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Incursions -> too much ISK in the economy?
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Roxi Kiru'Atar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2011-11-15 04:59:16 UTC
So, today I ran Incursions for the first time today and I have to say that I'm a little concerned about the Incursion system. While it was certainly nice making 50 million ISK in less than an hour with a fleet that wasn't very good, I'm concerned about how much money that is printing out so quickly. While I'm not certain of this, I wonder if how much money Incursions can dish out is causing, or at least encouraging, the strange upward climb in PLEX prices. It seems silly to me that more money can be made safely in high security space than say, wormholes. Also, when you make money from missions, wormholes, or ratting in 0.0, much of the money is being made from loot collected, IE ISK is not being printed out for the armor plates you salvage or that deadspace module you pick up. Sure some money is printed from the bounty of the ship being destroyed or the tags from the Sleepers being purchased by NPC buyers, but EVE does also have sinks built into it to suck some ISK out of the game.
Zions Child
Higashikata Industries
#2 - 2011-11-15 05:00:38 UTC
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: Incursions need to be altered. Or ganked.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#3 - 2011-11-15 05:03:10 UTC
Im trying to picture you with a mustache...
Lucas Quaan
Goryn Clade
#4 - 2011-11-15 10:06:36 UTC
The problem is not so much the ISK they generate as the fact they do so in high-sec. This skews the risk/reward balance between different types of space and also means you have no way of competing for the rewards by shooting the other guy. I say move all incursions to low-sec as a first step before looking at reducing payouts.
DeliaPrescot
Balintol
#5 - 2011-11-15 10:08:42 UTC  |  Edited by: DeliaPrescot
You can do a rough estimate:
A HIGHSEC Incursion generates about 20b (low estimate others say about 40b) per hour for all players invovled running sites.
Now 20b x 24h = 480b, roughly 500b per day that are injected into the EVE economy. Now you can argue that those player running Incursion sites won't run lvl 4 or whatever. Again rough estimate, lvl 4 generate about 15m per h per player, Incursions about 75m per h per player, factor that in the 500b per day you still have an extra of 400b injected daily into the EVE economy, i would call that pretty significant.
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2011-11-15 11:41:02 UTC
plainly needs a giant swing of the bat.

Personally while CCP are busy nerfing all things high sec they may as well take the incursions out and make them low/null only.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Kithran
#7 - 2011-11-15 12:16:27 UTC
DeliaPrescot wrote:
You can do a rough estimate:
A HIGHSEC Incursion generates about 20b (low estimate others say about 40b) per hour for all players invovled running sites.
Now 20b x 24h = 480b, roughly 500b per day that are injected into the EVE economy. Now you can argue that those player running Incursion sites won't run lvl 4 or whatever. Again rough estimate, lvl 4 generate about 15m per h per player, Incursions about 75m per h per player, factor that in the 500b per day you still have an extra of 400b injected daily into the EVE economy, i would call that pretty significant.


One thing that is always missed on these calculations is people assume that in a vg fleet they earn (say) 120 mil per hour and simply multiply up to get a total. The thing is there is a ceiling for incursions. If there is only one high sec incursion you will find _everyones_ hourly rate drops as competition increases and this is even the case with two or three incursions nowadays. The fact everyone is saying 'Incursions are a money fountain' means numbers are constantly increasing yet I wouldn't be surprised if the actual total isk coming out of any given incursion has actually been static for a few months.

The only time there is an increase in the total isk is when someone comes up with a way to increase the speed at which a given site can be run or enough people decide to step up to start regularly running larger sites.

Kithran
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2011-11-15 13:03:58 UTC
15M isk/hr is a real lowball number for missions. 40+ in a dedicated mission boat flown competantly. Which is a smaller investment than the blinged out boats flown by happy shiny princessess in incursions. Add to this if I decide to get on and run missions for an hour there is no travel time. There is no searching for a fleet. Within a minute of logging on the isk faucet starts running. Finally incursions are a finite resourse. Missions are infinite. I have other issues with the incursion system but I think their aggregate effect on inflation is minimal.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Lucas Quaan
Goryn Clade
#9 - 2011-11-15 13:23:19 UTC
So you're saying incursions are only 2.5 times as bad as lvl4 missions? Again, it's not the payouts we object to, but the fact that they are in high-sec at all.
AureoLion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2011-11-15 14:21:48 UTC
JitaJane wrote:
15M isk/hr is a real lowball number for missions. 40+ in a dedicated mission boat flown competantly. Which is a smaller investment than the blinged out boats flown by happy shiny princessess in incursions. Add to this if I decide to get on and run missions for an hour there is no travel time. There is no searching for a fleet. Within a minute of logging on the isk faucet starts running. Finally incursions are a finite resourse. Missions are infinite. I have other issues with the incursion system but I think their aggregate effect on inflation is minimal.

15m in only isk seems pretty right, you won't get Blockade all the time, and not everyone is in marauders or faction BSs - and most high-rollers blitz for LP.
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2011-11-15 14:35:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
AureoLion wrote:
15m in only isk seems pretty right, you won't get Blockade all the time, and not everyone is in marauders or faction BSs - and most high-rollers blitz for LP.

The faction standings hit you get for declining missions within the 4h window is so small that - even when you decline many storyline missions - you won't lose standings.

For me the standings hit is -0.0112% per declined mission - Materials for War Preparations gives me +0.73%, Blood Farm gave me +9%, The Governor's Ball +2.39%, Opiate for the Masses +2.23%, ...

I have about 5-6 missions with good payouts that I like to run and just decline everything else.

There is no reason why you shouldn't run Blockade all the time if you desire to do so (I find the TD extremely annoying, though).

(you lose more corp standings but as long as your corp standing remains above -2 - which it always will - faction standings determine agent access if they are better than corp standings)
Roxi Kiru'Atar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2011-11-15 15:38:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Roxi Kiru'Atar
To me though, the main problem is still how you get paid for Incursions, which is from the straight up printing of ISK from Concord into your wallet. Pretty much every other method of making money, while it does have some printing to it, most of the money is being made off of player to player transactions.
1. Missioning-most money is made from sale of salvaged materials, looted modules, or LP conversion
2. Ratting and Deadspace complexes-the biggest payout will be when you get that high tier faction spawn that you kill and pick up a pretty rare item, or from running a complex where you also pick up a significantly more expensive item, but it's only expensive if some player is willing to purchase it.
3. Wormhole sites-Most money is going to come from the sale of sleeper salvage, mined materials, and radar and mag items. Again, these are all items sold to other players.

With these three methods, granted some money is still printed, but most of the money made is from player to player transactions. The fact that Incursions are available and more profitable than most any other professions in high security space just further amplifies the problem. The mechanics of making cash from Incursions needs to be reworked, and then the amount that could be made in High-sec needs to be slashed too. I think that it would be fine if it's more profitable than mission running (they do require gangs to run), but making more money safely in highsec than with similar gangs in W-space is ridiculous.

I also suspect that if Incursions were reworked properly, PLEX prices would settle out. I don't think they'd return to where they were a year ago because the ISK is in the economy and I'm sure CCP isn't going to just zap it out of existence.
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#13 - 2011-11-15 15:43:14 UTC
I was looking at it from a perspective of what injects more isk into the economy. Not who's making a lot of isk in micro econ or the eternal high/low forum whining war. Which I thought was the topic. And no 40 to 60 is not unreasonable for a faction BS with 1/4 the fitting price of an incursion boat. It is actually pretty easy. Sure there are people making much less.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

flakeys
Doomheim
#14 - 2011-11-15 16:40:42 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
Im trying to picture you with a mustache...



Been trying to picture you naked ... DAMN HOT

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#15 - 2011-11-15 16:45:52 UTC
Biggest issues with incursions:

- You can farm the vanguard and other sites for days, even though the NPC's impact on the system has gone to zilch (a full blue bar) because you can defer killing the mothership.

- ISK payout is a bit high and should be traded off with more LP / tags / drops rather then raw ISK. (On the whole, incursions probably pay out about 50% too much when compared to other activities. Which is hurting null-sec populations as people flock to safer space to run incursions rather then put up with null-sec issues.)

Basically, the system impact needs to be changed so that fewer and fewer sites spawn as the bar changes over from red to blue. But there needs to be a limit on how fast the bar can be reduced (say 1% changeover per hour at max as sites are cleared). So once the bar goes blue, there's only 1-2 sites spawning in the system, forcing people to consider going after the other systems in the constellation.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#16 - 2011-11-15 17:38:00 UTC
Another thing to consider: low sec and null sec incursions pay higher. This isk machine is not limited to high sec.

Wormholes are isk printing machines: Blue loot is sold to NPCs.

One way to nerf incursions is to change the victory conditions. Make it so all the NPCs have to be exploded in a site before its complete. Right now fleets just hit the triggers, hit the buttons, and move on. If they had to kill everything it would slow the process.

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AureoLion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-11-15 19:01:18 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
AureoLion wrote:
15m in only isk seems pretty right, you won't get Blockade all the time, and not everyone is in marauders or faction BSs - and most high-rollers blitz for LP.

The faction standings hit you get for declining missions within the 4h window is so small that - even when you decline many storyline missions - you won't lose standings.

For me the standings hit is -0.0112% per declined mission - Materials for War Preparations gives me +0.73%, Blood Farm gave me +9%, The Governor's Ball +2.39%, Opiate for the Masses +2.23%, ...

I have about 5-6 missions with good payouts that I like to run and just decline everything else.

There is no reason why you shouldn't run Blockade all the time if you desire to do so (I find the TD extremely annoying, though).

(you lose more corp standings but as long as your corp standing remains above -2 - which it always will - faction standings determine agent access if they are better than corp standings)

Sure, but you're a minority. I'm not on 5.0 on minmatar yet, and i still refuse pretty long strings of missions.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#18 - 2011-11-15 19:33:26 UTC
You folks are missing the point. While some high sec carebears are running Incursions, the majority are 0.0 alts or mains.
2 of the last 3 times I have run them we have used 0.0 alliance Teamspeak servers.

So you have to look at the opportunity cost here.
There is no doubt that Incursions pay more than 0.0, otherwise the 0.0 players would be running in 0.0.

But you have to look at the difference between people grinding in 0.0 and Incursions, not L4's and Incursions.

Plus, all the numbers being spouted off about ISK/hour in Incursions is crap.
I had to haul butt 25 jumps today to get to the Incursion system, then wait to get picked up in a fleet, then wait for the fleet to assemble. Guess how much ISK I made in that hour plus of messing about?

2 nights ago I was in a crappy fleet and we made 40M in the first hour due to 12 fleets in system chasing 4 NCO and mining colonies.

So don't use the optimal ISK generation as the norm.