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america is not a democracy

Author
Lido Seahawk
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2014-04-21 13:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Lido Seahawk
Astenion wrote:


That's a perfect example of the difference between hyperbole and paranoia. No one's comin' fer yer guns. No one's literally going to kick in your door and make you do math problems. If you think for a second the NRA gives a crap about individual rights, then you belong in the aforementioned group of people.



Well, you're right, I don't think the NRA is interested in individual rights. As a past president of a NRA member council, and six years as a NRA Election Volunteer Coordinator, I know it.


Quote:
I fully support boots on the neck


And you're lecturing me on individual rights. Hmmmn,

May I have your stuff?

Lido Seahawk
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2014-04-21 13:40:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lido Seahawk
Astenion wrote:
Lido Seahawk wrote:
Here in 'murica, we used to have this really groovy set of laws affectionately know as "Jim Crow". One of the old Jim Crow laws stated that one needed to pass a literacy test before being able to vote.

So when Django goes to the poll to vote, Billy Bob throws down a Chinese newspaper and hollers "What's that say, boy?" To which Django replies, "It says negroes don't vote in Alabama!"

That's why you can't require a test for voters, much as most people would like the idea, myself included. The potential for abuse is too great.

As for forcing stupid people not to be stupid, good luck with that.


Yes, but the potential for abuse by lobbying groups and their political puppets is within reason, i.e., the NRA?

If you think making it mandatory to be literate in order to vote will all of a sudden make everyone break out in blackface and start having separate water fountains, then that's just crazy. Gay men are having babies and getting married all over the country, the south included. Passing a literacy and current events/civics exam today would be nothing like Jim Crow.



First, its technically impossible for a man to have a baby. And even if they could, I can't figure out how that's in anyway related to the topic, unless you are implying that I'm a homophobe in order to discredit my argument?

Second, a civics test would be exactly like Jim Crow, its just that instead of a race based stratification of society, you would have an intellectual/ class based stratification of society. It would be just as tragic. History is full of bad things being done to by people who thought they knew better than everyone else.

Third, yes, I have no problem with people organizing themselves in order to promote a cause or an idea. Its called free speech. Its up to the voters to decide the issues, and with them lies the ultimate responsibility. Much as I like to complain about it, its still the best system worked out so far in the history of mankind, whether I like how the voters do their job or not.

Anyway, you complain about hyperbole and paranoia in one post, and then follow it up with a post full of hyperbole and paranoia. And you seem to be getting angry. So I will leave it there. We can agree to disagree, and all that good stuff. Have fun, fly safe!

May I have your stuff?

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2014-04-21 13:42:02 UTC
Astenion wrote:
Always love Grimpak.

I have so much love in my person that it's bursting through the seams.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#64 - 2014-04-21 15:57:30 UTC
BBC?

Isn't that a media company in a country that still has a Monarchy and hereditary nobility?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#65 - 2014-04-21 17:57:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
America's issue is that it certainly IS a democracy.

Being able to rob and murder people from the anonymity of a vote, usually from behind a curtain, will have what result?

Where else do we see greed theft and murder when the perpetrator is anonymous?

Am I bugging you? Good. Time to turn the worm or bust the bubble. It's time to stop thinking you are free in place of being free.

To sooner we drop this form of collectivism (which is historically a murder machine because people will murder, even with a vote) the better.

There are only 3 votes that ever mattered:
- with your wallet
- with your feet
- with violence

The third happens after everybody has voted to take your money and corner you. And all the way down to the people who stomp on your neck, there is no "one name" to blame. It'll be called "the system" and the minions (also wearing masks in most cases to maintain the same anonymity as the voters) will claim to be just following orders.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-04-21 18:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
America's issue is that it certainly IS a democracy.

Being able to rob and murder people from the anonymity of a vote, usually from behind a curtain, will have what result?

Where else do we see greed theft and murder when the perpetrator is anonymous?

Am I bugging you? Good. Time to turn the worm or bust the bubble. It's time to stop thinking you are free in place of being free.

To sooner we drop this form of collectivism (which is historically a murder machine because people will murder, even with a vote) the better.

There are only 3 votes that ever mattered:
- with your wallet
- with your feet
- with violence

The third happens after everybody has voted to take your money and corner you. And all the way down to the people who stomp on your neck, there is no "one name" to blame. It'll be called "the system" and the minions (also wearing masks in most cases to maintain the same anonymity as the voters) will claim to be just following orders.

here's the thing tho, we're approaching "critical mass" in terms of population. as I said above, we don't have enough cake for 7 billion people, and yet people want a bigger, tastier, cake as time goes by, because hell, people always want to go to better, right? you, me, everybody else.

yes, right. planet earth called tho, she can't sustain this much people, so you better start gathering people and gtfo to another planet, or there'll be massive cullings incoming. and it will be something that is going to be self-inflicted, and before you know it, we'll be back to the dark ages.

meanhile the "system" will try to keep things running as they are, using the same policies, all for the sake of keeping everybody calm and the appearance that everything's right.

right until an angry mob knocks at your door because you have running water and they don't.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Adunh Slavy
#67 - 2014-04-21 21:20:32 UTC
Grimpak wrote:

here's the thing tho, we're approaching "critical mass" in terms of population. as I said above, we don't have enough cake for 7 billion people, and yet people want a bigger, tastier, cake as time goes by, because hell, people always want to go to better, right? you, me, everybody else.

yes, right. planet earth called tho, she can't sustain this much people, so you better start gathering people and gtfo to another planet, or there'll be massive cullings incoming. and it will be something that is going to be self-inflicted, and before you know it, we'll be back to the dark ages.


Though a rambling Malthusian statement, the middle bit is the important part, "people always want to go to better, right? you, me, everybody else." ... yep


Grimpak wrote:

meanhile the "system" will try to keep things running as they are, using the same policies, all for the sake of keeping everybody calm and the appearance that everything's right.

right until an angry mob knocks at your door because you have running water and they don't.


Well who runs the system? Not Angles or saints, in fact is run by those who tend to be attracted to power, and they want more of it, always, all the time, never enough power.

Do you trust them? Want them to have more of it?

Time to wake up from the superstition of authority.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Sodium Canine
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2014-04-21 21:35:54 UTC
Crompton Aberforth wrote:
If you don't want 'stupid' people to be able to get a licence to vote, we better write the test. Can you please provide the questions that should be included?
I'll start.

- In the 2012 New Zealand Sheep Dog Trials, how many were found guilty?


2! Greg Prince and Barry Paton.

May I have my ballot please, I want to vote for Wayne LaPierre! Pirate

My dad was a sailor on the ocean. He knows all about the ocean. What he doesn't know is why he quit being a sailor and married my mom.

Astenion
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2014-04-21 23:13:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Astenion
Lido Seahawk wrote:
Astenion wrote:
Lido Seahawk wrote:
Here in 'murica, we used to have this really groovy set of laws affectionately know as "Jim Crow". One of the old Jim Crow laws stated that one needed to pass a literacy test before being able to vote.

So when Django goes to the poll to vote, Billy Bob throws down a Chinese newspaper and hollers "What's that say, boy?" To which Django replies, "It says negroes don't vote in Alabama!"

That's why you can't require a test for voters, much as most people would like the idea, myself included. The potential for abuse is too great.

As for forcing stupid people not to be stupid, good luck with that.


Yes, but the potential for abuse by lobbying groups and their political puppets is within reason, i.e., the NRA?

If you think making it mandatory to be literate in order to vote will all of a sudden make everyone break out in blackface and start having separate water fountains, then that's just crazy. Gay men are having babies and getting married all over the country, the south included. Passing a literacy and current events/civics exam today would be nothing like Jim Crow.



First, its technically impossible for a man to have a baby. And even if they could, I can't figure out how that's in anyway related to the topic, unless you are implying that I'm a homophobe in order to discredit my argument?

Second, a civics test would be exactly like Jim Crow, its just that instead of a race based stratification of society, you would have an intellectual/ class based stratification of society. It would be just as tragic. History is full of bad things being done to by people who thought they knew better than everyone else.

Third, yes, I have no problem with people organizing themselves in order to promote a cause or an idea. Its called free speech. Its up to the voters to decide the issues, and with them lies the ultimate responsibility. Much as I like to complain about it, its still the best system worked out so far in the history of mankind, whether I like how the voters do their job or not.

Anyway, you complain about hyperbole and paranoia in one post, and then follow it up with a post full of hyperbole and paranoia. And you seem to be getting angry. So I will leave it there. We can agree to disagree, and all that good stuff. Have fun, fly safe!


Sigh.

In response to your first point:

Since you're obviously not one to think outside the box, how's this then? Gay men are BECOMING FATHERS all over the country these days with relatively little outcry, tbh. I figured you'd be able to extrapolate that I was talking about how forward-thinking the country has become, that having an exam in order to earn your right to vote wouldn't be met with torches and pitchforks and cries of sorcery, that people wouldn't automatically conjure up images of different water fountains, bus seats, etc. I guess I was wrong, at least about the extrapolation.

In response to your second point:

An intellectual stratification of society? Is a driving exam an intellectual stratification of society? If you can't pass the test, you don't get to drive. What's so outrageous about this, and why is it more outrageous to substitute driving with voting? You could also reform education, but who wants to do that? Sports are so much more fun and important! Either fix the education system or cull the ignorant at the voting booth. Actually, both should be done.

In response to your final point:

Sigh again. My hyperbole. Your paranoia.

Nevermind.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2014-04-22 00:01:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Time to wake up from the superstition of authority.

well sure, if you live in the mountains as a hermit alone and by yourself.

you see, this is the stupidest thing of them all: we want freedom. we want liberty to do our own thing, but as soon as **** goes south for any reason, we're a bunch headless chickens running around without a proper leader.


why? because we're a social species, and as far as I know, you don't survive by committee.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#71 - 2014-04-22 00:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Khergit Deserters
To a lot of political philosophers, the goal is to have both freedom and equality. Both desirable, but unfortunately they're somewhat mutually exclusive of each other. Pure freedom becomes social Darwinism, and eventually no equality. Pure equality requires regulating behaviors, and therefore limiting the individual's freedom and stifling initiative.

This freedom vs. equality thing became a topic after the big financial collapses around 2007. It seemed like the "freedom" countries such as (the U.S. and U.K.) suffered from the crisis more than the more "equality" countries (such as France and Germany). The economic highs weren't has high for the equality countries, but the lows were also a lot less drastic.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2014-04-22 00:17:06 UTC
Khergit Deserters wrote:
To a lot of political philosophers, the goal is to have both freedom and equality. Both desirable, but unfortunately they're somewhat mutually exclusive of each other. Pure freedom becomes social Darwinism, and eventually no equality. Pure equality requires regulating behaviors, and therefore limiting the individual's freedom and stifling initiative.

This freedom vs. equality thing became a topic after the big financial collapses around 2007. It seemed like the "freedom" countries such as (the U.S. and U.K.) suffered from the crisis more than the more "equality" countries (such as France and Germany). The economic highs weren't has high for the equality countries, but the lows were also a lot less drastic.



small correction, equity is a better concept than equality.

equality can sometimes be so stupid that it becomes quite unjust.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Adunh Slavy
#73 - 2014-04-22 01:05:09 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
...but as soon as **** goes south for any reason, we're a bunch headless chickens running around without a proper leader.


Why do we need a leader?

Grimpak wrote:

why? because we're a social species, and as far as I know, you don't survive by committee.


Because we're social species? kind of a non-starter isn't it? We can be social with out a leader.

"you don't survive by committee" ... which is what government is, one big committee, where by everyone tries to live off of everyone else. (have to give Basiat credit for the thought.)

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2014-04-22 07:32:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
...but as soon as **** goes south for any reason, we're a bunch headless chickens running around without a proper leader.


Why do we need a leader?

Grimpak wrote:

why? because we're a social species, and as far as I know, you don't survive by committee.


Because we're social species? kind of a non-starter isn't it? We can be social with out a leader.

"you don't survive by committee" ... which is what government is, one big committee, where by everyone tries to live off of everyone else. (have to give Basiat credit for the thought.)

the reason why we need a leader it's because we need somebody to blame in case **** goes south.

something goes wrong, and if you have a leader, well, his decisions weren't the right ones, he ****** up, it's his fault.
in the end, no matter how much good you have in you, there's this inherent "darkness" that every human has in them. Granted everybody fights this darker side of them every day, but not everybody wins, nor you can't win every day, and in those days, you'll watch another one and you'll envy him, blame him, scorn him, because it feels better, because it's easier. it wasn't you, it was him, and for a moment no matter how stupid that reasoning is, it feels right and... well, he's a leader, right? he's more exposed, right? he ****** up so he has to pay up.

it comes with the package. people will, inherently, shove responsibility to another one, even in smaller groups because there's always the need for someone to take the initiative and carry the group forward in the critical moments, because.. well, "you don't survive by committee", and that means that that person is the most exposed of all of them. you turn to him for decisions you can't do yourself, and you'll also turn to him for all the fuckups that happen.


it's human nature, and we have to live with it.


TL;DR: we will always need a scapegoat when **** goes south, and the leader-figure is the best scapegoat of them all.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Astenion
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2014-04-22 11:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Astenion
Lido Seahawk wrote:
Astenion wrote:


That's a perfect example of the difference between hyperbole and paranoia. No one's comin' fer yer guns. No one's literally going to kick in your door and make you do math problems. If you think for a second the NRA gives a crap about individual rights, then you belong in the aforementioned group of people.



Well, you're right, I don't think the NRA is interested in individual rights. As a past president of a NRA member council, and six years as a NRA Election Volunteer Coordinator, I know it.


Quote:
I fully support boots on the neck


And you're lecturing me on individual rights. Hmmmn,


No, you're lecturing me on individual rights. Do you even understand your own point? What is it with you NRA people and your inability to coherently debate?

I said that sometimes the greater good is more important than individual rights. Again, sometimes. There are obvious exceptions and only in very rare cases should rights come second. However, I think telling someone who doesn't know the difference between his ass and a hole in the ground that he needs to be more informed if he wants to be able to vote isn't a violation of rights; you should have to earn the right to vote, not be born with it just because you survive 18 years. However, you and your ilk are of the mindset that you should be allowed to be willfully ignorant and stupid and not be punished for it ("punished" by having to take a test...edumacation! Oh the horror!) because ZOMG DON'T TREAD ON ME!
Adunh Slavy
#76 - 2014-04-23 09:32:24 UTC
Grimpak wrote:

TL;DR: we will always need a scapegoat when **** goes south, and the leader-figure is the best scapegoat of them all.



Uh, no.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2014-04-23 10:21:29 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Grimpak wrote:

TL;DR: we will always need a scapegoat when **** goes south, and the leader-figure is the best scapegoat of them all.



Uh, no.

uh, yes.

seen it happen quite a few times myself.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#78 - 2014-04-23 12:34:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
Jenn aSide wrote:
BBC?

Isn't that a media company in a country that still has a Monarchy and hereditary nobility?


Yes, yes and yes.



It's not a ruling monarchy though. The queen does have the right/power to say no to a law that parliament has proposed, she very rarely does however.

The hereditary nobility still maintain their power through the House of Lords, where they ratify proposed new laws or amendments to existing ones. Those new laws or amendments come from the House of Commons, the name alone should tell you who they are meant to represent.

It's a complex system, built upon approximately 1000 years of English history.
Almost all of the major changes that have been made to our governing systems have been via invasion, civil war, rebellion and insurrection.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#79 - 2014-04-23 14:20:40 UTC
jason hill wrote:


Well all countries are screwed by a rich elite, what makes America different is that the normal people actually welcome and enjoy this state of affairs. The more corrupt they are and the more they can rip people off, the more celebrated they are. Things like controlled rolling blackouts by energy companies are examples of free wheeling entrepreneurial innovation complained about by those who didn't have the pluck to think of it first, and so on and so forth.
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2014-04-23 14:29:49 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Khergit Deserters wrote:
This is a great leap forward. Scientific methods were used, so that makes it official. Now we can say it without being accused of being Commies, hippies, or conspiracy theorists.

Well, technically, we really should wait for a second study to independently confirm the results of the first study.


Yah. I had to roll my eyes when their main method was a survey. I don't disagree with the conclusions, we now have rule by bureaucracy which tends to avail itself to elites of one stripe or another. But saying that's "science" is a pretty big stretch. How do you falsify their conclusions when they're "so basically what we think this means is..."?

America is most certainly not a pure democracy. It was originally intended as a Republic with significant components of democracy. Benjamin Franklin said in describing the government he helped create "A Republic, if you can keep it." We didn't keep it.

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!