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@ CCP

I have one question for CCP, please consider it. (and 2 more)
-> Can you decrease a little tax for launching rocket-can (export by launch) in space and it that way give us oportunity to earn a little more for more work that we have to do?


And few more questions:
1.) Money from launching rocket-can export is going to who? POCO owner or tax like before?
I don't see logic that that ISK goes to POCO owner because you launch from your facility and do not use POCO at all.
And it would be better that that tax is like before, because it would be ISK sink.

2.) If POCO owner says that you cant use their POCO, can you use launching rocket-can export?
It would be logic that you can, because you launch from your facility and do not use POCO at all and it would open ninja PI oportunity in low/0.0 sec.

The more I think about it, the more I think the current tax rates are appropriate (despite any speculation price built into the reference values). If anything, they may need to be raised in the future. Let's walk through an example:

Say a p2's equilibrium value is such that with 0% tax rates across the board, an extraction->p2 producer would be willing to sell p2's for 8,000 isk/unit. That's a slightly fictional example -- 8,000 is an arbitrary but realistic number, and 0% is not quite correct but close enough for this example. Then a change is announced (all non-highsec COs being removed, POCOs going in, taxes unchanged). Speculation occurs and the price goes up to 9,000 isk/u. Then another change is announced -- Interbus COs will be put in. This lowers the demand for POCOs, so the price should go down a bit, but the PI market can take many days or sometimes weeks to float down to an equilibrium value after someone has been manipulating upwards and setting a floor. Besides, who's to say the speculators aren't correct, and that the increased usage of the p2 from POCOs and perhaps new T2 items or POS fuel (depending on the p2) wouldn't mean that the 9,000 isk/u would be the new true value?

Then the reference tax value is changed, based on the 9,000 isk/u. If the speculators were wrong, and the true value was still 8,000 isk/u, then the new true value *after the tax change* would be 8,900 isk/u (based on a 10% tax rate), since producers require 8,000 isk/u profit to produce this good. The tax would be 900 isk/u on an item selling around 8,900 isk/u -- just about correct! And if the speculators were RIGHT, then the new true value would be 9,000 isk/u (speculator price) + 900 isk/u (tax) = 9,900 isk/u, which means that the 900 isk/u tax is actually too low, and would not correspond to 10% market value!

You can do examples for p3s, or including the taxes for lower tiers of PI goods, or including POCO tax rate estimates... but you get the idea. The taxes probably should not be lowered at all. A rebalance in 2012 based on market values at that time may end up raising the reference tax values.

Glad you like it.
And i thought... when we have that way of exporting things in game, why the hell not to use it for new mechanic (ninja PI in "hostile" orbits) and ISK sink and maybe some more isk earning oportunity.
All in one. And very little dev time to make it happen.

So please CCP, can we get response here???

To at least partially agree -- I don't really care what the actual tax rates are, so long as I make a reasonable ISK/hr, both for elapsed time and actual time spent doing the work, including hauling and planning.

My concern is with the overall structure, and with the transition.

Doing it this way, based on the most recent speculation on a historical high, is operating completely blind and causes a lot of unnecessary disruption.

There are several structural issues here; I'll just list a few.

• Repeated taxation at each step in the production chain.
• Why is PI taxed and not other extraction or production? I'm not saying it shouldn't be taxed. But if you don't have a very good answer to this, you can't do a very good job of designing and managing it. The best I can offer here for justification is to balance ISK/hr compared to these other activities.
• The relative pricing of the tiers was rather distorted at the particular snapshot in time.
• It's important to establish just how these will be calculated in the future. Markets don't do well when the rules are unknown, or subject to capricious change.

BULL.

Sorry, I don't think this "oops Mister nice-guy here, omg I dropped the ball - my bad!!!' is going to work this time.

So a little 'oopsie' happened and the most vital and controversial piece, of the only already unpopular expansion item, is the one missed. Uh hunh....

Not suspicious AT ALL

I was interrupted and failed to make my biggest structural point -- that of feedback built into the system.

Positive feedback makes for instability. It's especially serious when it is coupled with delay; that is how you get wild oscillations.

The solution is to introduce damping and smoothing (low-pass filtering) into the system.

If you average over a long period, and penalize rapid swings and oscillations in your averaging process, you can get a system behavior that isn't subject to wild behaviors.

The higher the tax rate, the bigger this issue is. This is complicated by the fact we simply do not know what the average tax rate will be. Most of that is now in player hands - and eventually, perhaps their wallets.

But it's not that hard to handle. Just average the price in a way that taxation doesn't amplify the price instability. Any move in the direction 0-tax POCOs will just add additional stability to the system.

Please note that when I say "stable", I don't mean static. The oscillations I'm talking about are an artifact of the system design itself, not player behavior. An unstable system would always result in wild chaotic oscillations. You want instead a market that responds to changing supply and demand and speculation. A market that behaves somewhat rationally.

What we have here is a tax rate that has been driven by a price increase that was driven by speculation on the tax rate. That process shouldn't be allowed to continue unchecked.

i like the changes as a whole and agree that they where needed. However having high taxes basically kills a popular PI setup.

some setups moved resources to the orbit and imported them back to a different place on the planet. This is no longer cost effective and expedited transports work only if there is a link between buildings (AFAIK). So it would be cool if expedited transports could be revisited so we can move stuff on the planet with less costs than import/export. (e.g drop the link restriction)

Huh.. And why are you demolishing the economy with hisec incursions again?

And doing surgery with a meat axe?

Guidance systems sell for *far* below what they cost to make from the underlying P2s or P1s. That's because they were originally an NPC-sold good and people built up huge stockpiles of them. So the 19k price is more a reflection of all of those old GS that were bought from NPCs.

To make GS, under today's P1 prices, in an efficient manner (making the P3 from the P1 to avoid the P2 import/export tariff), you would need to spend about 61k to make them.

((P1a + P1b + P1c + P1d) + (4 * import tariff)) * 80 = input cost
(P3 market value - export tariff) * 3 = output value

Water, Reactive Metals, Chiral, Plasmoids - are the 4 P1s

((382+417+708+541))+(4*25) * 80 = 171840 ISK
(25227 - 7000) * 3 = 54681 ISK
margin = -68%

So Guidance Systems (and other items where large NPC-sold stockpiles still exist from Summer 2010) are bad examples.