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Drug Booster Balancing issues

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Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
#81 - 2011-11-22 10:57:22 UTC
Demon Azrakel wrote:
My biggest problem is that a skill that I trained to 5 now hinders me instead of helping me. I don't want the booster to last a long time; the sooner that booster wears out, the sooner I can decide if a different booster is in order (See triage pilot: Mindflood or Blue Pill / Exile Booster). A better change would have been to leave all else the same and change the skill that reduced bad things by 5% per level to 10% or 15% even. 5% reduction per level hardly felt like it was reducing the risk. There should still be non-empire-legality-related risk, just not necessarily so high. That said, I need to find some indy guy to make me some of this stuff...


This is actually a pretty decent point. Having a slot tied up with Exile is great if I'm flying, say, a solo Myrm while waiting for an op to form up but having that slot tied up for hours until I can consume a Mindflood when the op gets going as a logi for a gang as a direct result of the skills I trained is argh.

Boosters should really remain relatively short burst things.

Also agreeing with Leboe - gas mining mechanics are terrible.

On the same note, I do hope the Cytocerosin clouds aren't going to remain limited to the handful of static locations and considering Synth is cheap and near worthless with these changes Mykoserocin clouds really aren't something I'd go out of my way to harvest were I to probe out a Ladar site.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#82 - 2011-11-22 12:40:33 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Hey folks, it seems this thread needs some attention.


Let us explain why we are not happy with current state of boosters on Tranquility:

  • Unpredictability: that is due to the side-effects being randomly applied when you consume a booster, and that often hampers the very points you are trying to boost. As examples, chance of reducing shield capacity when consuming Blue Pills, missile velocity with Crash, or armor hitpoint / capacitor penalty with Exile. The list goes on, but the important point to remember here is that unpredictable mechanics on a player produced, controlled item do little to promote the usefulness of it in the long run.

  • Production complexity: boosters, as short-term consumables, are too time consuming and complex to produce. They require a combination of reactions and manufacturing, while relying on limited supply of skills, gas distributions and commodities to produce.

  • Distribution inconsistency: since most of them are illegal, smuggling boosters back into high-sec is highly unreliable due to the bugged and incoherent nature of Customs NPCs.


Basically, boosters are they stand right now should be used more than in just a few niche situations. There are a lot of points to improve, but instead of trying to revamp everything quite blindly in one release, we chose to adopt a more conservative step-by-step approach and see actual consequences before moving on to the next step. That also fits well with our "thousand little things" project, which consists of many, small iterations on existing features.

The changes about to be deployed for Crucible look into their unpredictability, by making them more appealing to a broader portion of our player base. Since they are supposed to be more reliable, we tuned down their effects a bit, while revamping old skills to partly compensate for the change. We also do know this is going to cause prices issue as the production isn't changed for the time being.


To help you understand why this was done and how this fits in our general scheme, here is a glimpse of our long term vision for boosters, smuggling and contraband:

  • Production changes: as stated above, iterate on booster production to make them more available, at least on their synth and standard variations. That includes, but is not limited to, gas distribution changes, modifications in the reaction and manufacturing process, remove or adjust some skills.

  • Distribution iteration: have a look on how booster components (gases, pure booster reactions and commodities) are moved around, iterate on their illegality status.

  • Consumption iteration: look at how boosters are consumed, possibly look into and replace unpredictable side-effects by addiction mechanics (remember, first one is free).

  • Smuggling improvements: possibly remove Custom NPCs, and move the act of scanning and seizing contraband into player hands. Coupled with the points above, make smuggling of large illegal goods or more potent boosters challenging but rewarding in low/high-security space, turn booster distribution into an emergent, player controlled system that is easy to get into, but difficult to control and profit from. And finally, look into ways to promote low-security and fringes of high-security space as main sources of smuggling, contraband production and distribution.



Remember all of this remains soon™ material and are no way fixed in stone right now. We just wanted to be a bit more transparent on why this change is happening and which goals we are attempting to reach.


Note: Alchemist and Edge implant sets are an oversight that are being looked into. Fix will most likely not make it for Crucible release, but shortly after, so we advise you to hold on to them.


Hope that helps.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2011-11-22 12:52:34 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:



Hope that helps.


it does !
Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#84 - 2011-11-22 13:29:54 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


  • Production changes: as stated above, iterate on booster production to make them more available, at least on their synth and standard variations. That includes, but is not limited to, gas distribution changes, modifications in the reaction and manufacturing process, remove or adjust some skills.

  • Distribution iteration: have a look on how booster components (gases, pure booster reactions and commodities) are moved around, iterate on their illegality status.

  • Consumption iteration: look at how boosters are consumed, possibly look into and replace unpredictable side-effects by addiction mechanics (remember, first one is free).

  • Smuggling improvements: possibly remove Custom NPCs, and move the act of scanning and seizing contraband into player hands. Coupled with the points above, make smuggling of large illegal goods or more potent boosters challenging but rewarding in low/high-security space, turn booster distribution into an emergent, player controlled system that is easy to get into, but difficult to control and profit from. And finally, look into ways to promote low-security and fringes of high-security space as main sources of smuggling, contraband production and distribution.



Remember all of this remains soon™ material and are no way fixed in stone right now. We just wanted to be a bit more transparent on why this change is happening and which goals we are attempting to reach.


Hope that helps.


Its possible that 'good' boosters will generate a user need/addiction in and of themselves - players could, conceivably, become so accustomed to using them that they can't do without them. Finding and exploiting the raw ingredients and then manufacturing the product is not really a straight forward process as it stands with gas clouds being restricted to specific null sec constellations and only certain gas types being available in them. This makes 'mining gas' a difficult proposition.

My personal view is that the raw ingredients should be common place enough - with a more involved industrial process the further up the potency tree you go. Poor quality boosters should have some disadvantages - after all they're less refined, less 'pure' and therefore have a bigger 'hangover' effect, but they would be comparatively common place. Stronger, purer boosters should have limited or no side effects, but are harder to manufacture and need more esoteric materials.

In terms of smuggling I think a suitable approach would be that star gates scan, and record a vessel transiting through them. This process would be largely invisible to a player but common sense rules would apply (high sec gates are more likely to detect boosters, null sec gates less so). As a player progresses through various system gates they would accrue a 'residue' of alarms that would eventually set them to a 'flashy red' status. This removes the rather impractical task of trying to scan cloaked haulers / ceptors zipping through systems with their holds full of booster goodness.

Id rather see something of this nature implemented than just a flat 'booster boost' :)

C.
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#85 - 2011-11-22 13:36:13 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey folks, it seems this thread needs some attention.
......

Basically, boosters are they stand right now should be used more than in just a few niche situations. There are a lot of points to improve, but instead of trying to revamp everything quite blindly in one release, we chose to adopt a more conservative step-by-step approach and see actual consequences before moving on to the next step. That also fits well with our "thousand little things" project, which consists of many, small iterations on existing features.

The changes about to be deployed for Crucible look into their unpredictability, by making them more appealing to a broader portion of our player base. Since they are supposed to be more reliable, we tuned down their effects a bit, while revamping old skills to partly compensate for the change. We also do know this is going to cause prices issue as the production isn't changed for the time being.
........

Hope that helps.

Ytterbium, you do realise that you are making the cost of PvP go up radically, at least in the short term and in the long term, it will make drugs an obligatory item that you cannot undock without?

Have you thought about the effect on newer players? It is already practically impossible for newer players to enter into PvP until they have both the ISK and the skills to fit rigs and T2 weapons and mods. It has become practically obligatory for gangs to fly with T3 boosting alts. With these changes it will be obligatory to consume drugs to partake in realistic PvP and adds yet another layer of complexity that newer players are going to have to understand.

I don't know what the effect of this will be, but I suspect that the ranks of beginner PvP corps will thin out and losec will be even emptier than it already is outside of FW hub areas. It will give big alliances and even greater advantage because they will be able to afford the obligatory drugs on each combat roam.

Considering the cost of the higher tier drugs, improved and strong, and the large difference between them and the lower tiers, it is going to disadvantage more people than it advantage.

Please don't do another Tier 3 BC on us.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#86 - 2011-11-22 13:41:42 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Let us explain why we are not happy with current state of boosters on Tranquility:

  • Unpredictability: that is due to the side-effects being randomly applied when you consume a booster, and that often hampers the very points you are trying to boost. As examples, chance of reducing shield capacity when consuming Blue Pills, missile velocity with Crash, or armor hitpoint / capacitor penalty with Exile. The list goes on, but the important point to remember here is that unpredictable mechanics on a player produced, controlled item do little to promote the usefulness of it in the long run.

  • Production complexity: boosters, as short-term consumables, are too time consuming and complex to produce. They require a combination of reactions and manufacturing, while relying on limited supply of skills, gas distributions and commodities to produce.

  • Distribution inconsistency: since most of them are illegal, smuggling boosters back into high-sec is highly unreliable due to the bugged and incoherent nature of Customs NPCs.

Frankly, I think the first point (the one you are addressing in this expansion) is moot unless the other two are addressed. We don't use boosters often because they are expensive and a pain to get and move. Side effects rarely come into the equation.

If you had addressed the bottlenecks without adjusting side effects, you might have made boosters more popular. Doing it the other way around is unlikely to help.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Don Pellegrino
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2011-11-22 13:42:18 UTC
Really all this is going to do is add another must-have, like faction ammo. It's also going to break several fits and tactics.
Do you have any idea how much of an effect everyone having Motion Prediction level 9 (level 5 + Drop) is going to have on pvp and combat in general?

This is just silly, I can't see ANY benefit to this change at all. The system currently works because the low consuption fits with the low production. And no, increasing demand won't increase production significantly in this case because producers are already fighting for those BPC's.

And on top of all that, reducing the maximum potential of any of those boosters is going to harm solo pvpers that build very thought-out fits around boosters to fight outnumbered.

There is simply no benefit to this change the way it is being planned. It's a major disappointment for us solo pvpers in an otherwise great expansion.
Dr Halberstam
Nine Eyes Medical
#88 - 2011-11-22 13:48:14 UTC
edit: just about everyone else above me ninjaed my point, but still.

I dont know what to say, honestly. Imo he misses the point entirely when bemoaning their unpredictability. I think the reason they arent used is pricing and scarcity, not the side effects.
Then again it is probably easier to fix side effects than the whole scarcity issue.
Also I dont see anything wrong with their production either. Sure, its complicated and obscure, but its entirely learnable.

Seems to me that there is a continuum of aspects to this dilemma: low demand <-> high prices <-> material scarcity.

- i think the low demand is a result of scarcity, fixing which would result in more use through better prices
- he seems to think that scarcity is the result of (or enouraged by) low demand, and stimulating demand by eliminating deterrents (side effects) will fix scarcity

not to mention that should demand be stimulated by a high benefit/risk ratio (like they plan on doing now), and they actually fix scarcity as well, they will end up with a no-brainer product like faction ammo:
No inherent risk (lets ignore illegality now), no real hurdle to supply - only thing to comtemplate for the buyer is whether to spend the money or not.

I prefer how it is now - unique advantages, which carry a risk of debilitating drawbacks. User needs to weigh carefully if the benefit is worth the risk - interesting gameplay.
Disposable hardwires (which they seem to be evolving into) are not interesting gameplay.

i also am sceptical about future iteration on half-fixed features, but that might ge just my pessimism.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#89 - 2011-11-22 13:55:21 UTC
Caulk H0lster wrote:
Also, I'd like to add as a more anecdotal comment: Before these changes were announced, booster market demand was minimal, at best. I would often sit on billions of isk worth of stock for months because there just wasn't a lot of people using boosters. Though I was often able to make sales thorough the forums or by other means of setting up private transactions, often the effort and cost involved with delivery was more than it was worth to accomplish. Boosters DO need something to make them more appealing and increase market demand, and these changes have done WONDERS for that. Still, CCP really should consider if they are going to increase demand so substantially for boosters, that they NEED to increase the supply of the materials which the boosters are made of (gas clouds and blueprints, specifically), and may also want to look into adding more diversity to their distribution throughout the galaxy.


One possible solution here would be to allow illegal boosters to be sold via the Market window (and not just via contracts), but only in null-sec stations (maybe lo-sec too?). The stations in hi-sec would not want you peddling your wares via the open market, but there's no reason that they can't be sold openly in null-sec outposts.
Dr Halberstam
Nine Eyes Medical
#90 - 2011-11-22 14:02:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Halberstam
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
One possible solution here would be to allow illegal boosters to be sold via the Market window (and not just via contracts), but only in null-sec stations (maybe lo-sec too?). The stations in hi-sec would not want you peddling your wares via the open market, but there's no reason that they can't be sold openly in null-sec outposts.


it is entirely possible to sell them on the market, and has been like that for quite a while now. see Jita.

and edit: interestingly you cannot directly contract them however, only as a required item in wtb-s
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#91 - 2011-11-22 14:08:29 UTC
Yay! I'm glad the 200m I spent on skills and nearly as much again in drugs isn't soon to be worthless with these changes.

CCP ruins another part of their game, no there is no reason to use anything other than strong with no side effects and also because who is going to even bother injecting less than strong. An improved X-instinct will only give a 5.5% sig radius reduction, that'll hardly sway a fight...

Seriously CCP the current system is so much better than this.
Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2011-11-22 14:11:20 UTC
Quote:
Unpredictability: that is due to the side-effects being randomly applied when you consume a booster, and that often hampers the very points you are trying to boost. As examples, chance of reducing shield capacity when consuming Blue Pills, missile velocity with Crash, or armor hitpoint / capacitor penalty with Exile. The list goes on, but the important point to remember here is that unpredictable mechanics on a player produced, controlled item do little to promote the usefulness of it in the long run.


Better to change the penalty for things that aren't going to affect the same stat as badly, made it not just another generic boost item. Perhaps make the next level up over synth also have no penalties but the top levels should have them.

Quote:
Distribution inconsistency: since most of them are illegal, smuggling boosters back into high-sec is highly unreliable due to the bugged and incoherent nature of Customs NPCs.


Not sure Distribution inconsistency is a bad thing really, but its the smuggling been crap that needs to be looked at here more than anything else. Its boring. Make it difficult to get drugs past customs, no fines, they see the drugs, they start pulling triggers! :) The player-customs officer idea someone suggested was also a good one, with rewards for illegal products ceased.

Also you have to be careful not to get into a position with consumables where you need 'x' amount in order to do anything, AKA, raiding in WoW where you had to spend hours grinding for healing/protection pot potions in order to do a raid. Better to leave the penalties in to stop boosters turning into this.

-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more) 
Gramacy
Lazy.
#93 - 2011-11-22 14:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Gramacy
Like others have said, removing the side effects won't improve anything or make them more popular as the main problem is still the industry and difficulty in acquiring the necessary components. I'm also worried that removing side effects while keeping the boosters nearly as powerful will affect PVP significantly.

Take a look at Synth boosters. They give you a modest advantage in PVP without any side effects (which is basically what you're trying to do here), are legal, but they're not really popular. Why is that?

Boosting them to 5% should help but if you want to make them popular then you need to make it easier to acquire components and produce them which should increase supply and bring down prices. Maybe allow them to be made in empire stations. Of course that means looking at ladar sites and industry, but that's the first thing you should be looking at anyway.

Synths should be the boosters to use for everyone while letting the stronger boosters keep their niches for people who want to be on edge.
Errastas
Fate Amenable To Change
#94 - 2011-11-22 14:21:35 UTC
Don Pellegrino wrote:
Really all this is going to do is add another must-have, like faction ammo. It's also going to break several fits and tactics.
Do you have any idea how much of an effect everyone having Motion Prediction level 9 (level 5 + Drop) is going to have on pvp and combat in general?

This is just silly, I can't see ANY benefit to this change at all. The system currently works because the low consuption fits with the low production. And no, increasing demand won't increase production significantly in this case because producers are already fighting for those BPC's.

And on top of all that, reducing the maximum potential of any of those boosters is going to harm solo pvpers that build very thought-out fits around boosters to fight outnumbered.

There is simply no benefit to this change the way it is being planned. It's a major disappointment for us solo pvpers in an otherwise great expansion.

This ^

And

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
-snip-

A load of bad game design imho.

Introducing an unnecessary and mandatory ISK sink (think of younger players too) replacing an existing and interesting game mechanic potentially ruining the overall game balance in the process -- just bad.

Think of another way of making drugs more popular. Like maybe adding new types of drugs? Maybe even special effects combining different types of drugs. With side effects of course, makes the game more interesting. Also, if slight randomness is so bad, make it a fixed side-effect perhaps.

There's an infinite amount of possibilities and you took the laziest path.
Ka Ori
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2011-11-22 14:27:38 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


*Lots of well reasoned points about boosters*


Hope that helps.


Hey CCP Ytterbium,

Thanks for that. It pretty clearly outlines the why part for making these changes.

I don't suppose you could start a thread in Features and Ideas for boosters/booster production/smuggling and check in on it from time to time aswell?

I've got lots of ideas for this having been a booster user, producer and smuggler but don't think this is the right place. And the ideas forum tends to get swamped so random ideas I've put up in the past are gone from view in a day just due to throughput there.

Hopefully proper smuggling ship(s), rigs and new industries and activities like player-policing in highsec can be created. Fun times ahead I'm sure. Cheers.
Dasrufken
Nova Ardour
#96 - 2011-11-22 14:28:42 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Unpredictability: that is due to the side-effects being randomly applied when you consume a booster, and that often hampers the very points you are trying to boost. As examples, chance of reducing shield capacity when consuming Blue Pills, missile velocity with Crash, or armor hitpoint / capacitor penalty with Exile. The list goes on, but the important point to remember here is that unpredictable mechanics on a player produced, controlled item do little to promote the usefulness of it in the long run.


So if you dont like having stuff being randomly applied, why do you allow ECM being randomly applied aswell?

They are both chance based mechanics.


Errastas wrote:
Don Pellegrino wrote:
Really all this is going to do is add another must-have, like faction ammo. It's also going to break several fits and tactics.
Do you have any idea how much of an effect everyone having Motion Prediction level 9 (level 5 + Drop) is going to have on pvp and combat in general?

This is just silly, I can't see ANY benefit to this change at all. The system currently works because the low consuption fits with the low production. And no, increasing demand won't increase production significantly in this case because producers are already fighting for those BPC's.

And on top of all that, reducing the maximum potential of any of those boosters is going to harm solo pvpers that build very thought-out fits around boosters to fight outnumbered.

There is simply no benefit to this change the way it is being planned. It's a major disappointment for us solo pvpers in an otherwise great expansion.

This ^

And

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
-snip-

A load of bad game design imho.

Introducing an unnecessary and mandatory ISK sink (think of younger players too) replacing an existing and interesting game mechanic potentially ruining the overall game balance in the process -- just bad.

Think of another way of making drugs more popular. Like maybe adding new types of drugs? Maybe even special effects combining different types of drugs. With side effects of course, makes the game more interesting. Also, if slight randomness is so bad, make it a fixed side-effect perhaps.

There's an infinite amount of possibilities and you took the laziest path.


Oh my god i have never agreed more with a forum post than this^
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#97 - 2011-11-22 14:32:06 UTC  |  Edited by: IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey folks, it seems this thread needs some attention.

-snip-

Note: Alchemist and Edge implant sets are an oversight that are being looked into. Fix will most likely not make it for Crucible release, but shortly after, so we advise you to hold on to them.

Hope that helps.


OK first off, thank you for replying, even on a topic like this we still like that you make the effort to communicate with us.

....but What are you thinking?! you seem to basically be moving to change boosters as a get-out of having to make big changes to the broken aspects of that area of the game.

The fact you completely forgot about Alchemist and Edge implant sets makes me think this is yet another rushed solution.

FIX Issue this customs agents

FIX Issues with drug acquisition (gas harvesting)

FIX Smuggling penalties and the profession as a whole

Leave the booster mechanics alone they are the one thing with that whole messed up system that actually work as intended!

You want to make them so everyone is forced to stick in a pair of strongs before a fight or be at a disadvantage. In reality they should be a last ditch and you should have to decide whether to use a strong /improved/ standard based on side effects AND price! Unpredictability is the whole point, and yes side effects should include some that go against the benefit so you have to weight up whether to use them.

Triage carriers risk injecting a mindflood / exile because they made the informed decision that the chance of getting a cap/armour penalty was outweighed by the need for more tank to last out the cycle. You are basically proposing they they all inject at the beginning of the fight because, hey may as well. Another part of the game dumbed down and fovoured against the player who simply has more ISK.

Yes boosters could have done with some changes to make them more widely used Gas + manufacture changes and smuggling changes, but the pills themselves were pretty balanced I'd say, maybe boost the gunnery/missile ones up to be inline with the tanking ones (30% for strong)


CCP leave drugs alone and fix the black market when you have the time, not some rushed garbage that no wants.
mkint
#98 - 2011-11-22 14:57:19 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
The randomness is not bad. With rl drugs there are negative side effect. It's up to the user to decide if a risk of anal leakage is worth it for clear sinuses.

If you trade side effect for addictions you've gone from an appealing gamble to mandatory equipment. Mandatory is always bad.

Production and distribution needs to change not effects. Boosters are toys of greyscale rmt friends and that is the only problem.
Edit: Eve is going to change from supers online to boosters online in the same patch. If your alliance doesn't control one of the few production sites you aren't welcome in eve. Ccp you may have made my decision for me.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#99 - 2011-11-22 15:03:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Hope that helps.

It all makes very little sense.

- Why do you think anyone should start using boosters? That's like complaining of very few pilots using deadspace gear. As already stated, boost synth up to 5% if needed, but leave top-gear as it is.

- And why would anyone need those 2-hours long effects? What's the point? Make the second skill improve the effects, too, and cut initial strengh even further if you so please, but don't leave us with yet another usuless skill. That's backstabbing. Seriously, dude, why?

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Ryans Revenge
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2011-11-22 15:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryans Revenge
Agreed with everyone else's view on the latest dev post that what you are doing is completely backwards and will not give you accurate metrics to work from at all.

I understand you are trying to do a lot of "little things" to get into this patch. With other things you have gone about adjusting them nice and slowly in the right way.

However with boosters you have got it completely backwards. Obviously the other systems (supply/customs) are harder and will take longer to change but they need to be done first. Otherwise if you then go this route you are turning them into potions rather than drugs. Please reverse these changes because it isn't going to work.

If you want to put a little change in. Adjust something small that makes transporting them easier. Like reduce the illegality and charges/fines that are currently in place.

Thanks