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The obvious

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Mac Stern
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-04-26 17:43:12 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Not to denigrate the OP, but one should keep in mind that one person's "obvious" is another person's "OMG! How Freaking Stupid Can You Be?!?"


Some are obviously people of thought and another is one of knee jerk reaction. With emphasis on the ****. But really thank you for your well thought debate...
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2014-04-26 17:44:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
RIP in peace
You keep using those words. I don't think they mean what you think they mean.


Acrodundant, (Acronym redundant) like PIN number and CFC coalition.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#23 - 2014-04-26 17:47:03 UTC
I can go AFK in a cloaked heron outside of an enemy's station and have my account broadcasting the video feed of what my character sees without my needing to be there, giving my corporation an advantage due to having an action being performed with out my needing to be there that gives them reconnaissance information, all AFK.

Here's an example:
http://www.twitch.tv/fw_subsparx

Now this is being broadcasted so everyone can see it by an afk cloaker.

Now if this can be done publicly so everyone can see it, then the possibility exists that it can be done privately.

An apt demonstration where an AFK cloaker can be performing an important activity while AFK and not stopped because of his being allowed to remain cloaked by CCP's broken cloaking mechanics.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#24 - 2014-04-26 17:48:01 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
RIP in peace
You keep using those words. I don't think they mean what you think they mean.

Acrodundant, (Acronym redundant) like PIN number and CFC coalition.

Also RAS* Syndrome, because self-referential names are always fun. P

* Redundant Acronym Syndrome.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-04-26 17:48:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Unless you are a cloaky camper, then you are 100% safe when undocked.

Not really, no. It has its elements of risk, especially if you're trying to actually do something useful.



Like stop people from undocking, just from your presence?

Logged in, just to see if our cloaky camper still where. 22 in system. 20 in station. Asked friend if the one undocked ship other than teh cloaky was his rorq at POS. Yep!



There is no risk to EITHER side in the cloaky camper game. It is simply a totally risk free way of shutting down a system...

And I'm not paying to play that game. Accounts unsubbed and just playing EVE offline (AKA forums) until my subs run out.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-04-26 17:49:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
RIP in peace
You keep using those words. I don't think they mean what you think they mean.

Acrodundant, (Acronym redundant) like PIN number and CFC coalition.

Also RAS* Syndrome, because self-referential names are always fun. P

* Redundant Acronym Syndrome.



Creation of the Department of Redundancy Department?
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2014-04-26 17:51:06 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Migui X'hyrrn wrote:
The obvious would be that after 11 years of EVE Online people realized that undocking means that you are accepting everyone to shoot at you.

Stop trying to make EVE a Theme Park. It will not happen.


Except for cloakers. People who cloak don't have to worry about the risk of pvp.


Depends on where they are. In a WH, yes they do, as they have to decloak to launch probes, even in a dedicated cloaky. If you are in someone's hole, and they want you dead badly enough (and have sufficient coverage in different TZs)... While it's not guaranteed, you can catch one.

Now, if all they want to do is hide, and never actually find a way out, or interact with you in any way... Then it can get very tricky, but at that point, I don't care if they are there.
Mac Stern
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-04-26 17:51:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
RIP in peace
You keep using those words. I don't think they mean what you think they mean.

Acrodundant, (Acronym redundant) like PIN number and CFC coalition.

Also RAS* Syndrome, because self-referential names are always fun. P

* Redundant Acronym Syndrome.

High jacker
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2014-04-26 17:54:13 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Like stop people from undocking, just from your presence?
But again, that's not something the cloaker has any control over whatsoever.
If he wants to take any active role in what happens in a system, he will have to put himself at risk. Even if he's just AFKing, there's still risk, albeit a fairly minute one.

Quote:
It is simply a totally risk free way of shutting down a system...
There's one fairly huge risk: that the inhabitants decide not to shut the system down.

Quote:
Creation of the Department of Redundancy Department?
Pretty much. Especially if you can sneak in a second “creation of…” in there somehow. Lol
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#30 - 2014-04-26 17:59:26 UTC
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Migui X'hyrrn wrote:
The obvious would be that after 11 years of EVE Online people realized that undocking means that you are accepting everyone to shoot at you.

Stop trying to make EVE a Theme Park. It will not happen.


Except for cloakers. People who cloak don't have to worry about the risk of pvp.


Depends on where they are. In a WH, yes they do, as they have to decloak to launch probes, even in a dedicated cloaky. If you are in someone's hole, and they want you dead badly enough (and have sufficient coverage in different TZs)... While it's not guaranteed, you can catch one.

Now, if all they want to do is hide, and never actually find a way out, or interact with you in any way... Then it can get very tricky, but at that point, I don't care if they are there.


So your choosing not to care about them is your own choice, but I've already illustrated a potential scenario where an AFK cloaker can have a very real impact with this post here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4516103#post4516103
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-04-26 18:05:04 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Migui X'hyrrn wrote:
The obvious would be that after 11 years of EVE Online people realized that undocking means that you are accepting everyone to shoot at you.

Stop trying to make EVE a Theme Park. It will not happen.


Except for cloakers. People who cloak don't have to worry about the risk of pvp.


Depends on where they are. In a WH, yes they do, as they have to decloak to launch probes, even in a dedicated cloaky. If you are in someone's hole, and they want you dead badly enough (and have sufficient coverage in different TZs)... While it's not guaranteed, you can catch one.

Now, if all they want to do is hide, and never actually find a way out, or interact with you in any way... Then it can get very tricky, but at that point, I don't care if they are there.


So your choosing not to care about them is your own choice, but I've already illustrated a potential scenario where an AFK cloaker can have a very real impact with this post here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4516103#post4516103



Wormhole space. They can't find an exit without revealing themselves. They can monitor a POS, sure. They can't tell anyone how to get to it. After I roll the hole, their way in is gone. And if they are posting a public twitch feed, I can find them & decloak them.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-04-26 18:08:59 UTC
I think the obvious is that CCP has the balance pretty close to right for high sec.

However, the game breaking mechanic of invincibility of cloaky camping is why there are so many players in high and so few in null.

Any attempt to fix risk v. reward and lure more players out of high, and into null, will fail until cloaky camping has been fixed.


And by "fixed", I don't mean prevented. I simply mean that you have to be at the keyboard to do it.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#33 - 2014-04-26 18:10:23 UTC
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:


Alright so wormhole space is one area of space where afk cloaking MIGHT not have an impact, but that doesn't negate the possibility of an impact potentially existing within wormhole space.

And it definitely doesn't negate the potential impact that could happen in Null, high, or low.

Also, if CCP added a mechanic that caused a cloak to turn off after the game determined the player was AFK, it wouldn't impact any of the reasons you listed.

If a mechanic were introduced that detected and decloaked an afk cloaked player,

then "
Quote:
Wormhole space. They can't find an exit without revealing themselves. They can monitor a POS, sure. They can't tell anyone how to get to it. After I roll the hole, their way in is gone. And if they are posting a public twitch feed, I can find them & decloak them.
" would not be effected.

Also, there are other broadcasting sites besides twitch, sites that offer private channels that you couldn't find because they're not open to the public.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-04-26 18:12:07 UTC
Mac Stern wrote:
Obviously they only way to make more people happy with this game would be to split it in two. Those that want pvp, and those who dont. That way 100 percent miners/ratters could enjoy there time in the game with out the interference of some pvp player. As for pvp players they could hot drop and cloaky camp each other into Armageddon. Cloaky camping and botting are just about the same anyway... just one activity is pvp other pve. The pvp player might actually have something to be proud of rather then... i blew up a retriever with my 900 mil panther black ops, im so OP... Anyways prolly going to get trolls and possibly some valid arguements but i doubt it. Also prolly it will be locked or deleted quick like by CCP. Ships can be caught ratting or mining without abusing game mechanics and fights to can be had with those who want too.

If by PVP you mean all forms of PVP (e.g. competing for asteroid belts), if you remove it you don't even get a GAME anymore. It's more like the test server.

If by PVP you just mean spaceships going boom, why would you want to make a spaceship game with people competing against eachother in every way except blowing up spaceships?

Also, EVE being single-shard is one of its major oustanding features.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2014-04-26 18:12:51 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
And by "fixed", I don't mean prevented. I simply mean that you have to be at the keyboard to do it.
What difference would it make if they were?

The problem you've described has nothing to do with the cloak and would exist even without that module because it's not the one that's causing your issues. What you want “fixed” is cynos.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#36 - 2014-04-26 18:12:59 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
I think the obvious is that CCP has the balance pretty close to right for high sec.

However, the game breaking mechanic of invincibility of cloaky camping is why there are so many players in high and so few in null.

Any attempt to fix risk v. reward and lure more players out of high, and into null, will fail until cloaky camping has been fixed.


And by "fixed", I don't mean prevented. I simply mean that you have to be at the keyboard to do it.

i'm reasonably sure its the guys actively hunting me that keep me out of low/null and not some dude having his dinner/at work.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
stoicfaux
#37 - 2014-04-26 18:15:52 UTC
Mac Stern wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Not to denigrate the OP, but one should keep in mind that one person's "obvious" is another person's "OMG! How Freaking Stupid Can You Be?!?"


Some are obviously people of thought and another is one of knee jerk reaction. With emphasis on the ****. But really thank you for your well thought debate...

Obviously, it's not obvious that your quote about "Obviously they only way to make more people happy with this game would be to split it in two." being "obvious" isn't obvious. Meaning, let me make it obvious that I, for one, think you need to justify your assumption that the PvE and PvE focused players want to be segregated, especially given the obvious interactions needed between the PvE and PvP markets and industries.



Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#38 - 2014-04-26 18:16:43 UTC
RIP in peace afk cloaker defense
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2014-04-26 18:32:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
And by "fixed", I don't mean prevented. I simply mean that you have to be at the keyboard to do it.
What difference would it make if they were?

The problem you've described has nothing to do with the cloak and would exist even without that module because it's not the one that's causing your issues. What you want “fixed” is cynos.


This.

Now, honestly what I don't understand is, if you don't want to be in a high risk pvp area... Why exactly did you move to null sec?

If a hot drop is such a constant risk, why not organize a counter drop force? If it's not risky enough to justify that, I'm not sure why it's a problem. (I would think out of 4602 members of the Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere, you could get 50 or so on standby, if they were that much of an issue.)
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2014-04-26 18:37:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
And by "fixed", I don't mean prevented. I simply mean that you have to be at the keyboard to do it.
What difference would it make if they were?

The problem you've described has nothing to do with the cloak and would exist even without that module because it's not the one that's causing your issues. What you want “fixed” is cynos.



Not at all.

I do not mind cynos.

I do not want the cloaky camper's ability to shut down a system fixed.

I just want them to have to be at the keyboard, actually playing the game, to accomplish it.

Shut off the cloak every once in awhile. Maybe even a loud klaxon, like low shield/armor/structure/cap, that the cloak is shutting down.

If they are at the keyboard, they just turn it back on.


It is a SUPER tiny change, that simply requires someone actually be at the keyboard to accomplish the goal of shutting down all mining and ratting in a solar system.