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New dev blog: Player Owned Customs Offices: An update!

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ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#521 - 2011-12-01 21:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ZaBob
millsy4606 wrote:
ZaBob wrote:
millsy4606 wrote:
good, leave it as it is! this weekend im smashing pocos and setting up my own, then im gonna flood the market with fuel blocks. Pays to be a pirate in low sec, teach you high sec carebears to actually leave your comfort zone and come play. Isk isnt free and easy and it shouldnt be!

Well done CCP!

high fives all round

o/*\o


Have you tried it yet? Have fun with that. Please come back and let us know how many you manage. And how much fun you found it.

Seriously -- I'm both skeptical AND interested in your experience.



tried which part? fuel block making? or PI?

in PI i run 5 planets all from p1 up to p3, fule blocks not yet, there in the oven for ME, but all parts are in hangar waiting to be made, BP for the poco already have just need to build then make the space (kill dirty interbus ones) good thing about a corp theres people that help attack/defend you didnt think i was gonna do this on my your own did you?


I'm referring to the smashing the Interbus CO's part of your plan.

And I'd like specifically to hear about your experience doing it as a corp.
Damian Leon
Doomheim
#522 - 2011-12-01 21:14:57 UTC
Many of you forget this all more to do with taking isk out of the game to curb inflation, than PI itself. Large alliances are going to cash in the biggest, they will now dominate nearly the entire market. With that said, the flow of isk is going to do two things.. its going to evaporate there will be less isk in the system, people will have less isk to buy plex and ships etc. This will drive the prices for ALL items down, an item is only worth something because someone is there to buy it. If there is less money in the system prices will be sold for alot less. Second the isk is going to be moved from smaller corps and alliances towards the bigger alliances, as large alliances control most the space of nullsec, and they will enviably charge those corps/alliances to use their interbus. As if there wasnt already a problem with large alliances selling isk for real money, i image this will too increase. Also if you consider isk to be a form of power, more isk more supercaps more titans, there will be certainly a land grab, the more space you own the more isk your going to create. This will affect market prices.. large wars and conflicts are going to shut down PI in certain areas. I predict highsec PI will become only profitable by producing raw materials, as the teired products will only be profitable in lowsec nullsec or wormhole space.
Jaggins
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#523 - 2011-12-01 21:19:42 UTC
ZaBob wrote:
Calorn Marthor wrote:

No, the solution for POCOs can only be multiple colonies of different players on the same planet.





If you want more interaction -- make it easier to actually observe!


This is a great suggestion. There should be a show all installations setting with clear visibility.
mkint
#524 - 2011-12-01 21:21:31 UTC
Scarlett Ninja wrote:

Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?

Please could CCP explain to me why you have deliberately stopped me, you fee paying customer with 3 acc, from accessing this game feature in favor of the huge alliances whom i think already have a monopoly of so many resources.

There is no future in EVE for groups smaller than 2,000 people. That is why EVE will die. I don't know if devs are being bribed with RMT, or they are just incredibly myopic. Either way, I'm not sure I've ever been more convinced that EVE online has an expiration date, and that it's closer than anyone suspected.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#525 - 2011-12-01 21:23:25 UTC
Damian Leon wrote:
Many of you forget this all more to do with taking isk out of the game to curb inflation, than PI itself. Large alliances are going to cash in the biggest, they will now dominate nearly the entire market. With that said, the flow of isk is going to do two things.. its going to evaporate there will be less isk in the system, people will have less isk to buy plex and ships etc. This will drive the prices for ALL items down, an item is only worth something because someone is there to buy it. If there is less money in the system prices will be sold for alot less. Second the isk is going to be moved from smaller corps and alliances towards the bigger alliances, as large alliances control most the space of nullsec, and they will enviably charge those corps/alliances to use their interbus. As if there wasnt already a problem with large alliances selling isk for real money, i image this will too increase. Also if you consider isk to be a form of power, more isk more supercaps more titans, there will be certainly a land grab, the more space you own the more isk your going to create. This will affect market prices.. large wars and conflicts are going to shut down PI in certain areas. I predict highsec PI will become only profitable by producing raw materials, as the teired products will only be profitable in lowsec nullsec or wormhole space.


Um, restricting supply and adding costs is going to drive prices down?

Only if it produces a major recession to the point where nobody has ISK to buy things anyway. But then producers stop producing, too. People stopping doing stuff isn't good for the long-term health of the game or the company making it.

But I quite agree this is certainly shifting power and ISK further toward large alliances. I don't see that as healthy. I think they really should have made it easier for individuals and small corps to get into the action. I think it would have made for a much more robust economy. Centralization of power makes for instability.
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#526 - 2011-12-01 21:26:10 UTC
ZaBob wrote:
Damian Leon wrote:
Many of you forget this all more to do with taking isk out of the game to curb inflation, than PI itself. Large alliances are going to cash in the biggest, they will now dominate nearly the entire market. With that said, the flow of isk is going to do two things.. its going to evaporate there will be less isk in the system, people will have less isk to buy plex and ships etc. This will drive the prices for ALL items down, an item is only worth something because someone is there to buy it. If there is less money in the system prices will be sold for alot less. Second the isk is going to be moved from smaller corps and alliances towards the bigger alliances, as large alliances control most the space of nullsec, and they will enviably charge those corps/alliances to use their interbus. As if there wasnt already a problem with large alliances selling isk for real money, i image this will too increase. Also if you consider isk to be a form of power, more isk more supercaps more titans, there will be certainly a land grab, the more space you own the more isk your going to create. This will affect market prices.. large wars and conflicts are going to shut down PI in certain areas. I predict highsec PI will become only profitable by producing raw materials, as the teired products will only be profitable in lowsec nullsec or wormhole space.


Um, restricting supply and adding costs is going to drive prices down?

Only if it produces a major recession to the point where nobody has ISK to buy things anyway. But then producers stop producing, too. People stopping doing stuff isn't good for the long-term health of the game or the company making it.

But I quite agree this is certainly shifting power and ISK further toward large alliances. I don't see that as healthy. I think they really should have made it easier for individuals and small corps to get into the action. I think it would have made for a much more robust economy. Centralization of power makes for instability.


See my post about my main beef with POCOs...
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=448780#post448780

I think that'll get you there ^
millsy4606
State War Academy
Caldari State
#527 - 2011-12-01 21:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: millsy4606
ill fraps it, stick it on you tube
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#528 - 2011-12-01 21:35:03 UTC
mkint wrote:
Scarlett Ninja wrote:

Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?

Please could CCP explain to me why you have deliberately stopped me, you fee paying customer with 3 acc, from accessing this game feature in favor of the huge alliances whom i think already have a monopoly of so many resources.

There is no future in EVE for groups smaller than 2,000 people. That is why EVE will die. I don't know if devs are being bribed with RMT, or they are just incredibly myopic. Either way, I'm not sure I've ever been more convinced that EVE online has an expiration date, and that it's closer than anyone suspected.


I think i speak for us all when i say i can't wait for you to leave.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Tora Oni
Legendary Sidekicks in Space
#529 - 2011-12-01 21:36:18 UTC
How does getting tax up to 17%, people killing the custom office, building poco, setting it to 0% tax help balance the PI ? I probably need the same stuff CCP is smoking. Roll
Madlof Chev
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#530 - 2011-12-01 21:43:52 UTC
WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE. Just deal with your stupid problems and get on with it. Fly some spaceships instead or something, sheesh.
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#531 - 2011-12-01 21:49:48 UTC
Madlof Chev wrote:
WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE. Just deal with your stupid problems and get on with it. Fly some spaceships instead or something, sheesh.



That's just Test Alliance asking us to please ignore that they're being handed all the marbles, right?

Is whining about people whining the only reason you've been reading this thread?
Desparo
Oberon Incorporated
#532 - 2011-12-01 21:50:59 UTC
Okay I think what the problem here is (at least what it is for me) is that you didn't properly communicate the exact changes being made to the taxes.

What you ment to say was that taxes will become a percentage of the value of items being imported and exported.

What you actually said was "CONCORD who will, in turn, charge doubled import and export taxes"

I can understand that this new initiative to communicate more with players takes some practice but you have to realize that the initiative needs to be split into 2 parts.

1) Communicate more.
2) Communicate better and more precisely.

This time you guys didn't follow part 2 all that well.

Bad commincation aside I don't object to the changes themselves. It does make more sense if your trying to get corporations to take over customs offices. And when people pay more in taxes they'll just pass that onto the buyers anyways.
Illectroculus Defined
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#533 - 2011-12-01 22:03:20 UTC
Organic wrote:

There've been lots of comments about "doubling export fees" versus "100x export fees"....in either case, why did CCP let players spend hundreds of hours planning, replanning, reorganizing, reoptimizing their PI operations only to have the high sec operations become mostly useless? Just a few minutes ago, the taxes I paid exporting raw materials just made refining them (or doing anything else with them) a loosing operation.

I'm pounding my head on the desk trying to figure out why I spent so much effort making PI work right (the dammed production line was hard enough to figure out).



So you're actually losing money on your PI now?

Let me guess you were running some factory planet system where you bought materials, shipped them to the planet and then ship the finished product to sell on the market at a profit, and you didn't figure the new tax rates into your calculations. I bet you bought new stuff in the last week, when you could have at least known about the new taxes if you'd been keeping up with the public discourse.

So, you'll be able to produce a pile of planet goo that now costs more than the current market prices. What do you do? You can sell them at a loss, or , you can hold onto them, like a lot of other people. There'll be a bunch of people not selling their stuff at a loss and when supply drops and demand stays the same then prices will rise towards their new equilibrium. I seriously doubt that aliiances will be producing enough high end PI stuff to supply the whole market, so the equilibrium will move to where it's profitable for the hi-sec players.

I on the other hand have been paying a lot of attention and knew when to invest my isk, and II'll be making a very healthy return on my investment. It's how things work in markets, the money doesn't appear magically from anywhere, you get it from other players who are out shooting rats and running missions.
JediRobin
Globaltech Industries
#534 - 2011-12-01 22:04:59 UTC  |  Edited by: JediRobin
I think the new tax rates suck big time.

Bring back the old rate.

What would happen to eve if we all just stop making pi.

Yes the prices will go up, and change the economy.

Maybe we should all do that.

Then we can afford to do pi again.
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#535 - 2011-12-01 22:16:16 UTC
shea ashler wrote:

if i understand this rightly then the tax can only do one thing ant that is incease... because "By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value" when the tax goes up the price on the product goes up.. with this model the tax will then increase again or...?


I have no words...
Dynamix Boon
Light Matter Project Holdings
#536 - 2011-12-01 22:16:23 UTC
While I agree with the spirit of the change, I don't think this change is going to have the effect intended.

I hope the market rebalances to keep small scale high sec PI still worth while. The modest passive income was very welcome. I also think it was a nice way to allow new players to make some pocket money without the mission running grind.

Rather than looking at risk/reward I to tend to look at the opportunity cost of PVP.

When looking at the opportunity cost of doing something in Eve, time is my most important factor. So if I lose a Taranis on a low sec roam with Funky Bacon, the cost is low if I can recover the ISK from the passive income with PI. If margins from PI become so low that I have to mission run (time intensive) to make up the ISK, the opportunity cost becomes much higher, making PVP less desirable. Less PVP is bad. Sad

I still think player owned CO's are a good idea, but I think small scale PI should be viable. I fear this change may make PI only worthwhile for large player organisations with already massive income streams.
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#537 - 2011-12-01 22:18:02 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:


oh the tears, this is so good, please post more



As I said, it's no big deal. You'll have to look somewhere else for tears. Big smile
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#538 - 2011-12-01 22:20:06 UTC
Dynamix Boon wrote:
While I agree with the spirit of the change, I don't think this change is going to have the effect intended.

I hope the market rebalances to keep small scale high sec PI still worth while. The modest passive income was very welcome. I also think it was a nice way to allow new players to make some pocket money without the mission running grind.

Rather than looking at risk/reward I to tend to look at the opportunity cost of PVP.

When looking at the opportunity cost of doing something in Eve, time is my most important factor. So if I lose a Taranis on a low sec roam with Funky Bacon, the cost is low if I can recover the ISK from the passive income with PI. If margins from PI become so low that I have to mission run (time intensive) to make up the ISK, the opportunity cost becomes much higher, making PVP less desirable. Less PVP is bad. Sad

I still think player owned CO's are a good idea, but I think small scale PI should be viable. I fear this change may make PI only worthwhile for large player organisations with already massive income streams.


We're using a tag "/signed for removal" to express a desire to remove POCO's in their current form.
Captain Evenwel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#539 - 2011-12-01 22:20:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Evenwel
So first we're not getting enough information, then it's too ambiguous, now we're to lazy to actually read the forums or use the search option to get an answer? Damn, I don't know how to win this one.

What I am very much curious to hear about is what
Quote:
we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden
is supposed to indicate for the future of planets... :D
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#540 - 2011-12-01 22:27:13 UTC
Captain Evenwel wrote:
So first we're not getting enough information, then it's too ambiguous, now we're to lazy to actually read the forums or use the search option to get an answer? Damn, I don't know how to win this one.

What I am very much curious to hear about is what
Quote:
we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden
is supposed to indicate for the future of planets... :D


Hint: You can't. I've been fighting this implementation since it was announced. At each stage they simply ignore more.