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Question on Eve pilot mindset

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Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#21 - 2014-04-24 06:38:21 UTC
Oh yes, I hate industrialists.

I wake up and I hate them.
I drink my coffee to fuel my hate.
I scheduled 5 minute breaks every hour so I could hate them even when I work.
In evenings I talk to my wife about level of hate I feel toward industrialists.
When we have sex she talks about minerals and reactions and invention because when I am hateful I am more passionate.
I fall asleep still hating them.

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Mythrandier
Solace Corp
#22 - 2014-04-24 06:55:43 UTC

Semantics dear boy.

Nobody sensible hates industrialists, they are as much a part of PvP as the people who fly their products until they assplode.

Carebears on the other hand are a blight on this otherwise great game, they demand that the game is changed for their own personal benefit, an industrialist will use the tools available to him to over come problems not whine at CCP to change the game.

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -  D. Adams.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-04-24 07:27:48 UTC
Marco Algaert wrote:
But if someone post something about how mechanics like the war dec system are unfair...
Fun story, I do not like the wardec System either.

I hate the 24h timer, highsec wars would be a lot cooler if they'd start immediately after declaration.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Dave Stark
#24 - 2014-04-24 07:34:45 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Marco Algaert wrote:
But if someone post something about how mechanics like the war dec system are unfair...
Fun story, I do not like the wardec System either.

I hate the 24h timer, highsec wars would be a lot cooler if they'd start immediately after declaration.


except we both know that would leave them open to hilarious levels of griefing.
Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
#25 - 2014-04-24 07:38:20 UTC
Pix Severus wrote:
Marco Algaert wrote:
Any time you see forum post about pirates or awoxers people just laugh and say good job.


People posting about how they had fun in the game get treated with respect.

Marco Algaert wrote:
But if someone post something about how mechanics like the war dec system are unfair in certain aspects they get called carebears.


People whining that X is unfair get told to leave.


Well that is not true. Low sec and Null people often whine that hi sec is too rich and it's not fair and manage to turn it to seem like hi seccers are whining, when in fact it is gankers and null who whine the most. By your logic all of the goons and most of low would have been told to leave. But instead they are cheered on and pandered to. But hey, I had fun doing missions today!
Jack Lennox
Grove Street Families
#26 - 2014-04-24 07:42:12 UTC
Marco Algaert wrote:
Why aren't pvpers called carebears for voicing their opinions about other aspects of the game?




You really don't understand what "carebear" means do you?

Been ganked? Robbed? Space feelings hurt?  Now there's something you can do! Fill out a Customer Service Comment Card!  EIther that or contact everyone's favorite Space Detective for an instant ban!
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#27 - 2014-04-24 07:50:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
What a carebear is or isn't is not the issue, the issue is both camps feeling the other's opinions are less worthy of existing because it's different from their own.

Some high-sec PvE/industrial centric players feel low/null sec "griefers" shouldn't have an opinion worth listening to.

And some low-sec PvP centric players feel high-sec PvE/industrialists shouldn't have an opinion worth listening to.


The issue presents itself when the parties involved feel that the other side's position is sufficient reason to launch into a personal attack, that because they've chosen differently, they're wrong and need to be accosted for it.

The fact of the matter is, there is no right and wrong between which side of the matter you choose to represent. What defines the "right and wrong" is how you go about defending your opinions, and disagreeing with others. If you're incapable of stating your point of view without breaking the forums rules concerning being respectful towards others at all times, you should not be allowed to continue voicing your opinion until you demonstrate a firm understanding of what's expected.

The right and wrong isn't determined by the choice you make regarding how to play, the right and wrong is documented in your in/ability to properly conduct expressing your opinions and respecting the right of others to do the same.
Salvos Rhoska
#28 - 2014-04-24 08:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
I dont hate industrialists.
I am however secretly jealous of their initiated knowledge.
Im smart and objective enough to realise that is caused by my own laziness in not finding out for myself what it is all about.
Its not them that I hate for playing that side ofnthe game and learning it, its my own lack of effort in doing the same, that I have to lay the blame on.

I think many people dont have the brains for industry, and therefore attack that which they do not understand, in the only which they know how, which is low-brow trolling and provocation, because it frightens them.

You might be getting the wrong picture though, if you are drawing this conclusion about attitude towards Industrialists, only from observing GD.

The directly industry related boards are much better discussion on these topics, filled with brighter and more informed heads.
Infact thqt can be said about ALL specific subforums on this site.
On GD, every thread, sooner or later, disintegrates into a shitstorm of one magnitude or another.
(Someone really should create a scientific standard for measurement of the strength of a shitstorm, like Richter scale for earthquakes)

Its sort of like the difference between the economy pages, and the public opinion pages of a newspaper.
The former written and read by people who "know", the latter by asshats who dont.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#29 - 2014-04-24 08:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
By the way, the term "carebear" can just as well apply to PVP-ers. You will however hear a different jargon:

A "risk averse blobber" is a person that only PVP's in the safety of a fleet. Usually has 99% KB efficiency, limited actual PVP knowledge and zero solo experience.

A "lazy gatecamper" is a person that sits on a busy gate with a couple of likeminded sensor-boosted individuals, blapping everyone that passes. KB efficiency is more or less based on their ability to monitor traffic, not their actual player skills.

A "FW farmer" is not really a PVPer at all. These guys do PVE in a hostile environment but never fight back, opting to play hide and seek every single time. These guys are just no fun.

The term "carebear" applies to a certain mentality, one that deems preventing losses of utmost importance. You know that one guy who keeps scolding you for undocking solo and losing ships roaming around? He's also a carebear, one of the worst. And probably the FC of that aforementioned blob haha! Lol Carebearing has nothing to do with PVE. Some indies I know are quite hardcore at what they do.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#30 - 2014-04-24 08:38:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Divine Entervention wrote:
What a carebear is or isn't is not the issue
Sure it is, because it is his failure to make the distinction that causes the OP to ask a question about an opinion that doesn't even exist. You're making the same error by thinking it has to do with PvE/industry-centric vs. PvP-centric.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#31 - 2014-04-24 08:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Tippia wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
What a carebear is or isn't is not the issue
Sure it is, because it is his failure to make the distinction that causes the OP to ask a question about an opinion that doesn't even exist. You're making the same error by thinking it has to do with PvE/industry-centric vs. PvP-centric.


Yea I was focusing and assigning the thread title more on his first question about people hating on industrialists rather than the last question of his asking why aren't pvpers called carebears. But I guess since he doesn't specify which question it is that he feels is the one regarding mindset, that either or could be the crux of his post. My fault.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#32 - 2014-04-24 08:55:00 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Yea I was focusing more on his first question about people hating on industrialists rather than the last question of his asking why aren't pvpers called carebears. My fault.

The answer is the same there: the question is fundamentally malformed because it presumes an opposition of viewpoints that doesn't exist. As others have pointed out, there is no hate against industrialists — the annoyance is with an attitude, not a specific play style.

If you want to put fancy words on it, it's a difference between permissive and declarative, which is a classic headache in all game design (and which, confusingly enough, means kind of the opposite of what the words might suggest). The permissive design is based on the notion that, unless you're given explicit permission, you can't do something; the declarative design is based on the notion that if you can describe how to do it with the mechanics at hand, you're implicitly allowed to do so.
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#33 - 2014-04-24 09:04:59 UTC
What I miss here OP, is why you care about that.

If you tell me I fail at EVE because I do something "wrong", I'm still the one enjoying MY game instead of worrying about the way others play it.

I'm also interested why you hate industrialists OP. You are an EVE pilot right? Whats with this mindset?
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#34 - 2014-04-24 09:08:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Tippia wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Yea I was focusing more on his first question about people hating on industrialists rather than the last question of his asking why aren't pvpers called carebears. My fault.

The answer is the same there: the question is fundamentally malformed because it presumes an opposition of viewpoints that doesn't exist. As others have pointed out, there is no hate against industrialists — the annoyance is with an attitude, not a specific play style.

If you want to put fancy words on it, it's a difference between permissive and declarative, which is a classic headache in all game design (and which, confusingly enough, means kind of the opposite of what the words might suggest). The permissive design is based on the notion that, unless you're given explicit permission, you can't do something; the declarative design is based on the notion that if you can describe how to do it with the mechanics at hand, you're implicitly allowed to do so.


The hate might not have been demonstrated here in this thread, but that's not to say that "A" hate does not exist. The answer to his question with the phrasing "everyone" is immediately debunked because with one person stating that he does not hate industrialists, then the absolute of "everyone" is shattered. Just as your attempt to say "no" hate exists, the "everyone" hating can't exist either.

But if you consider the entire context of the message, it's obvious to come to the conclusion that the OP has encountered an experience where he was persecuted for how he wishes to play EvE. Now without choosing to delve into the realm of nit picking the wrong choice of words in the wrong places, a humanistic approach regarding the overall understanding of his intention was enacted by me, and my answer to his perceived dilemma was given in a way I saw fit to answer it.

And just as an "annoyance" can exist with an attitude of one specific playstyle, it can exist with the opposite as well.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2014-04-24 09:14:39 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
But if you consider the entire context of the message, it's obvious to come to the conclusion that the OP has encountered an experience where he was persecuted for how he wishes to play EvE.
…and it is pretty much guaranteed not to be related to his presumed playstyle. That almost only happens in the opposite direction (cf. all the “PvPers are sociopaths” lunacy).
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#36 - 2014-04-24 09:26:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
But if you consider the entire context of the message, it's obvious to come to the conclusion that the OP has encountered an experience where he was persecuted for how he wishes to play EvE.
…and it is pretty much guaranteed not to be related to his presumed playstyle. That almost only happens in the opposite direction (cf. all the “PvPers are sociopaths” lunacy).


Except that something caused him to want to make the thread in the first place. If he hadn't experienced any "hate" towards how he's playing the game, he probably wouldn't have arrived at his conclusion that "everyone hates" industrialists. So either he's seen it, or he's had it happen to him.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#37 - 2014-04-24 09:30:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Divine Entervention wrote:
Except that something caused him to want to make the thread in the first place.
…and if he's an industrialist, that fact has nothing to do with it.

Quote:
If he hadn't experienced any "hate" towards how he's playing the game, he probably wouldn't have arrived at his conclusion that "everyone hates" industrialists.
Sure he would. It's one of the most propagated and nonsensical myths of the game. That's why people are so keen on explaining why it's not a problem that actually exists other than as a fundamental misunderstanding and confusion between carebearism as an attitude and industry as a playstyle.

Really, what's tripping you up is probably your assumption that it is a conclusion he has reached rather than a bit of received wisdom he's heard repeated enough to, sadly, start believing it.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-04-24 09:37:17 UTC
EVE at its core is a competitive game.

Most players, pirates and industrialists alike, understand and embrace this principle. They enjoy trying to get ahead of other players with their skill (pew pew or market skill, whatever). They have a good knowledge of game mechanics and use that to 'win'. They understand that teamwork yields better results than playing alone. They may occasionally suggest minor game changes or balancing to make things more interesting for all.

Some players, again pirates and industrialists alike, just don't understand the game. For some reason, they think that other players 'beat' them not because of skill but because of some 'unfair advantage'. They have a limited knowledge of game mechanics, that's one of the reasons they often 'lose'. They sometimes play alone and think that players that beat them with numbers are 'cheating'. They often suggest game changes that would strongly favour just their own chosen gameplay.


Players in the first category tend to make fun of the second because of the second category's limited knowledge of the game and unwillingness and/or incapability to compete.

Furthermore, until now CCP generally tends to keep the game as competitive as possible, thus giving more legitimacy to the first category of players.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Silky Cyno
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-04-24 09:51:56 UTC
I don't really care about highsec carebears at all, thanks for making stuff for me to explode or get exploded.
Marcus Iunius Brutus
Hoborg Labs
#40 - 2014-04-24 10:00:36 UTC
I have few characters - I do industry in a backwater system, PVP in RvB and low/null exploration.
I also tried mission running for SoE, I even mined some ice blocks in Halaima (loved the local chat when bumpers arrive).

PVP in this game (be it large battles, RvB or ganking) fuels my industry, creates demand for what I produce thus earning me ISK indirectly.
Of course I'm trying not to be the target. On the other hand constant risk of losing assets gives me quite a nice feeling (some adrenaline perhaps).
I prefer doing low sec relic/data sites to high sec because of this feeling.
Piloting Orca through 0.5 system with 4B of cargo feels great too. Yes, I understand the risk and no, it's not on this character or corp.

To be on the topic: I think no one hates industrialists/miner for just doing what they (or rather "we") do, just no one likes people who just complain and don't want to risk a single virtual pixel.