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Drug Booster Balancing issues

First post First post
Author
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#121 - 2011-11-22 19:00:28 UTC
So it appears booster changes will be the new litmus test as to the extent that "the new CCP" is willing to respond to player feedback. Yttterbium explained CCP's position, the players have overwhelming asked for boosters to be left alone or to only be revamped once there's time for a full balancing effort, and not just gutting them of all their fun and usefulness.

Now all that's left to do is see if CCP is actually listening here, or whether they have an agenda that will get pushed regardless of player feedback. Only time (and upcoming patch notes) will tell...

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#122 - 2011-11-22 19:13:19 UTC
Don Pellegrino wrote:
Also: it makes drugs not fun and interesting anymore :(

It feels so dumbed down the way you want to make them. It's like a second tier of hardwirings.


This is exactly what they are: temporary hardwirings.

Is that really what you want CCP?
Hamatitio
The Forsakened Few
We Forsakened Few
#123 - 2011-11-22 19:17:21 UTC
Dear CCP:

I read one post in this thread of support of the booster changes you propose. Ask your economist what will happen when you buff an item that has a huge bottleneck to the point of a 'must have' on all ships in eve. Ask any of your devs that pvp regularly what this will do to the landscape. This is a huge change and should not be rushed out like this.

Please don't put this in
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#124 - 2011-11-22 19:40:03 UTC
I (and several other CSM members) pointed out to CCP that this was and is a bad idea. A change like this that will greatly increase demand needs to be balanced with an increase to supply. The hassle of forgetting that you have boosters when you jump into highsec is very annoying as well, and also needs looking at. These changes should be postponed until a better thought out, more complete revision can be made.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#125 - 2011-11-22 20:57:59 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Whatever the specifics are, a side effect that hurts armour amount on an armour tanking booster is a Bad Thing, but side effects (that are still meaningful) in general are a Good Thing.


I think it balances them just fine, but he I wouldn't complain if there is a boost to them, either way these changes make exile far worse than it is even with the penalty.
Caulk H0lster
Kazakh Ministry of Wealth Redistribution
#126 - 2011-11-22 21:03:16 UTC
Two step wrote:
I (and several other CSM members) pointed out to CCP that this was and is a bad idea. A change like this that will greatly increase demand needs to be balanced with an increase to supply. The hassle of forgetting that you have boosters when you jump into highsec is very annoying as well, and also needs looking at. These changes should be postponed until a better thought out, more complete revision can be made.


So what you're saying is...

CCP is still making large PvP (and sorta PvE) gameplay changes, disregarding not only the feedback of the playerbase, but also that of the CSM.

Sounds like the same 'ol CCP to me. Why am I not surprised this whole "refocusing" effort is turning out to be a huge farce to increase subscriber numbers...?
c4 t
Cosmic Psychedelics
#127 - 2011-11-23 03:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: c4 t
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Don Pellegrino wrote:
Really all this is going to do is add another must-have, like faction ammo. It's also going to break several fits and tactics.
Do you have any idea how much of an effect everyone having Motion Prediction level 9 (level 5 + Drop) is going to have on pvp and combat in general?

This is just silly, I can't see ANY benefit to this change at all. The system currently works because the low consuption fits with the low production. And no, increasing demand won't increase production significantly in this case because producers are already fighting for those BPC's.

And on top of all that, reducing the maximum potential of any of those boosters is going to harm solo pvpers that build very thought-out fits around boosters to fight outnumbered.

There is simply no benefit to this change the way it is being planned. It's a major disappointment for us solo pvpers in an otherwise great expansion.


QFT. This sums up my sentiments exactly.

And as an added note, I for one ENJOY the masochistic process of hunting down gas and harvesting it. It's rarely a "carebear" activity, there's never been once that I've engaged in it that I haven't had to dodge, evade, or ECM my way out of danger, and the challenge / thrill of "stealing" valuable materials in dangerous place (and getting back "home" with them intact) has always been part of the fun.

For years now there's been a mystique about boosters, many myths abound about their use and how easy it is or isn't to produce them, creating opportunity for the dedicated and intrepid capsuleer. It still makes me smile when I hear "boosters are usually made at a net loss in terms of isk" or "smuggling is such a pain in the ass" because those of us who are involved have figured out ways around this and profit from a combination of creative logistical management (hauling), exploration, and a dash of market magic.

Ytterbium is right - boosters are a niche thing. But they should be a niche thing. They should be challenging to produce, continue to require a diverse skillset (manufacturing knowledge, market savvy, and defensive PvP skills), and ultimately be rewarding for those that pull it off despite its many challenges. Ytterbium said
Quote:
turn booster distribution into an emergent, player controlled system that is easy to get into, but difficult to control and profit from.
And thats exactly how they are today. Increasing spawn rates, removing side effects, handing them to the masses, all of this compromises a system that is already working like you say it should.

I totally get that without modifying supply end, prices will get jacked hard after the changes. I'll be the first to tell everyone though, i'd much rather make my isk because I found easier ways to pull off a feat that others thought was too difficult / impossible, than profiting simply because I got lucky and beat out other people camping / farming LADAR sites, and found something rare that can be arbitrarily priced sky high with little bearing on what it actually takes to produce that booster.

Anyone can farm a rare / fought over loot drop, sell it, and profit. Big freaking deal. The current manufacturing system is much more complex and nuanced though, meaning its much more satisfying for those of us that have found ways to be successful despite the common idea that "its too much of a pain in the ass".

CCP, please reconsider these changes. This dumbs down boosters in so many ways. Those of us who produce don't need kid glove treatment, and booster users don't need to be coddled by removal of side effects either. Most people agree they are well manageable, and that the element of chance and risk is exactly what makes them embody the spirit of EvE gameplay.

All of the reasons Ytterbium mentioned for changing boosters could be focused on Synth boosters, and synth boosters alone. Give them a bump to 5%, you'll see more people get more involved in Synth production and an increase in Synth popularity. Let the "gateway" drug be just that - a gateway to a world of increased danger and increased reward.

The current changes will see prices jacked, effectiveness reduced, and most players in New Eden (except the filthy rich) will simply shrug their shoulders and give up using boosters entirely. I might personally make a killing as I sell off my stock, but no amount of isk is worth watching a really clever and fun system be destroyed by making boosters cheap candy that sees widespread use (like Faction Ammo), or the "I win" button of the rich.




Agreed. Don't change the production methods, they're perfect. Change the supply of the BPC's and the Gas. Also I agree with a lot of the people here saying completely throwing away booster consequences is silly, for pretty much all the reasons everybody else has detailed in their long posts.
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#128 - 2011-11-23 03:31:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Gevlin
So the plan is to remove the negative effects
increasing the demand
so the current suppliers will encouraged to produce more produce
increase conflict in gas mining areas,
supply will not match demand
cost of Drugs go up especially for high end.

so drugs will be the new Archnor!

then as time advances the supply will become more difficult because of player Busting other players but the supply of components will also increase, respectively moving scarcity of resources to scarcity of legality. Effecting Empire Hghsec.

Ah get everyone hooked first.

I guess since this is boosting low sec and null only this will make a low sec Jita possible.

I am just scratching the surface I bet.

I bet when establishments come out we will be able to make designer drugs that will allow us to:
squeeze more bonus out of them
make them harder to detect
but will have a unique side effect.

So I guess we will be set up to the age of Prohibition.

Since low sec and Null sec count for 20% of the population of eve. I don't thing the Removal of drug negative effects is going to have too much of an effect in eve as 80% of space is null and low sec. The 20% able to use it will have a long time to travel to get easy access to it. (this is not putting worm hole space in to the equation)

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#129 - 2011-11-23 07:49:25 UTC
Alright, one more parallel in case my rigs/boosters comparison didn't cut it.

Why overheating mechanics is so awesome? Because you can burn out your mods!
Extra benefit comes at a cost of extra risk.

Should you eliminate one's ability to destroy his own mods (by fault or sheer misluck), then all of sudden all we are getting is the same mandatory thing everyone and their dog will use mindlessly and all the time.

It's gonna be like: look, I've got a pool of unused overloading time. Go-go! Overload till it exhausts by itself!

Just like with the proposed booster changes: omg, unused booster slot! I've got to go grab something to plug it in!

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Roffle Roffle
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#130 - 2011-11-23 09:19:44 UTC
I'm pretty sure there were some planned booster changes specifically for low sec, to make it more interesting (like making it so you can only trade them there?), but I see that isn't the case anymore, or I just imagined it.

Also, I disapprove of the stat changes.
A30T
Cloak and Daggers
The Initiative.
#131 - 2011-11-23 10:17:21 UTC
The proposed booster changes are really bad, please leave them as it is - they are looks more balanced on TQ than on SISI right now.
Tek Terasi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2011-11-23 11:03:45 UTC
Reporting in for disapprove of the stat change..

Make Ladar widespread available otherwise this won´t end well if you force this Balance Change....
Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#133 - 2011-11-23 11:22:25 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

The current changes will see prices jacked, effectiveness reduced, and most players in New Eden (except the filthy rich) will simply shrug their shoulders and give up using boosters entirely.


Hold on a second - you're contradicting yourself there. If prices go up, but players give up using boosters prices will then go down as supply will exceed demand???

C.

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#134 - 2011-11-23 11:31:59 UTC
Cailais wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

The current changes will see prices jacked, effectiveness reduced, and most players in New Eden (except the filthy rich) will simply shrug their shoulders and give up using boosters entirely.


Hold on a second - you're contradicting yourself there. If prices go up, but players give up using boosters prices will then go down as supply will exceed demand???

It's number of users vs frequency of use.

Right now, you don't swallow a booster unless you need it, because of duration and side effects. After the changes, there is no side effects, and longer duration via skills. So it becomes a no brainer to swallow one every time you undock. No reason not to do it, except cost.

So prices will go up initially, then many people will stop using them, but the ones who do will use them more.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#135 - 2011-11-23 12:20:10 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Cailais wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

The current changes will see prices jacked, effectiveness reduced, and most players in New Eden (except the filthy rich) will simply shrug their shoulders and give up using boosters entirely.


Hold on a second - you're contradicting yourself there. If prices go up, but players give up using boosters prices will then go down as supply will exceed demand???

It's number of users vs frequency of use.

Right now, you don't swallow a booster unless you need it, because of duration and side effects. After the changes, there is no side effects, and longer duration via skills. So it becomes a no brainer to swallow one every time you undock. No reason not to do it, except cost.

So prices will go up initially, then many people will stop using them, but the ones who do will use them more.


I'm still not convinced that 'price rises' are a reason not to implement a change. Equally you could argue that those that use them more, become more successful in PVP contests so others start using them to remain competitive and so on and so forth.

The manufacturers can't complain if demand is high or profits are good - so that rules out that group of objections.

Limited access to the raw materials might be argued to be a 'bad thing' but then again the areas where these resources can be found will encourage conflict for those resources - another objection discounted as it would encourage PVP.

Lack of supply simply means these boosters will have a high demand - and therefore might be worth smuggling.

Even if the argument that they will become 'mandatory' for effective PVP is a false argument as that just reflects back upon the value of the resources and production chain. The only group in this case who can argue are those that can't get them, or cant afford them: which just means they need to try harder.

C.
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#136 - 2011-11-23 12:39:49 UTC
Cailais wrote:
C.


No. You are not Cribba.

I agree with you that price changes are not a reason to cancel a patch but...

Cailais wrote:
Even if the argument that they will become 'mandatory' for effective PVP is a false argument as that just reflects back upon the value of the resources and production chain. The only group in this case who can argue are those that can't get them, or cant afford them: which just means they need to try harder.


However here you just come off as a stupid. I'm not rich (<20bn) but I (like many) can quite comfortably afford to pop boosters and yes this change might generally make the game easier for me and others like me but that does not make it good. You are openly advocating removal of another part of eve that actually requires some brainpower and replacing it with whoever has the bigger wallet (RL or ingame) gets the advantage. Hope can you possibly think this is healthy for the game?


At this point lets just go the whole hog and we'll just have 10 different ships which you pay ISK to upgrade between level 1 and 80. Then pay some more ISK for some potions to give you +10% on some stats for 2 hours. Pay 1000 AUR and you can revive where you died for no penalty....


I agree with CCP that many things in this game were needlessly complicated (agents etc..) but boosters are just dumbing the game down. CCP this isn't going to get you 5 million of WoW's subscribers, its just going to lose you subscribers who want to play REAL eve.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#137 - 2011-11-23 12:43:34 UTC
Cailais wrote:
I'm still not convinced that 'price rises' are a reason not to implement a change. Equally you could argue that those that use them more, become more successful in PVP contests so others start using them to remain competitive and so on and so forth.

They aren't by themselves. But a big price rise would defeat the purpose of this change, i.e. make boosters more commonly used.

Quote:
Even if the argument that they will become 'mandatory' for effective PVP is a false argument as that just reflects back upon the value of the resources and production chain. The only group in this case who can argue are those that can't get them, or cant afford them: which just means they need to try harder.

It's not just affordability. It doesn't matter how much isk you have, at some point the price of the booster vs the price of the ship makes it silly to use them. For example, using exile in an active tanked myrm makes sense when it costs 4 mil, but probably not at 40m.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#138 - 2011-11-23 12:53:00 UTC
Cailais wrote:

Equally you could argue that those that use them more, become more successful in PVP contests so others start using them to remain competitive and so on and so forth.


Except that right now there is a risk that you may get side effects, thus something people consider when taking them to "remain competitive."

Limited access to the raw materials might be argued to be a 'bad thing' but then again the areas where these resources can be found will encourage conflict for those resources - another objection discounted as it would encourage PVP.

Quote:
Lack of supply simply means these boosters will have a high demand - and therefore might be worth smuggling.


They're already worth smuggling.

Quote:
Even if the argument that they will become 'mandatory' for effective PVP is a false argument as that just reflects back upon the value of the resources and production chain. The only group in this case who can argue are those that can't get them, or cant afford them: which just means they need to try harder.

C.


Value of a product should never be considered as a balance measure. People try to justify the dramiel as balanced because its an expensive frigate. Yet, these things are abundant as hell.

If these changes go through, the fact that demand/prices will go through the roof really isn't important. What is significant is the fact that there will be no other negative aspect of boosters, no reason to not use them. About to get into a fight with someone who outranges you a bit? Pop a frentix. Think they might outdamage you a bit? Take a standard exile. Fighting a battleship with a hurricane? Drop some x-instinct.

As demand stays steady, supply will balance out and prices will come to a happy place. We have tons of gas in fountain that doesn't get harvested because...why bother? Prices will initially skyrocket with these changes, but as we send our bears to harvest gas the prices will go back to a nice spot and people will be happy.

This is absolutely terrible. Boosters should not be temporary hardwirings that you can literally pick whatever you need and have no downside to. Even with hardwirings we have to have separate clones with separate dedicated slots or destroy hardwirings that we have currently to get different ones. With this change you will be able to take whatever booster you need at a given time with no repercussions other than you have to wait an hour (or however long that day) to pop another. On top of that, you could actually have up to 2 different types affecting you simultaneously WITH NO REPERCUSSIONS (slot for tank, slot for damage). Currently this would mean the chance of 0-8 side effects. Now it will mean....nothing bad at all, yay happy times!

Drastic changes like this are absolutely terrible for "balance".
AkiRoss
Rez Corporation
#139 - 2011-11-23 13:27:33 UTC
Quote:
About to get into a fight with someone who outranges you a bit? Pop a frentix. Think they might outdamage you a bit? Take a standard exile. Fighting a battleship with a hurricane? Drop some x-instinct.


Today on SISI isn't that the same ? The only difference is the result, not the initial question. With Side-Effects you have the risk to waste your money. People won't waste 30M ISK if they don't need to. Not everyone play with a Slave, not everyone can spend 30M every day (yes, this is 1h farming for most people).

I am sorry but 95% of EvE Players not using Boosters are really happy with this change. While I don't really like side-effects, I love the idea of having addictions mechanics later on. Anyway, I hope this modification will hit TQ next week ;)
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#140 - 2011-11-23 13:44:31 UTC
AkiRoss wrote:
Quote:
About to get into a fight with someone who outranges you a bit? Pop a frentix. Think they might outdamage you a bit? Take a standard exile. Fighting a battleship with a hurricane? Drop some x-instinct.


Today on SISI isn't that the same ? The only difference is the result, not the initial question. With Side-Effects you have the risk to waste your money. People won't waste 30M ISK if they don't need to. Not everyone play with a Slave, not everyone can spend 30M every day (yes, this is 1h farming for most people).

I am sorry but 95% of EvE Players not using Boosters are really happy with this change. While I don't really like side-effects, I love the idea of having addictions mechanics later on. Anyway, I hope this modification will hit TQ next week ;)


Setting for this change and a promise of addictions in the future is like settling for a fat chick. Sure it works, but its still a fat chick.

Also, sweet 95% stat, do that study all on your own?

But really, I don't think you fully understand the current situation. Can you choose which pill to take now? Absolutely. But you're not just risking money, you're risking side effects that could result in complete backfire on your entire plan. THIS IS A GOOD THING. Do I think they're a bit too much on Tranq right now? Yeah, 0-4 side effects that could completely nullify the gains of your boost is a tad silly. But With these changes there will be no reason to not take a pill or two before every fight.

And money is not a damn deterrent. Not to mention the fact that standard pills (which give pretty nice boosts, and will continue to do so with proper skill training if these changes go through) are relatively cheap. Their price will spike if demand spikes but as they are really easy to make and there is tons of unharvested gas in null sec right now, I can assure you right now that the gas supply will follow and prices for standard pills at least will stabilize pretty quickly.