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Null sec industry changes - has anyone told the alliances?

First post
Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#21 - 2014-04-24 19:07:29 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
Malcanis said it perfectly. Industry dosen't even require a second account, you just throw some plex(es) at dual char training (depending on what you want to do in industry) and you're set.

Industry is all about clicfest and logistics, and nothing else. No skill, no presence needed, just having the goods and doing clicks. You spend more time on spreadsheet than in game.

The industry buff for null sec is NOT to make alliance hire pure industrialists. It's to end the whole "we are living in null but buy everything from jita because it's cheaper" nonsense.


You will need people to mine the minerals to fund that supply line you realise?


Yes indeed. The very first, most essential step to low end minerals being mined in 0.0 is consistent local demand.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Tarikla
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-04-24 19:12:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarikla
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
Malcanis said it perfectly. Industry dosen't even require a second account, you just throw some plex(es) at dual char training (depending on what you want to do in industry) and you're set.

Industry is all about clicfest and logistics, and nothing else. No skill, no presence needed, just having the goods and doing clicks. You spend more time on spreadsheet than in game.

The industry buff for null sec is NOT to make alliance hire pure industrialists. It's to end the whole "we are living in null but buy everything from jita because it's cheaper" nonsense.


You will need people to mine the minerals to fund that supply line you realise?


Get compressed ore from jita/Get ore from jita and compress them yourself

Haul those ore in Null, reprocess them in Minmatar outpost, do industry in null.

Mining in High-Sec is actually now more profitable than to mine in null sec when you factor everything in the equation, from hauling issues, need for escort, neutral interference, etc. The only miners in null sec are the ones who keeps those few systems with high industry index.

Yeah, Null-sec also need a buff for mining. But it's already better if the situation shift from "do everything in High and haul it in null" to "Get ore in High and do everything else in null"

Disclaimer : I'm not a nullbear, i've never been in a null alliance to be honest. But i think outpost who cost dozens of billions of ISK should have an advantage over free to dock stations.
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#23 - 2014-04-24 19:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rapscallion Jones
It seems to me that CCP does not understand the central reason Indy corps remain in high sec. Where are the markets for goods in null sec? They don't exist and never will.

The reality is industry will always reside in high sec because of logistics and markets. No carrot is ever going to make industrialists move to null and no stick is big enough to drive them away from easy access to their customers.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#24 - 2014-04-24 19:29:00 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
The industry buff for null sec is NOT to make alliance hire pure industrialists. It's to end the whole "we are living in null but buy everything from jita because it's cheaper" nonsense.


You will need people to mine the minerals to fund that supply line you realise?

Minerals, even large volumes of minerals, can be moved. The current compression situation proves that. The future compression situation will not remove that. The ore can come from anywhere.

The value of 0.0 ore is the ability to support rental arrangements and "pets". This is where the industrial specialists belong and this is where the summer changes will incentivise them to be.

Part time industrialists will be welcomed in PvP alliances, as always.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#25 - 2014-04-24 19:42:03 UTC
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
It seems to me that CCP does not understand the central reason Indy corps remain in high sec.

I don't think CCP is trying to move industrial corps in to 0.0. I think they are trying to move some portion of the industrial activity in to 0.0.

That industrial activity may well be performed by the same people that are already living in 0.0. It doesn't need to come from the current hi-sec population, who will still have plenty of reasons to stay in hi-sec.

It's not a matter of taking away a player's current playstyle and forcing them in to a new one. It's about providing all players with many worthwhile options and letting them find what works for them.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2014-04-24 20:34:21 UTC
you only need industrial corps once you run out of pvpers who do industry as a hobby in pvp corps

we'll see if we ever hit that point

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-04-24 22:12:10 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
Malcanis said it perfectly. Industry dosen't even require a second account, you just throw some plex(es) at dual char training (depending on what you want to do in industry) and you're set.

Industry is all about clicfest and logistics, and nothing else. No skill, no presence needed, just having the goods and doing clicks. You spend more time on spreadsheet than in game.

The industry buff for null sec is NOT to make alliance hire pure industrialists. It's to end the whole "we are living in null but buy everything from jita because it's cheaper" nonsense.


You will need people to mine the minerals to fund that supply line you realise?

this will be next part of buffing 0.0 sec 'industry' - removing of mining....
i predict some kind of 'moon mining' with minerals as result

Once it is done 0.0 sec alliances can fully dedicate themself to PvP using their alts to do 'industry'.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Ginger Barbarella
#28 - 2014-04-24 22:22:08 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

this will be next part of buffing 0.0 sec 'industry' - removing of mining....
i predict some kind of 'moon mining' with minerals as result

Once it is done 0.0 sec alliances can fully dedicate themself to PvP using their alts to do 'industry'.


I predict a CCP program to "deliver" all needed minerals to any large alliance asking for them by Jove transport with fair market value automatically withdrawn from Alliance coffers monthly.

Which Alliances will then transport to high sec for quick sale in Jita.

Fair is fair, ya know... Elite peeveepee'ers can't be troubled with Industry.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#29 - 2014-04-25 06:55:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


So that we can conduct our industrial activity in our space on equal terms to the hi-sec industrialists. Is that so had to understand?

After all, why should we be forced to operate those alts in hi-sec as we are at present?

The issue is that certain Null Sec blocs are pounding for far more than 'equal' terms.
To list current situation.
Refining - Currently Poor. At max skills, 2% disadvantage, but High Sec doesn't need max skills.
Manufacturing - Pretty good per last buff. Can get hundreds of lines with 60% time discount on them in a single outpost.
Mining - Vastly better. Can have Rorq buffs if wanted, more high quality (Dense) ore. Infinite ore in a single system due to Grav anomalies. All types of ore. High Sec must import high ends.
Research. - Again pretty good per last buff, though I believe High sec has a slight edge here, but Null also leverage's a lot of those high sec research slots anyway.
POS - Fuel discount so all POS activities are cheaper.
T2 - Local Moon Goo productions. Vastly higher PI production.

The current player Meta causes a lot of that stuff to get double handled, exported straight to Jita, then Null producers have to import it back from Jita, but that is player meta, not a forced game mechanic.

So out of that list, Null certainly needs equal refining. But instead it has gone something like 900% in the opposite direction to an 18% advantage on refining, while having better (& infinite) ore & faster mining from superior boosts to start with which is already an advantage.
If the current 2% disadvantage at max skills Null has is too much for them to complete using local production, the 18% the other way is vast amounts more, therefore even more unfair.
Null having some more research capability, meh, no big deal either way really. Invention I don't do enough of to know how common slots are, but I know I normally see empty invention slots.

It's entirely fair that High Sec need to bother with good refining skills, that bit I'm totally on board with. But Null does not need the improved refine rates above high. People have already presented maths showing it will be profitable to export compressed ore to null, refine it and jump it back to high sec compared to refining in high. That's just silly. There is no way high sec can compete with that kind of price imbalance, and you would be screaming outright murder if the advantage was the other way around.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-04-25 08:04:31 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
... its the lack of interest from alliances in industry corps beyond supercap builders...

...will we see a change in attitudes?...
With moons and renting, as well as easy access to manufactured goods in Highsec; there really doesn't seem to be need for Alliances to have Industrial Corps.

It would take some major changes in the sand box to alter that.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#31 - 2014-04-25 16:36:46 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
Malcanis said it perfectly. Industry dosen't even require a second account, you just throw some plex(es) at dual char training (depending on what you want to do in industry) and you're set.

Industry is all about clicfest and logistics, and nothing else. No skill, no presence needed, just having the goods and doing clicks. You spend more time on spreadsheet than in game.

The industry buff for null sec is NOT to make alliance hire pure industrialists. It's to end the whole "we are living in null but buy everything from jita because it's cheaper" nonsense.


You will need people to mine the minerals to fund that supply line you realise?

this will be next part of buffing 0.0 sec 'industry' - removing of mining....
i predict some kind of 'moon mining' with minerals as result

Once it is done 0.0 sec alliances can fully dedicate themself to PvP using their alts to do 'industry'.



So the question remains: why "waste" scarce facilities on people who only want to extract money from your PvPers, when you can let the PvPers use those same facilities?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-04-25 16:52:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Falin Whalen
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
The issue is that certain Null Sec blocs are pounding for far more than 'equal' terms.
To list current situation.
Refining - Currently Poor. At max skills, 2% disadvantage, but High Sec doesn't need max skills.
Manufacturing - Pretty good per last buff. Can get hundreds of lines with 60% time discount on them in a single outpost.
Yet one system in highsec can have the equivalent of an entire null regions industrial output even with the 60% slot time bonus.
Quote:
Mining - Vastly better. Can have Rorq buffs if wanted, more high quality (Dense) ore. Infinite ore in a single system due to Grav anomalies. All types of ore. High Sec must import high ends.
yet those sites are very low end poor and would have to mine an ore anomaly out compleatly ~20 times to get the required amount of lowends to build 100 battleships. We will still have to import metric tonnes of lowend minerals/compressed ore.
Quote:
Research. - Again pretty good per last buff, though I believe High sec has a slight edge here, but Null also leverage's a lot of those high sec research slots anyway.
POS - Fuel discount so all POS activities are cheaper.
T2 - Local Moon Goo productions. Vastly higher PI production.
Since it is easier and safer to produce in higsec most of that gets shipped to highsec and is used to manufacture in higsec.

Quote:
The current player Meta causes a lot of that stuff to get double handled, exported straight to Jita, then Null producers have to import it back from Jita, but that is player meta, not a forced game mechanic.
Since it is easier, and safer, to move around and produce in highsec, why wouldn't we?

Quote:
So out of that list, Null certainly needs equal refining. But instead it has gone something like 900% in the opposite direction to an 18% advantage on refining, while having better (& infinite) ore & faster mining from superior boosts to start with which is already an advantage.
If the current 2% disadvantage at max skills Null has is too much for them to complete using local production, the 18% the other way is vast amounts more, therefore even more unfair.
Null having some more research capability, meh, no big deal either way really. Invention I don't do enough of to know how common slots are, but I know I normally see empty invention slots.

It's entirely fair that High Sec need to bother with good refining skills, that bit I'm totally on board with. But Null does not need the improved refine rates above high. People have already presented maths showing it will be profitable to export compressed ore to null, refine it and jump it back to high sec compared to refining in high. That's just silly. There is no way high sec can compete with that kind of price imbalance, and you would be screaming outright murder if the advantage was the other way around.

When you fought for your manufacturing and refining advantages, that can be taken away from you, then we can talk about "fair". Meanwhile my higsec industry alt still gets perfect refines and unlimited free/as close to free manufacturing close to trade hubs with little hastle from any neutral/hostiles because I don't overload my freighter with ISK, all in the perfect un-wardecable safety of a NPC corp.

After this change, I might think about transferring him onto my main account and bundling him up to null.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#33 - 2014-04-25 17:14:03 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
So the question remains: why "waste" scarce facilities on people who only want to extract money from your PvPers, when you can let the PvPers use those same facilities?

I take that as a rhetorical question.

Let me describe my situation. I really enjoy industry. Even the "boring" mining, hauling, and fiddling with spreadsheets. I'd like to join a nulsec PvP alliance, join fleets and go on combat roams looking for trouble; I'm interested in the roles of Logi and heavy tackle (I can pilot anything though, aside from titans and transports). I'd also like to help with keeping local markets stocked, moving people's stuff, keeping towers and bridges fueled, etc. I lived in w-space for ~2.75 years, so I don't expect to need much hand-holding out in nulsec.

However, they don't seem to be interested in me, or suddenly stop listening when I mention my deep interest in industry and the other "boring" activities.

I can't lie about it; I'm industry first, but not to the exclusion of combat. I've also long been an advocate for industrialists to have at least basic combat skills for PvP.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-04-25 17:53:00 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
So the question remains: why "waste" scarce facilities on people who only want to extract money from your PvPers, when you can let the PvPers use those same facilities?
I take that as a rhetorical question.

Let me describe my situation. I really enjoy industry. Even the "boring" mining, hauling, and fiddling with spreadsheets. I'd like to join a nulsec PvP alliance, join fleets and go on combat roams looking for trouble; I'm interested in the roles of Logi and heavy tackle (I can pilot anything though, aside from titans and transports). I'd also like to help with keeping local markets stocked, moving people's stuff, keeping towers and bridges fueled, etc. I lived in w-space for ~2.75 years, so I don't expect to need much hand-holding out in nulsec.

However, they don't seem to be interested in me, or suddenly stop listening when I mention my deep interest in industry and the other "boring" activities.

I can't lie about it; I'm industry first, but not to the exclusion of combat. I've also long been an advocate for industrialists to have at least basic combat skills for PvP.

This is a crying shame, because you are the kind of people we want out in 0.0. I'm sorry that you applied to dumb alliances, because you would fit right in with Theta squad.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

stoicfaux
#35 - 2014-04-25 18:22:18 UTC
If you want industry to actually occur in null, then severely degrade the logistics links between high-sec and null-sec.

/actual_implementation_is_left_as_an_exercise_for_the_reader

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Flash Phoenix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-04-25 20:24:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

But at the moment, I can't see any reason, and that's the reason behind the traditional hostility of 0.0 alliances to "pure" industrialists. They're not just seen as "parasites"; they are parasites because they're intrinsically less capable of contributing to the wealth and survival of the alliance.

The experiment was tried over and over and many different groups and it always ended up the same way.


So then why do you nullie CSMers constantly pound on CCP for null buffs and high sec nerfs to industry when you know damn well you're not going to participate? Just get together and pound on CCP to end high sec, once and for all. You nullies should love that, no? Just biomass those carebear alts you never talk about and train up more peeveepee'ers...


So that we can conduct our industrial activity in our space on equal terms to the hi-sec industrialists. Is that so had to understand?

After all, why should we be forced to operate those alts in hi-sec as we are at present?





Why does null sec need to produce same items or compete with high sec? There should be items to make and industry functions in null sec that can only be done in null sec, with high risk and high profit. Perhaps with PvP content in it. So instead of wanting to take high sec to null sec, how about using your CSM position to get some game content for null sec instead of just adjusting what already works fine in general.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#37 - 2014-04-25 20:57:04 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
So the question remains: why "waste" scarce facilities on people who only want to extract money from your PvPers, when you can let the PvPers use those same facilities?

I take that as a rhetorical question.

Let me describe my situation. I really enjoy industry. Even the "boring" mining, hauling, and fiddling with spreadsheets. I'd like to join a nulsec PvP alliance, join fleets and go on combat roams looking for trouble; I'm interested in the roles of Logi and heavy tackle (I can pilot anything though, aside from titans and transports). I'd also like to help with keeping local markets stocked, moving people's stuff, keeping towers and bridges fueled, etc. I lived in w-space for ~2.75 years, so I don't expect to need much hand-holding out in nulsec.

However, they don't seem to be interested in me, or suddenly stop listening when I mention my deep interest in industry and the other "boring" activities.

I can't lie about it; I'm industry first, but not to the exclusion of combat. I've also long been an advocate for industrialists to have at least basic combat skills for PvP.

Cap ship building and you can find a place in nullsec easy.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Perkin Warbeck
Higher Than Everest
#38 - 2014-04-25 22:06:17 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
So the question remains: why "waste" scarce facilities on people who only want to extract money from your PvPers, when you can let the PvPers use those same facilities?
I take that as a rhetorical question.

Let me describe my situation. I really enjoy industry. Even the "boring" mining, hauling, and fiddling with spreadsheets. I'd like to join a nulsec PvP alliance, join fleets and go on combat roams looking for trouble; I'm interested in the roles of Logi and heavy tackle (I can pilot anything though, aside from titans and transports). I'd also like to help with keeping local markets stocked, moving people's stuff, keeping towers and bridges fueled, etc. I lived in w-space for ~2.75 years, so I don't expect to need much hand-holding out in nulsec.

However, they don't seem to be interested in me, or suddenly stop listening when I mention my deep interest in industry and the other "boring" activities.

I can't lie about it; I'm industry first, but not to the exclusion of combat. I've also long been an advocate for industrialists to have at least basic combat skills for PvP.

This is a crying shame, because you are the kind of people we want out in 0.0. I'm sorry that you applied to dumb alliances, because you would fit right in with Theta squad.


It seems that lot of the angst over the place of null sec industrialists is a cultural issue as well. Many have made the point that industry corps need protecting in null but the two are not mutually exclusive. I have an industry alt in my corp that I have trained into Logi and PvP but there does seem to be an attitude that 'never the twain shall meet'. There is too much leet PvP posturing from guys with secret high sec industry alts and too much hand wringing from industrialists who may need to jump into an inty every now and then.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#39 - 2014-04-25 22:34:35 UTC
Flash Phoenix wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

But at the moment, I can't see any reason, and that's the reason behind the traditional hostility of 0.0 alliances to "pure" industrialists. They're not just seen as "parasites"; they are parasites because they're intrinsically less capable of contributing to the wealth and survival of the alliance.

The experiment was tried over and over and many different groups and it always ended up the same way.


So then why do you nullie CSMers constantly pound on CCP for null buffs and high sec nerfs to industry when you know damn well you're not going to participate? Just get together and pound on CCP to end high sec, once and for all. You nullies should love that, no? Just biomass those carebear alts you never talk about and train up more peeveepee'ers...


So that we can conduct our industrial activity in our space on equal terms to the hi-sec industrialists. Is that so had to understand?

After all, why should we be forced to operate those alts in hi-sec as we are at present?





Why does null sec need to produce same items or compete with high sec? There should be items to make and industry functions in null sec that can only be done in null sec, with high risk and high profit. Perhaps with PvP content in it. So instead of wanting to take high sec to null sec, how about using your CSM position to get some game content for null sec instead of just adjusting what already works fine in general.


So you'd be in favour of for ex: T2 ships and items can only be constructed in 0.0?

I argued pretty strongly against that, because I don't like arbitrary restrictions on principle, but if you have another viewpoint, I'd be interested.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#40 - 2014-04-25 22:40:18 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
So the question remains: why "waste" scarce facilities on people who only want to extract money from your PvPers, when you can let the PvPers use those same facilities?

I take that as a rhetorical question.

Let me describe my situation. I really enjoy industry. Even the "boring" mining, hauling, and fiddling with spreadsheets. I'd like to join a nulsec PvP alliance, join fleets and go on combat roams looking for trouble; I'm interested in the roles of Logi and heavy tackle (I can pilot anything though, aside from titans and transports). I'd also like to help with keeping local markets stocked, moving people's stuff, keeping towers and bridges fueled, etc. I lived in w-space for ~2.75 years, so I don't expect to need much hand-holding out in nulsec.

However, they don't seem to be interested in me, or suddenly stop listening when I mention my deep interest in industry and the other "boring" activities.

I can't lie about it; I'm industry first, but not to the exclusion of combat. I've also long been an advocate for industrialists to have at least basic combat skills for PvP.


It's not a rhetorical question. It's a highly practical question, because all the alliances that tried to do it failed utterly.

The activities you describe can be adequately done in the spare time of a small fraction of the existing membership of any well run alliance. Whilst manufacturing and logistics needs a fair number of characters, it really doesn't need very many players. This is because there's almost no player skill involved, and the ratio of attention to action is incredibly low (ie: even with the current horribad UI it only takes a minute or two to set up a job that can last many hours or days or even weeks)

What you do may well interest you personally, but the quanta of attention it requires to operate that function simply aren't enough to make your expertise scarce or valuable.

Essentially you're trying to get into the marines on the basis of your bed-making and latrine digging skills and expecting those to be enough to excuse you from fighting, even though all the marines already in service can make their own bad and dig a latrine already.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016