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[Summer 2014] Links Still Dreadful

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Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#21 - 2014-04-24 08:00:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jacob Holland
Blob warfare is not an ideal situation. If the fleet has to be on grid with the booster then the efficient route is to blob...

If the more guerilla methods CCP have talked about in the past are brought in then there is far less reason to blob up if all of your strike forces can simultaneously receive bonuses.

The problem with off-grid boosting in practice is that they're so often AFK alts at safespots or POS. This can be addressed by disallowing link module activation within a POS shield (which should be straightforward and immediately increases the vulnerability of link ships) and to add a significant sig radius/sensor strength penalty to (at least) the Command Processor module (the large amount of electronic noise created by the reverse telemetry system drastically increasing the ease with which ships running lots of links can be probed down).
The combination of these two would (I believe) drastically increase the incentive to have a real, active player at the controls of your fleet's link ship. Because links do not function in warp the safest place for the link ship is, most likely, in range of the logistics ships... And yet the fleet can still operate simultaneously in multiple locations.
Sepheir Sepheron
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-04-24 10:54:19 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Sepheir Sepheron wrote:

Some people don't have money or time for two accounts.

So bring an actual friend? They are allowed. Just because it's the internet doesn't mean you have no friends.


The off grid booster doesn't need to engage or be actively played, unlike most other ship roles, meaning that one person can PvP with both these accounts fairly easily giving the booster pilot little to no attention while his combat pilot enjoys massive bonuses.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#23 - 2014-04-24 17:37:54 UTC

Links are overpowered.

Each warfare link has a power level similar to an entire pirate implant set or standard combat booster.

Snake Implants 1-6 give a 24% boost to speed to ONE SHIP.
Rapid deployment gives a 30% boost to EVERY MEMBER OF THE FLEET.

Furthermore, with your pirate implant set, you are limited to one major set of boosts.
With links, you can have boosts akin to a Snake Set, a Crystal Set, a Halo set, and more, simultaneously, provided to every member of your fleet.

Frankly, links are way out of balance with the rest of EvE's mechanics. This is irrefutable to anyone that actually looks at the numbers. Paying for a second account does not justify an overpowered mechanic. Months of skill training does not justify an overpowered mechanic. Links truly need to be balanced. This may be a nerf of their bonus magnitudes. This may be a nerf to their safety (move them on grid). This may be a hard counter to links (link disruptors).

Here are some deployable structures I think would help balance links:
A.) A device that you anchor in a system (like an ESS) that disables all fleet bonuses within the game.
B.) A device that you anchor in space that disables all fleet bonuses on grid.
Here is a link to the F&I Thread elaborating them.

Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#24 - 2014-04-24 17:55:00 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Links are overpowered.


I think this line of thinking comes mostly from BF and CoD players who are used an environment where reflexes and muscle memory can sometimes let you get crazy 10-0 streaks.

In EVE, 2 vs 1 is always 2 vs 1, regardless of your reflexes. Solo PvP will never be as effective as a group of pilots communicating on voice comms with scouts, links, logi, and ECM.

The bonus links provide is significant, which is a refreshing change from most everything else in EVE to be honest. I think it was Fozzie who said something like "Significantly rewarding collaboration and teamwork? I'm ok with that." in response to a "Links OP" comment.


Bacon makes us stronger
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#25 - 2014-04-24 18:20:23 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Links are overpowered.


I think this line of thinking comes mostly from BF and CoD players who are used an environment where reflexes and muscle memory can sometimes let you get crazy 10-0 streaks.

In EVE, 2 vs 1 is always 2 vs 1, regardless of your reflexes. Solo PvP will never be as effective as a group of pilots communicating on voice comms with scouts, links, logi, and ECM.

The bonus links provide is significant, which is a refreshing change from most everything else in EVE to be honest. I think it was Fozzie who said something like "Significantly rewarding collaboration and teamwork? I'm ok with that." in response to a "Links OP" comment.




I'll counter argue that OGB's do NOT encourage teamwork. They encourage dual boxing to get the excessive benefits they provide, but the link character is almost always somewhere safe-ish and not directly contributing. PvP'ers already team up to take on opponents, they already join fleets to take on targets. The basic fleet benefits of 10% more shields or what not already encourage this. Having teammates that can warp to you, watch your health on watch lists, share broadcasts and tags, and share voice communication, very much encourage teamwork. This teamwork doesn't undermine balance, but provides tactical approaches to overcome your opponent(s). Links allow you to "overcome your opponents" by breaking game balance. And allowing OGBs to break the balance from a hard-to-interact with ship is way out of line.

Collaboration and teamwork are very much rewarded in the game of 5% benefits, without a need for OGBs. OGB's simply break the games balance, and do so in a really pathetic manner (from an off grid safe spot).
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#26 - 2014-04-24 19:10:44 UTC
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
They are planning to move links on grid at some point. I think it was at the last "EvE Down Under" that Fozzie mentioned some piece of coding that they were working on to help move things in that direction. It's been awhile, but I remember it coming up in the stream.

Honestly, links would be fine if they were placed on grid, and maybe we could get a new destroyer class or something to help bring links into small gang. Perhaps some small tweaks to their strength would be needed, but probably not a lot. Why passive boosts that do not require the booster to be on grid were ever implemented in the first place is kind of beyond me...but I like to think of things in a "do it right the first time" perspective, and hindsight is always 20/20. So whatever.

You can make a T3 warp as fast and be as agile as a destroyer. I'm not convinced you 'need' a destroyer for small gangs when you can be quite viable with a T3 (Even a CS can be made almost as fast & agile).
Yes you sacrifice tank & DPS to do so, but you aren't going to get max tank & DPS of a CS on a destroyer sized alternative either.
It seems simply to be asked for in order to make links cheap.


Yes but T3's can only enter into large plexes in FW space. A destroyer could enter into anything other then novice plexes...which I think is reasonable, though I'm sure one could debate where exactly links should be allowed. Restricting links to T3's and command ships while requiring them to be on grid would make them unable to be used in the majority of FW fighting/piracy. So while I see your point, I don't think the strength of T3's is enough of a reason to deter a small-gang (or micro-gang, as Ripard Teg would call it) alternative.

Cost...you're also forgetting cost. A t2 command dessy would around 40-50 mil as opposed to ten times that much for a t3. In the world of fast, furious on-grid fleets, which would you prefer to risk losing?
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#27 - 2014-04-24 19:19:42 UTC
Also to be quite honest, I have to agree with some of the sentiments earlier about how niche gameplay with training for command ruins a big part of the game. The skills associated with training into command ships themselves have little to no crossover for any other ships or modules in-game that aren't in relation to leadership or command. Bringing the skill reqs for them down to lvl 4 skills, or better yet, to the link types they get bonuses for would be ideal.
Of course, ALL of that would have to come before bringing links on-field. OGBs give a clear advantage to the pilot willing to spend more to win, which takes a big, steaming dump on the advantages of NOT having a leveling system in this game that gives better and more equal footing to not only newer players, but the vast majority of pilots in this game who don't play pay to win. Which is an absolutely vile aspect of any online game.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#28 - 2014-04-24 19:22:00 UTC
plz nerf logi at the same time.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-04-24 20:55:48 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Links are overpowered.


I think this line of thinking comes mostly from BF and CoD players who are used an environment where reflexes and muscle memory can sometimes let you get crazy 10-0 streaks.

In EVE, 2 vs 1 is always 2 vs 1, regardless of your reflexes. Solo PvP will never be as effective as a group of pilots communicating on voice comms with scouts, links, logi, and ECM.

The bonus links provide is significant, which is a refreshing change from most everything else in EVE to be honest. I think it was Fozzie who said something like "Significantly rewarding collaboration and teamwork? I'm ok with that." in response to a "Links OP" comment.




Using the right set of skill for a game can make you dominate in that game. Thank you for sharing this info m8. If player were facing off with equal loadout in EVE, it would end up the same way as it does in CoD/BF, the guy with the best skillset would win.

Everything changing the course of a fight should be vulnerable on grid where that fight happen.

There is no cooperation/teamwork involved in having an afk ship hidden in space.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-04-24 20:57:52 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
plz nerf logi at the same time.


You have guns/e-war for that.
Phaade
Know-Nothings
Negative Feedback
#31 - 2014-04-24 21:01:45 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Links are overpowered.


I think this line of thinking comes mostly from BF and CoD players who are used an environment where reflexes and muscle memory can sometimes let you get crazy 10-0 streaks.

In EVE, 2 vs 1 is always 2 vs 1, regardless of your reflexes. Solo PvP will never be as effective as a group of pilots communicating on voice comms with scouts, links, logi, and ECM.

The bonus links provide is significant, which is a refreshing change from most everything else in EVE to be honest. I think it was Fozzie who said something like "Significantly rewarding collaboration and teamwork? I'm ok with that." in response to a "Links OP" comment.




Your post is convoluted and senseless.

There is no collaboration and teamwork with links in their current form. Literally none. The bonus is not "significant" it is game-breaking. The engagement profile in a linked ship is staggering; 30% more speed, 30km point range, and then another massive boost like sig radius or rep amount from ONE SHIP.

How much more difficult is it to be caught as a kiter with these bonuses than without? Or to catch kiters with these bonuses than without?

The answer is that links make life WORLDS easier, while completely boning those of us who choose not to pay 30
Phaade
Know-Nothings
Negative Feedback
#32 - 2014-04-24 21:03:11 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
plz nerf logi at the same time.


You forget to use your brain?

How does that relate to anything in this thread?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#33 - 2014-04-24 21:13:24 UTC
In a game where pilot skill is supposed to make a difference, why is a char who's only contribution to the fight is his SP such a big impact?

The mechanic itself is overpowered, the concept is bad and it does not encourage team play, the only boosters ive seen playing the game at the same time as boosting is in the NEO and AT's. I myself have trained an alt, JUST FOR BOOSTS. woo!

No really, just get rid of it, and allow a command ship to quick scan a ships resist profile, ehp, capacitor and mods so it can make decisions based on information in the middle of a fight or something.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Kenrailae
Scrapyard Artificer's
#34 - 2014-04-24 22:16:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
Daichi Yamato wrote:
No really, just get rid of it, and allow a command ship to quick scan a ships resist profile, ehp, capacitor and mods so it can make decisions based on information in the middle of a fight or something.



That would all be well and good if there was a good way to relay all that info without arbitrary broadcasts or talking over FC's... but that isn't an option right now. Now if CCP wanted to build a new interface for it, where I could quick scan 5 ships, then broadcast as 'A, EM hole, AB/Buffer fit,' 'B, XLASB, high resists, avoid,' 'C, capped out, hardeners off!!!,' Etc....and have it appear over the target or something... that'd be different. But with current tools, both in terms of Eve interfaces and TS3/Vent/Mumble... it'd be pretty useless anyway, given FC's, logi FC's, scouts, etc.


EDITING IN:

I think it's also important to note that links allow smaller groups to fight larger groups, regardless of OfGB or OnGB. They're one of the few things in Eve that can actually really counter the numbers game. It's true there are cases where they are used in a vastly OP way, such as a frigate warping into FW complexes with a links pilot somewhere, but this is NOT the only way they are used. Nerfing links will inherently buff blob warfare by removing one of the few things that can even the field. The ability to get on field and stay on field long enough for the blob's less skilled pilots to start making mistakes is a really big thing. It's also true that every time you bring friends someone cries blob.... even if you still don't bring as many people as they brought. Are you really wanting to destroy one of the few things that CAN fight the blob? If you are, I hear Brave newbies is recruiting.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#35 - 2014-04-24 22:26:27 UTC
Phaade wrote:
...


Daichi Yamato wrote:
...


Hi, you must be new here. My name is Carmen, and I'm here to teach you the basics of EVE online.

As in real life, there are very few fair fights. If you want fair fights, just about any game besides EVE will do. People are really excited about Star Citizen, maybe you should check it out? With any luck, it won't have warfare links.

You are right, links are game-breaking. As in, the team with links will break you if you don't have links. Get your own links.

The problem is that this is true of many other eve mechanics. A team with ECM beats a team without ECM. A team with logi beats a team without logi. The outcome of most fights are determined before any ships land on grid. This is the great secret of EVE that no one seems to get. It's 90% planning, 10% execution. If you want a game where it's all about execution, go play BF or CoD as I suggested earlier. EVE is a cerebral game where planning and scheming pays off far more than what you do in the heat of the battle. It's been like this since 2003.


Bacon makes us stronger
Viribus
Bayraktar Warlord
Aurora. Australis
#36 - 2014-04-24 22:53:28 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
The bonus links provide is significant, which is a refreshing change from most everything else in EVE to be honest. I think it was Fozzie who said something like "Significantly rewarding collaboration and teamwork? I'm ok with that." in response to a "Links OP" comment.


In a shocking turn of events, Fozzie is wrong. They don't reward collaboration and teamwork, they reward having an alt specced into leadership. Collaboration and teamwork give their own rewards in the form of having a more effective and coordinated fleet than your enemy. Isn't numbers enough of an advantage? Why does each individual ship also have to be significantly more powerful in a fleet than on its own?

I've been thinking about it and honestly can't think of a single downside to just removing leadership bonuses altogether, it's all upsides:


  • Less alting; nobody trains this stuff on their main. Every other category of combat supports has some impact across multiple ship types, while Leadership is only useful for boosting, and on top of that, needs a Charisma remap. They also need mindlinks, expensive implants that have no benefit outside of boosting. Even dedicated FCs rarely max leadership skills on their main.
  • More newbie friendly. Not requiring a dedicated link alt to fly a competitive fleet without a massive numbers advantage.
  • Everything's less tanky, more stuff dying. GREAT
  • Less tackle range = more brawling. Thank God for Dead Nomens
  • Passive gameplay sucks. "Hey I'm just gonna sit here in my 300k EHP ship and double the tank of my entire fleet" GREAT GAME DESIGN CCP
  • No more of these threads


I have a dedicated link alt and I'd biomass him in a heartbeat if it meant no more goddamn fleet bonuses.

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#37 - 2014-04-24 23:10:04 UTC
Viribus wrote:

I have a dedicated link alt and I'd biomass him in a heartbeat if it meant no more goddamn fleet bonuses.


The way CCP would read this comment is that if they remove bonuses, they will lose subs. Losing subs means losing money. Losing money is a great way to run a business.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
HillBillyBushwacker HillFolk
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#38 - 2014-04-24 23:14:43 UTC
Should we remove Falcons and Blackbirds. A ship that keep ANY ship from shooting back is quite "unfair"

As for Command ships..... Im going to take a stab at that all you that object that you have no one that was willing to sacrifice months of training to help the fleet with out getting the killmail? Also going to take a stab that you are to cheap to buy one and to lazy to train for it.

A good bonus toon takes months. You train more than just leadership skill to be a good bonus boat.

We need to nurf the fighters for carriers as well. They should have to be on grid as well?

Logi should get a jamming penalty since they are so far away?

There is nothing "unfair" or broken about any of it......WHY?.... every ship and comp is available to everyone in the game... you just gotta train for it and buy one.
Viribus
Bayraktar Warlord
Aurora. Australis
#39 - 2014-04-24 23:21:36 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Viribus wrote:

I have a dedicated link alt and I'd biomass him in a heartbeat if it meant no more goddamn fleet bonuses.


The way CCP would read this comment is that if they remove bonuses, they will lose subs. Losing subs means losing money. Losing money is a great way to run a business.


Trust me, there's no shortage of stuff to have alts for. My account with the link pilot also has a carrier pilot and a JF pilot

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Alyssa Haginen
Doomheim
#40 - 2014-04-24 23:25:35 UTC
Links are fine the way they are. The main reason people want them to change to on grid only is so medium gangs can still use links where small and solo PvPer will not be able too. An exploit to fix this was mentioned as destroyer able to fit links. This would allow a solo/small gang to run links in a defensive position in complexes and allow for a nano link boat to kite out on field.
From what Ive seen the people trying to fix links are really just trying to 'fix' them up to suit them better. The only other people complaining about links being are solo/small gangs without them. Of course their going to say its overpowered when its winning rather then trying to counter. Links cost isk and take lots of training time so its not like any noob can just go run off grid links in a month.

If CCP wants balanced links they should follow these steps.

Stop links from being active inside pos fields.

Operate links like a deployed module with a 60 sec cycle(Just like bastion without the velocity penalty). People running links would not be able to warp away and would have a 60 second aggression timer to prevent station camping.

Make sure T3's can be combat scanned.

This is all it would take to fix the main problems of links. All the rest are just fleets that got welped to a linked fleet that complained about a loss.