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New dev blog: Player Owned Customs Offices: An update!

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ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#781 - 2011-12-03 22:38:52 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:


PI harvest worlds are still very easy for the new player to get into, at least in hi-sec.

- 3-4 days to train Command Center Upgrades to 4, Interplanetary Consolidation to 4, and optionally train Planetology to 3.
- Setting up a PI harvest world costs about 6.5M ISK for a CCU4 level world.
- Payback for a safe hi-sec PI harvest world is now around 7-10 days (used to be 10-14).
- Reset daily or every other day, 5-10 minutes to reset 5 worlds.
- Haul weekly.

So after that first week, your 35M ISK investment is paying off at 4-5M ISK/day.

We spend a lot of time each week teaching new players how to setup hi-sec PI harvest colonies. They love being in control of a way to make that 4-5M/day. It helps them bankroll getting into other aspects of the game faster. Eventually they might decide to try out doing harvesting at a friendly location in lo-sec, or moving up into the P2/P3/P4 factory worlds. Or they eventually outgrow thinking at 4-5M/day is a lot of ISK and turn to other pursuits. They worry less about losing a tackle frigate in PvP (even though we provide those for free along with the skillbooks to fly them).


When I was no longer a new player, but still struggling financially due to not having time to do more profitable activities, a friend donated a small amount for me to get started in PI. And it had just the effect you describe, and I've passed that on to many since.

This was, in fact, my own path into leaving hisec behind for life in losec. That's why I care about making the losec aspects of this work, even though now losec is just a slightly more dangerous stretch along my routes to and from my wormhole.

I think losec is a valuable learning ground, but for it to work, it has to provide a reasonable learning path, and a reasonable ISK reward. Neither tight control of PI by large alliances nor abandonment as a PI wasteland would be good for relatively new players, and thus not good for the game.

What's needed is for the balance to be struck that allows it to be enticingly profitable, yet accessible to players who can't fly a blockade runner, nor have the backing of a fleet of PvP-capable corpmates. These people should have a viable shot at this. If that happens, I personally will deem this a success, at least for the PI side.

I'm still quite disturbed and perturbed by the corporatist way this is designed, that POCOs can only be owned by corporations, not players. I think that's entirely the wrong direction. But it's not likely to be a big factor in the overall success, at least as it's designed now.
milandinia
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort
Deepwater Hooligans
#782 - 2011-12-03 22:45:19 UTC
if someone wants to test it, mail "Julia Rankin" and i set the tax rate to 1% for these chars

the POCOS are in 3x Ostingele (0.2) 1x Haroule (0.1) and 1x Cumemare (0.1)
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#783 - 2011-12-03 23:45:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Dant
ZaBob wrote:
One thing that's not clear to me yet is how much information the POCO gets about their customers, how that information will be handled within the corp, whether bored corp members might use that to go "Oh, that's FreddyBear; he's going to the CO at Planet X, let's go gank him for giggles". I don't think that'll happen a lot, but what will matter is whether FreddyBear thinks it does. If that information isn't available, then no change.

It is displayed in corp wallet. But that information is already available via the planet view anyway (admitedly, it's far clumsier than just reading).

Edit: forgot to add, the CO is so big, it's not all that easy to catch someone taking due precautions, such as checking the CO from an on grid spot and warping to it at an odd angle.

Quote:
But regardless, I think you slightly misinterpret my remarks. I wasn't arguing that all -- or even any -- would be why this will fail. I was saying that if none of those factors derail it, it might succeed.

So if you want to earn money from your POCO taxes, don't gank your customers - consider protecting them instead. Protect your POCOs, with firepower and diplomacy.

For anecdotal evidence, a few days ago I helped a friend, -10, to setup a POCO. A bit later he told me about his first customer: "I thought he was at a safe and was probing him down. Then I saw my wallet flash and thought i'd let him go".

Quote:
I'm pretty sure the fight to defend it would be a lot more fun than the fight to take it down. :) Personally, I don't expect a lot of that, though. But I'd say it's an open question whether anyone BUT a corp with a strong PvP contingent can keep one up for long.

Probably not. But a PVP corp does not have an interest in closing planets to outsiders, so in the end they are the best neutral holders. I have found "lowsec carebears" tend to be a lot more openly territorial than pirates.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#784 - 2011-12-04 00:13:08 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
ZaBob wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
One thing that's not clear to me yet is how much information the POCO gets about their customers, how that information will be handled within the corp, whether bored corp members might use that to go "Oh, that's FreddyBear; he's going to the CO at Planet X, let's go gank him for giggles". I don't think that'll happen a lot, but what will matter is whether FreddyBear thinks it does. If that information isn't available, then no change.

It is displayed in corp wallet. But that information is already available via the planet view anyway (admitedly, it's far clumsier than just reading).

Quote:
But regardless, I think you slightly misinterpret my remarks. I wasn't arguing that all -- or even any -- would be why this will fail. I was saying that if none of those factors derail it, it might succeed.

So if you want to earn money from your POCO taxes, don't gank your customers - consider protecting them instead. Protect your POCOs, with firepower and diplomacy.

For anecdotal evidence, a few days ago I helped a friend, -10, to setup a POCO. A bit later he told me about his first customer: "I thought he was at a safe and was probing him down. Then I saw my wallet flash and thought i'd let him go".

[quote]I'm pretty sure the fight to defend it would be a lot more fun than the fight to take it down. :) Personally, I don't expect a lot of that, though. But I'd say it's an open question whether anyone BUT a corp with a strong PvP contingent can keep one up for long.

Probably not. But a PVP corp does not have an interest in closing planets to outsiders, so in the end they are the best neutral holders. I have found "lowsec carebears" tend to be a lot more openly territorial than pirates.


Information about when a PI person visits the planet isn't in the PI interface. Of course, that's only relevant if they're predictable.

Finding PI installations on planets is so painful I seldom bother, even when it's in my economic interest to do so, and even with my strong curiosity. If you want interaction with Planetary Interaction, we need to be able to see each other!

Hell, if I've been using a planet for a while and move things around a few times -- I have a hek of a time finding my OWN installations.

Thanks for the anecdote. I wonder what his reaction to his 100th customer will be?
Jason C
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#785 - 2011-12-04 00:44:12 UTC
Bottom line is this... CCP is turning my fun into a job. And I'm not here to "work".
Sluht Hunter
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#786 - 2011-12-04 01:08:25 UTC
Jason C wrote:
Bottom line is this... CCP is turning my fun into a job. And I'm not here to "work".


+1


we figured up build cost and upgrade to do our wh planets.. 1.84 billion isk.. and all we do is pull pi for pos fuel in there. This is almost more intolerable than when we were paying pi taxes to concord in a WH.. and receiving none of the concord benefits like protection or sov. Thanks again CCP. ... NOT
tengen san
Triton-TC
#787 - 2011-12-04 02:04:07 UTC
ZaBob wrote:


Thanks for the anecdote. I wonder what his reaction to his 100th customer will be?


I do low sec PI for a good while now, just had blown a hauler two weeks ago. Empty cargo and the sleepy thought “what the heck it will work”. Well, it did not!

Any other of my aprox, 250 rides in low sec I never had a problem. I worked out a pick up procedure enabling me to: align to gate, get out of cloak, open CO hangar, pick up the god's and warp out within 2,0 sec.( this isn’t the sequence I use so don’t try) I have no intentions to change that just because I have become customer to a POCO corp. And being able now to select "jump" is just a great feature and makes business in low sec become regular for me, getting on stations with a ME/copy slot NOT waiting for 40 days getting in one.

And yes, if I get along with the owner and the POCO gets under attack, I would come by to defend it, it’s existence is in my interest just. So, pew pew around it is OK and fine with me.
Illectroculus Defined
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#788 - 2011-12-04 05:24:33 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
To suggest that this will negatively impact the economy of eve would be like suggesting that flying a noob ship into a pirate choke point solo is a bad idea or that CCP has no real clue about how the game works outside nullsec.


As threatened I proved how utterly ridiculous this posters statement was by making a video of what happens when you fly a noob ship into the infamous lowsec pirate hangout of Amamake. To further grind home the original posters lack of understanding the character had no skills trained and the person actually playing the game was a 6 year old girl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQaBiUQkaRE

It'd a very uneventful video, but then again this whole thing is a metaphor for the PI economy, the sky isn't falling, prices will adjust, and PI will continue to be profitable.
disasteur
disasterous industries
#789 - 2011-12-04 05:36:07 UTC
Illectroculus Defined wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
To suggest that this will negatively impact the economy of eve would be like suggesting that flying a noob ship into a pirate choke point solo is a bad idea or that CCP has no real clue about how the game works outside nullsec.


As threatened I proved how utterly ridiculous this posters statement was by making a video of what happens when you fly a noob ship into the infamous lowsec pirate hangout of Amamake. To further grind home the original posters lack of understanding the character had no skills trained and the person actually playing the game was a 6 year old girl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQaBiUQkaRE

It'd a very uneventful video, but then again this whole thing is a metaphor for the PI economy, the sky isn't falling, prices will adjust, and PI will continue to be profitable.



the sky is falling and my computer cant take the tax rate, my display driver is protesting and my mouse doesnt dare to come near a customs office ever again
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#790 - 2011-12-04 06:11:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ZaBob
Illectroculus Defined wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
To suggest that this will negatively impact the economy of eve would be like suggesting that flying a noob ship into a pirate choke point solo is a bad idea or that CCP has no real clue about how the game works outside nullsec.


As threatened I proved how utterly ridiculous this posters statement was by making a video of what happens when you fly a noob ship into the infamous lowsec pirate hangout of Amamake. To further grind home the original posters lack of understanding the character had no skills trained and the person actually playing the game was a 6 year old girl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQaBiUQkaRE

It'd a very uneventful video, but then again this whole thing is a metaphor for the PI economy, the sky isn't falling, prices will adjust, and PI will continue to be profitable.



Uneventful? I don't think that's the word I'd use.

How about "Delightful?"

My wife would smartbomb ME if I involved my daughter (some battles aren't worth fighting), but I enjoyed watching yours play and interact with you. Good dad!

And a nice expository, too. I thought about responding to that post; I'm glad I didn't; you did a much better job.

It's not flying a noob ship through a pirate haven that's a bad idea, it's being a ->clueless<- noob flying through a pirate haven in a ship you don't even know how to fly properly, that's a bad idea. Like my first losec adventure in my shiny new Catalyst, way back when.

Mentioning smartbombs was a nice touch. I lost a frigate to a smartbomb once, zipping along losec, saw all the wrecks and the red as I warped to the gate, but figured I was safe enough, as I jumped through -- and was then puzzled why my ship suddenly had more cap. I was half-way to the next gate before I realized I was in my pod, and half-way to my destination before I figured out why, and checked my log to confirm.

But I hope you didn't lump me in with the OP! Not all of us who have concerns about balance and the effect on losec PI are afraid to fly a noob ship through a gate camp. My own concerns center more around the dynamics of POCOs and whether their economics and interactions are balanced well enough to make it economical. If POCOs end up being scarce, there won't be a reason to fly that cargo frigate past that gate.

And there are aspects of the mechanics I just don't like -- like being one more corp-only thing.

I don't claim to know what's going to happen. It all depends on thousands of interacting decisions by thousands of players, interacting, and on CCP's subsequent tweaks. There are some possible futures I don't like, where POCOs are too much trouble to put up and maintain, or the tax rates are set to not give enough incentive for people to move to losec.

There are things that make such a future less likely -- and the higher tax rates are, in my estimation at least, one of things that might help this work. I don't like the way they were introduced, nor how they were calculated, but you have to make POCOs a viable enterprise in losec, and the higher taxes help that considerably.

Anyway, thanks for that video. I'm actually going to find a way to use that in training pilots for losec. I wish I'd seen it early in my career, it would have helped me understand how things worked much better. And I can't think of a better confidence builder than having your daughter demonstrate how it's done!

[edit: Tell her ZaBob says she's a great explainer!]
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
#791 - 2011-12-04 10:44:23 UTC
After a couple of days experimenting with the new PI I have a few concerns about the recording of taxation in the custom offices.

It's not about the height of the tax or anything just that the payments are recorded in the journal with date, time and the planet number. Attention This information can be used to exploit the planetary producers. The pick up times and other activities can be recorded by the receiver and they can set up attacks accordingly by themselves or others.

The new system can be exploited by good organized pilots, so I ask that the planet number may be removed from the journal entry. Perhaps the entry should be removed entirely from the journal.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#792 - 2011-12-04 11:59:55 UTC
Elayae wrote:
After a couple of days experimenting with the new PI I have a few concerns about the recording of taxation in the custom offices.

It's not about the height of the tax or anything just that the payments are recorded in the journal with date, time and the planet number. Attention This information can be used to exploit the planetary producers. The pick up times and other activities can be recorded by the receiver and they can set up attacks accordingly by themselves or others.

The new system can be exploited by good organized pilots, so I ask that the planet number may be removed from the journal entry. Perhaps the entry should be removed entirely from the journal.


The planet number is required, because operators need to know which of their POCOs are profitable and which aren't. You could argue about the pilot name, but I can think of as many good uses for that as bad. If the intel it provides becomes a problem, the best solution would be to delay entries as it does with rat bounties, so the time becomes fuzzy.

But really, even if POCOs are not that expensive, people will prefer to get their investment back and not drive away customers. So attacks on the haulers should be rare.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Yosarian
Koshaku
#793 - 2011-12-04 14:02:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Yosarian
Having spent time buried in spreadsheet calculating various tax rates for different PI operations, the changes overall make sense and certainly add a lot more 'meaning' to PI as an activity.

I would suggest changes to give POCO owners more control over how they set tax:

- Allow the POCO owner to set different tax levels for each tier of product.

Eg: a POCO owner could set a high 'extraction tax' (tier 0-1) whilst having a lower 'processing tax' (tiers 2-4).

- Allow the POCO owner to set different tax levels on different commodities.

Eg: a POCO owner could lower the cost of production of certain commodities (eg needed pos fuels) whilst keeping a higher tax for everything else

Not the easiest UI to design, but more control = more options for players to create business models. The UI should enable grouping of POCOs, so tax changes / settings can be managed over large amounts of POCOs.

Another thought: a means of advertising POCOs might be interesting. Perhaps similar to fleet finder (eg: options to show only to players with certain standings). This would enable POCO owners to compete on price, then bring in customers.

In other words... right direction, but more fine-grained control please.
Akane Mishima
Verispex Conglomerated
#794 - 2011-12-04 14:58:17 UTC
Yosarian wrote:
Having spent time buried in spreadsheet calculating various tax rates for different PI operations, the changes overall make sense and certainly add a lot more 'meaning' to PI as an activity.

I would suggest changes to give POCO owners more control over how they set tax:

- Allow the POCO owner to set different tax levels for each tier of product.

Eg: a POCO owner could set a high 'extraction tax' (tier 0-1) whilst having a lower 'processing tax' (tiers 2-4).

- Allow the POCO owner to set different tax levels on different commodities.

Eg: a POCO owner could lower the cost of production of certain commodities (eg needed pos fuels) whilst keeping a higher tax for everything else

Not the easiest UI to design, but more control = more options for players to create business models. The UI should enable grouping of POCOs, so tax changes / settings can be managed over large amounts of POCOs.

Another thought: a means of advertising POCOs might be interesting. Perhaps similar to fleet finder (eg: options to show only to players with certain standings). This would enable POCO owners to compete on price, then bring in customers.

In other words... right direction, but more fine-grained control please.


There we go something I can agree with. Getting POCO owners and PI peeps to work together seems alot more enjoyable, sustainable ISK rather than having them work against eachother. I like the idea of the tax rates being different for PI, that way maybe we could cut a deal like me supplying a certain amount of Fuel and I get a discount off Taxes.

I think POCOs should actually be better than the current concord customs offices, is there any difference between them? If not I'd like there to be some form of upgrade to work towards to make my operations much more convienent and giving the POCOs owner an advantage over other planets.
tengen san
Triton-TC
#795 - 2011-12-04 17:10:05 UTC
Yosarian wrote:

- Allow the POCO owner to set different tax levels for each tier of product.

Eg: a POCO owner could set a high 'extraction tax' (tier 0-1) whilst having a lower 'processing tax' (tiers 2-4).

- Allow the POCO owner to set different tax levels on different commodities.

Eg: a POCO owner could lower the cost of production of certain commodities (eg needed pos fuels) whilst keeping a higher tax for everything else


In other words... right direction, but more fine-grained control please.


I really think this is an excellent proposal. As for now Players control of the tax volume seems to be limited and is one reason for the confusion.With a yearly adjustment on the taxable market value this would bring a better dynamic in market pricing.

Akane Mishima wrote:

I think POCOs should actually be better than the current concord customs offices, is there any difference between them? If not I'd like there to be some form of upgrade to work towards to make my operations much more convienent and giving the POCOs owner an advantage over other planets.


I agree here, the advantage doing the investment and taking the management effort should not end only by collecting taxes but certifies conjoint with extended variables in taxation compared to the Concord system.
tengen san
Triton-TC
#796 - 2011-12-04 17:15:55 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Elayae wrote:
After a couple of days experimenting with the new PI I have a few concerns about the recording of taxation in the custom offices.

It's not about the height of the tax or anything just that the payments are recorded in the journal with date, time and the planet number. Attention This information can be used to exploit the planetary producers. The pick up times and other activities can be recorded by the receiver and they can set up attacks accordingly by themselves or others.

The new system can be exploited by good organized pilots, so I ask that the planet number may be removed from the journal entry. Perhaps the entry should be removed entirely from the journal.


The planet number is required, because operators need to know which of their POCOs are profitable and which aren't. You could argue about the pilot name, but I can think of as many good uses for that as bad. If the intel it provides becomes a problem, the best solution would be to delay entries as it does with rat bounties, so the time becomes fuzzy.

But really, even if POCOs are not that expensive, people will prefer to get their investment back and not drive away customers. So attacks on the haulers should be rare.


Delay entries could be a way to go, 3- 5 min. should be efficient and effective enough to leave the system. But the issue is conquerable; it would be more time consuming so. Fly in on a save, launch all your goods, (wallet flash, POCO owner) come back later to pick them up, I never have seen anyone patient enough to wait for me longer than 30 min.

You have to get known to the environment you’re in. Doing two Pickup’s in a row (fly in-fly out) is the max before you get attention by randoms.
tengen san
Triton-TC
#797 - 2011-12-04 17:18:39 UTC  |  Edited by: tengen san
Omen there is one issue I would like the PI team to take a look at.

While the Hangars were still existing I could open the hangar window and it stayed open and exported goods showed up in the hangar right after launch.
By now all goods have to be retrieved via the CO/POCO storage, the CO window close once I execute the launch. To retrieve the goods the CO window need to get reopened once again. One extra, not necessarily, rather excessive click with negative time effect in low and 0.0., and sure a nuisance in high sec.
Ang Min
CPD Adventures Pte. Ltd.
#798 - 2011-12-04 17:36:10 UTC
Is it the case that customs offices never drop loot when destroyed? I blew up an Interbus CO on Singularity, after filling it with PI stuff, and it didn't drop anything. I think it should drop at least a portion of its contents, plus maybe some gantry construction components. This would make the hours spent shooting one a little more worthwhile.
tengen san
Triton-TC
#799 - 2011-12-04 18:00:25 UTC
Ang Min wrote:
Is it the case that customs offices never drop loot when destroyed? I blew up an Interbus CO on Singularity, after filling it with PI stuff, and it didn't drop anything. I think it should drop at least a portion of its contents, plus maybe some gantry construction components. This would make the hours spent shooting one a little more worthwhile.



I belive the Idea behind it was exactly not to make it worthwhile, but only for competing reasons.
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#800 - 2011-12-04 20:06:22 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set,

Will the taxes update as the PI market prices change?

Right now people are driving up the PI prices in response to the taxes. If the taxes don't auto update we might have the same absurdly low tax rate as before, but with just a bit higher prices.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544