now. I am reading that correctly? How will going from ME 9 to ME 10 take compared to now longer?

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