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Science & Industry

 
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Null sec industry changes - has anyone told the alliances?

First post
Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#41 - 2014-04-25 22:41:56 UTC
Please understand that I'm not saying that this is how it should be. I don't think S&I specialists are bad people or anything. I'm just outlining the cold, pragmatic logic behind the current state of affairs.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#42 - 2014-04-26 00:26:31 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Yet one system in highsec can have the equivalent of an entire null regions industrial output even with the 60% slot time bonus.

Except it can't.
The best Systems in High which are truly out of scale have I think it is about 1000 lines? Feel free to correct the actual figure.
A single Outpost can have the equivalent of about 500 lines now. Meaning it takes you a mere 2-4 stations to equal the best high sec systems. And I'm also not against a nerf to those single systems in highsec that are crazy silly. Remember there are high sec systems with 0 stations as well that are fairly common.

You are trying an argument on using badly out of date data that has already been changed by CCP because of the imbalance. If you build an Amarr outpost in every 40th or so system in Null, you end up with the same manufacturing capacity as high sec has overall.

Stop trying to defend an un-defend-able advantage. The rest of the Industry changes are enough to make Null industry worthwhile. The refining chance is exactly what you have complained about being unfair for so long, yet magnitudes larger the other way. The fact that most of the Null Bloc are now defending the change means they are about personal advantage, not game balance and will always lobby for what benefits them at the cost of anyone else.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#43 - 2014-04-26 05:13:10 UTC
There's the tiny matter of the cosy of such stations. Upgrades aren't cheap at all.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#44 - 2014-04-26 05:56:17 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
However, they don't seem to be interested in me, or suddenly stop listening when I mention my deep interest in industry and the other "boring" activities.

I can't lie about it; I'm industry first, but not to the exclusion of combat.

I've had very different experience to you on this count, so I can only assume you've either chosen the wrong groups to join or you interview badly.
Flash Phoenix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2014-04-26 06:21:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Flash Phoenix
Malcanis wrote:
Flash Phoenix wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

But at the moment, I can't see any reason, and that's the reason behind the traditional hostility of 0.0 alliances to "pure" industrialists. They're not just seen as "parasites"; they are parasites because they're intrinsically less capable of contributing to the wealth and survival of the alliance.

The experiment was tried over and over and many different groups and it always ended up the same way.


So then why do you nullie CSMers constantly pound on CCP for null buffs and high sec nerfs to industry when you know damn well you're not going to participate? Just get together and pound on CCP to end high sec, once and for all. You nullies should love that, no? Just biomass those carebear alts you never talk about and train up more peeveepee'ers...


So that we can conduct our industrial activity in our space on equal terms to the hi-sec industrialists. Is that so had to understand?

After all, why should we be forced to operate those alts in hi-sec as we are at present?





Why does null sec need to produce same items or compete with high sec? There should be items to make and industry functions in null sec that can only be done in null sec, with high risk and high profit. Perhaps with PvP content in it. So instead of wanting to take high sec to null sec, how about using your CSM position to get some game content for null sec instead of just adjusting what already works fine in general.


So you'd be in favour of for ex: T2 ships and items can only be constructed in 0.0?

I argued pretty strongly against that, because I don't like arbitrary restrictions on principle, but if you have another viewpoint, I'd be interested.



Yes.
I was aiming more at new content created, probably not a reasonable thought with the way CCP is going at this time. If some special hi sec content such as faction items which BPC are usually found in low or null, then production could to be moved to low or null. Thus a high profit item would be obtained and made out of hi sec. Problem is that there is not much that a small group or those with low skills or modest isk can do in Null that cannot be done better in High sec. A noob can pvp in null. May not be good at it, but they can get in on the action. Currently there is little need for manufacture or industrial play style in null. Game could use such content, its a shame that you either PvP or basically stay out of null. Plenty of content could be created from such action in null, PvP post on lack of good fights in null seem to be common. Why not add some content that gives both play styles some action in null ?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#46 - 2014-04-26 06:38:09 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Essentially you're trying to get into the marines on the basis of your bed-making and latrine digging skills and expecting those to be enough to excuse you from fighting, even though all the marines already in service can make their own bad and dig a latrine already.

I think you missed the part about my interest in getting involved in PvP.

That sort of proves my point.
Maya Bewell
MorningStar Technology
#47 - 2014-04-26 07:10:38 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
So the question remains: why "waste" scarce facilities on people who only want to extract money from your PvPers, when you can let the PvPers use those same facilities?

I take that as a rhetorical question.

Let me describe my situation. I really enjoy industry. Even the "boring" mining, hauling, and fiddling with spreadsheets. I'd like to join a nulsec PvP alliance, join fleets and go on combat roams looking for trouble; I'm interested in the roles of Logi and heavy tackle (I can pilot anything though, aside from titans and transports). I'd also like to help with keeping local markets stocked, moving people's stuff, keeping towers and bridges fueled, etc. I lived in w-space for ~2.75 years, so I don't expect to need much hand-holding out in nulsec.

However, they don't seem to be interested in me, or suddenly stop listening when I mention my deep interest in industry and the other "boring" activities.

I can't lie about it; I'm industry first, but not to the exclusion of combat. I've also long been an advocate for industrialists to have at least basic combat skills for PvP.


This ↑↑

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#48 - 2014-04-26 09:27:16 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
There's the tiny matter of the cosy of such stations. Upgrades aren't cheap at all.

Upgrades are a capital cost, which require no special maintenance, regardless of what kind of tax lawyer evasion some people try to use to pretend they have upkeep.

Null gains significant advantages on those outposts. Faster lines, sounds like cheaper lines as well with the coming updates, it's all getting moved around so hard to list all the specifics now of course. But there is nothing wrong with certain aspects simply being equal. The overall effect is still greater for Null. And equal refining avoids one area of space being able to automatically win a price war in the other area of space. Local production using locally sourced resources should be the cheaper option. Highsec should not be able to be outpriced by imported goods. And Null should also find local goods cheaper.

Providing players sort that, rather than the current meta where null double handles everything for industry then pretends JF costs are compulsory to get minerals.

Though on the whole, the changes are good. Just the refining change creates a massive inequality.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-04-26 12:26:34 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Essentially you're trying to get into the marines on the basis of your bed-making and latrine digging skills and expecting those to be enough to excuse you from fighting, even though all the marines already in service can make their own bad and dig a latrine already.

I think you missed the part about my interest in getting involved in PvP.

That sort of proves my point.



And why did he miss it? You mostly talked about your indu skills. Next time, try talking about your Pvp interest.
Flex Carter
Caldari Independant Mining Association
#50 - 2014-04-26 13:50:00 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Essentially you're trying to get into the marines on the basis of your bed-making and latrine digging skills and expecting those to be enough to excuse you from fighting, even though all the marines already in service can make their own bad and dig a latrine already.

I think you missed the part about my interest in getting involved in PvP.

That sort of proves my point.



And why did he miss it? You mostly talked about your indu skills. Next time, try talking about your Pvp interest.


Tau Cabalander wrote:
Quote:
I'd like to join a nulsec PvP alliance, join fleets and go on combat roams looking for trouble; I'm interested in the roles of Logi and heavy tackle (I can pilot anything though, aside from titans and transports).


However, they don't seem to be interested in me, or suddenly stop listening when I mention my deep interest in industry and the other "boring" activities.


He did.... But the only thing you guys actually read was the words dealing with industry... Go figure.Roll
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#51 - 2014-04-26 14:40:36 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Essentially you're trying to get into the marines on the basis of your bed-making and latrine digging skills and expecting those to be enough to excuse you from fighting, even though all the marines already in service can make their own bad and dig a latrine already.

I think you missed the part about my interest in getting involved in PvP.

That sort of proves my point.


Did I miss that? Then I apologise; I was pretty tired yesterday.

If you're genuinely looking to pvp and you want to join an EU TZ alliance whose individual members already conduct significant industrial operations, then put an app in to VANIS.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#52 - 2014-04-26 14:43:01 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
There's the tiny matter of the cosy of such stations. Upgrades aren't cheap at all.

Upgrades are a capital cost, which require no special maintenance, regardless of what kind of tax lawyer evasion some people try to use to pretend they have upkeep.

Null gains significant advantages on those outposts. Faster lines, sounds like cheaper lines as well with the coming updates, it's all getting moved around so hard to list all the specifics now of course. But there is nothing wrong with certain aspects simply being equal. The overall effect is still greater for Null. And equal refining avoids one area of space being able to automatically win a price war in the other area of space. Local production using locally sourced resources should be the cheaper option. Highsec should not be able to be outpriced by imported goods. And Null should also find local goods cheaper.

Providing players sort that, rather than the current meta where null double handles everything for industry then pretends JF costs are compulsory to get minerals.

Though on the whole, the changes are good. Just the refining change creates a massive inequality.


Uh, you realise sov bills are a thing, right?

Anyway serious, a fully upgraded Amarr station costs a lot. Even as a "capital cost" that's a lot of ISK, when empire stations are provided literally for free.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#53 - 2014-04-26 19:31:17 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I think you missed the part about my interest in getting involved in PvP.

That sort of proves my point.

Did I miss that? Then I apologise; I was pretty tired yesterday.

This thread is proving to be a microcosm of what I've experienced though.

Malcanis wrote:
If you're genuinely looking to pvp and you want to join an EU TZ alliance whose individual members already conduct significant industrial operations, then put an app in to VANIS.

I'm in the US TZ, though you wouldn't know it by my activity which tends to be mostly US West, and all the way into AUS because 4 hours sleep is enough for anyone... might explain the narcolepsy though, j / k. I also predominantly work 4 day weeks because of way too much accumulated vacation time (a decade's worth), and I have no life outside of EVE.

... but enough about me. Back to the topic.

Those corps that are more accepting of combat-willing industrialists, for lack of a better term, could benefit from advertising their existing industry side as much as their PvP side. The only group that immediately springs to mind is BOVRL, for instance, known as the "blood miners".

The term "Industrialist" is all too often equated with "Carebear" as a derogatory label. There are indeed plenty of those participating in industry that I wouldn't label as industrialists. Despite what anybody may state to the contrary, I don't agree that one can be AFK and still call themselves an industrialist. It will likely take years and many industry patches, if ever, for industrialists to shed the negative image.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2014-04-26 21:21:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
You know I hear a lot of whining from both sides of this debate but ultimately I don't think it's going to change much. I think Jita prices are going to go up ...and you know what, null sec is going to pay those prices.. because they don't want to spend time developing their own industrial teams to support their little combat PVP hobby - it's too risky, too costly, too logistic heavy, too time consuming, and too boring for them.

Don't believe me? just watch.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#55 - 2014-04-27 00:15:35 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
You know I hear a lot of whining from both sides of this debate but ultimately I don't think it's going to change much. I think Jita prices are going to go up ...and you know what, null sec is going to pay those prices.. because they don't want to spend time developing their own industrial teams to support their little combat PVP hobby - it's too risky, too costly, too logistic heavy, too time consuming, and too boring for them.

Don't believe me? just watch.


How many times must people like you be told that vast amounts of industry are conducted by nullsec players - with their hisec alts - before it sinks in?

Give me a ballpark number here: I'm prepared to do as much CTRL-Ving as it takes.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#56 - 2014-04-27 00:20:14 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I think you missed the part about my interest in getting involved in PvP.

That sort of proves my point.

Did I miss that? Then I apologise; I was pretty tired yesterday.

This thread is proving to be a microcosm of what I've experienced though.

Malcanis wrote:
If you're genuinely looking to pvp and you want to join an EU TZ alliance whose individual members already conduct significant industrial operations, then put an app in to VANIS.

I'm in the US TZ, though you wouldn't know it by my activity which tends to be mostly US West, and all the way into AUS because 4 hours sleep is enough for anyone... might explain the narcolepsy though, j / k. I also predominantly work 4 day weeks because of way too much accumulated vacation time (a decade's worth), and I have no life outside of EVE.

... but enough about me. Back to the topic.

Those corps that are more accepting of combat-willing industrialists, for lack of a better term, could benefit from advertising their existing industry side as much as their PvP side. The only group that immediately springs to mind is BOVRL, for instance, known as the "blood miners".

The term "Industrialist" is all too often equated with "Carebear" as a derogatory label. There are indeed plenty of those participating in industry that I wouldn't label as industrialists. Despite what anybody may state to the contrary, I don't agree that one can be AFK and still call themselves an industrialist. It will likely take years and many industry patches, if ever, for industrialists to shed the negative image.



Advertisments like that are the kiss of death. No (non rental) alliance in 0.0 can afford to be anything other than focused on PvP as an organisation.

The industry referred to is overwhelmingly conducted by individual members as private ventures. With the exception of supercaps building and I guess some capital replacement programs, that industry currently isn't conducted to support the alliance; it's done as a means of income like ratting or mining or whatever else.

So some individual alliance members are "industry" guys, but virtually no landholding alliances are. You see the difference?

I strongly hope that the changes CCP intend to introduce will start to change that. Certainly the potential is there. We'll see.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2014-04-27 02:09:55 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
You know I hear a lot of whining from both sides of this debate but ultimately I don't think it's going to change much. I think Jita prices are going to go up ...and you know what, null sec is going to pay those prices.. because they don't want to spend time developing their own industrial teams to support their little combat PVP hobby - it's too risky, too costly, too logistic heavy, too time consuming, and too boring for them.

Don't believe me? just watch.


How many times must people like you be told that vast amounts of industry are conducted by nullsec players - with their hisec alts - before it sinks in?

Give me a ballpark number here: I'm prepared to do as much CTRL-Ving as it takes.

ooh ohh tell me again..... I already know this. Still it's not going to change things much which was my point.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2014-04-27 02:54:27 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
There's the tiny matter of the cosy of such stations. Upgrades aren't cheap at all.

Upgrades are a capital cost, which require no special maintenance, regardless of what kind of tax lawyer evasion some people try to use to pretend they have upkeep.

Null gains significant advantages on those outposts. Faster lines, sounds like cheaper lines as well with the coming updates, it's all getting moved around so hard to list all the specifics now of course. But there is nothing wrong with certain aspects simply being equal. The overall effect is still greater for Null. And equal refining avoids one area of space being able to automatically win a price war in the other area of space. Local production using locally sourced resources should be the cheaper option. Highsec should not be able to be outpriced by imported goods. And Null should also find local goods cheaper.

Providing players sort that, rather than the current meta where null double handles everything for industry then pretends JF costs are compulsory to get minerals.

Though on the whole, the changes are good. Just the refining change creates a massive inequality.


I just want to point out that the assumptions about double-handling are false. Nullsec alliances or individual nullsec cap builders make arrangements to buy locally sourced minerals and low-meta modules for refining. They still need to import on an enormous scale because nullsec mining doesn't produce enough to meet their demands, particularly in the lowends.

A large reason for that is that mining isn't a good form of income in nullsec. The presence of hostiles means you can't just park your appropriate-tanked barge in a belt and tab out for 20 minutes, so now you're spending at least a reasonable amount of attention on something that doesn't make as much money as other activities that require effort. The effort factor is compounded by the fact that moving large volumes of low-value goods in Nullsec is a nontrivial affair. Just as your Mackinaw can't AFK like it does in a 0.7 belt, you can't then stuff an Obelisk full of lowends and autopilot it to the largest market in the game.

Compare that to something like Drone Ratting. A Vexor Navy Issue takes minimal skills, is reasonably hard to gank with a decent safety fit, and costs less than an Exhumer if it does get killed. It takes the same amount of effort (engage activity, keep an eye on local/intel) for a significantly higher payout and all the money just lands in my pocket every 20 minutes instead of having to be moved around and fiddled with and sold.

If you wanted to say that Drone Ratting is a bad gameplay system, I would agree with you, but even if mining itself were a reasonable source of income Nullsec would still rely on imports for lowends since, on an individual level, there's no reason for a miner to mine anything but the most valuable ore/ore anomalies available to him.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#59 - 2014-04-27 06:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Malcanis wrote:
The industry referred to is overwhelmingly conducted by individual members as private ventures. With the exception of supercaps building and I guess some capital replacement programs, that industry currently isn't conducted to support the alliance; it's done as a means of income like ratting or mining or whatever else.

So some individual alliance members are "industry" guys, but virtually no landholding alliances are. You see the difference?

It is unfortunate that EVE has this PvP and industry dichotomy, because as you put it there isn't any reliance on industry.

I'd probably rent a system, or join a renter corp, if the current landlords didn't hold all renters with such utter contempt. They are even made to wear badges of disgrace in some cases: B0T, PBLRD.

Malcanis wrote:
Please understand that I'm not saying that this is how it should be. I don't think S&I specialists are bad people or anything. I'm just outlining the cold, pragmatic logic behind the current state of affairs.

You've made it clear that there really isn't a need for nulsec-based industrialists. It isn't surprising that so many remain in hisec.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#60 - 2014-04-27 10:15:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Malcanis wrote:


Uh, you realise sov bills are a thing, right?

Anyway serious, a fully upgraded Amarr station costs a lot. Even as a "capital cost" that's a lot of ISK, when empire stations are provided literally for free.

Sov Bills are for the TCU & IHub.
There is not a single bill for an outpost.

Even if you tax lawyer and pretend there is some 'percentage' you can assign, that then correlates directly into a matching discount on your TCU & IHub, so it still costs zero of your sov bill.

As to Capital cost, yes it is a fair bit. On alliance levels it certainly isn't 'a lot' though. And if you consider that you get a 60% time discount when fully upgraded on certain items that extra monthly profit will pay itself off fairly fast. After which you gain pure profit. At a risk, so I have no issues with that provided it is because of volume.

The issue is with the ability to win any price war if null cares to. It's simply a potentially game breaking advantage, and it won't be blatantly visible if it will break the game till too late. Profit because of magical discount or magical boosted production of minerals quite simply isn't defendable.