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Too much talk about balance, not enough about pilot skill.

Author
Republican Rhino
Doomheim
#1 - 2011-11-15 01:19:44 UTC
Wanna say first that i'm p chill with the balance in the game atm, there's a lot of really good ships to be flyin and stuff. Its been a bit since I were last in the game cuz of my deployment to Iraq (civilian contract btw, not military - mo props to the guys in uniforms), but back then I didn't see all that much about this imbalance. PPL has been flying abaddon fleet tactics since I was flying rifters and that has not changed. PPL has been flying ravens and pve missions and that has not changed.

What I really wonder at is how come everyone is now wanting minmatar to get nerfed? The only stuff that made minmatar as good as they were was and is the players skill as a pilot. Here are the facts:

a. Players with more skills fly minmatar
b. Players need more skills to fly minmatar
c. Minmatar ships need better tactics to win, lik shooting in falloff and staying out of scram
d. Minmatar ships have the least tank of all races and usually cannot fit a good tank

SO what is the deal here atm? People want the minmatar to be all slow and easy kills for their other race ships or do they want minmatar to have crappy weapons that use cap and can't win against gallente? The minmatar ships already need more skill to fly well then how come they should also be less effective than other races ships?

I am real glad to see that Liang is still posting, hopefully he can give a fair update about what is going on cuz I hope CCP isn't getting these bad ideas into there heads.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2011-11-15 01:23:10 UTC
Republican Rhino wrote:
Wanna say first that i'm p chill with the balance in the game atm, there's a lot of really good ships to be flyin and stuff. Its been a bit since I were last in the game cuz of my deployment to Iraq (civilian contract btw, not military - mo props to the guys in uniforms), but back then I didn't see all that much about this imbalance. PPL has been flying abaddon fleet tactics since I was flying rifters and that has not changed. PPL has been flying ravens and pve missions and that has not changed.

What I really wonder at is how come everyone is now wanting minmatar to get nerfed? The only stuff that made minmatar as good as they were was and is the players skill as a pilot. Here are the facts:

a. Players with more skills fly minmatar
b. Players need more skills to fly minmatar
c. Minmatar ships need better tactics to win, lik shooting in falloff and staying out of scram
d. Minmatar ships have the least tank of all races and usually cannot fit a good tank

SO what is the deal here atm? People want the minmatar to be all slow and easy kills for their other race ships or do they want minmatar to have crappy weapons that use cap and can't win against gallente? The minmatar ships already need more skill to fly well then how come they should also be less effective than other races ships?

I am real glad to see that Liang is still posting, hopefully he can give a fair update about what is going on cuz I hope CCP isn't getting these bad ideas into there heads.

honestly, ive never had problems fighting rifters, and i fly primarily punishers and harbys... (would've totally gotten kills for them aswell, but im too goddamn lazy to go all the way abck to highsec/amarr to buy a freakin scram and web skillbooks)
Jitas Prostitute
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-11-15 01:30:30 UTC
once they get rid of warp stabs in the new release, I think it should even itself out

I always have Sun Tzu and General Patton quotes close by when I PvP in this internet spaceship video game, eve online.

Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#4 - 2011-11-15 01:31:46 UTC
You are correct to certain extent in that there are people who jump into bandwagon, but some of the balance issues have been brought by people who can fly all ships, and fron experience can say that sone ships have no advantage to offer while having all the disadvantages. I can fly all sub caps with near max skills and i have soft spot for gallente, and pretty much the only reason i fly them is for the sheer fun factor of blaster boats and drone pwnage, not really for its efficiency. Having said that i do not like the idea of nerfing minmatar - their ships are well balanced and work well, u
Its just that gallente needs a buff, which i wont get into now as there are already enough threads about this and cco is already looking at the issue, rightly so.
Republican Rhino
Doomheim
#5 - 2011-11-15 01:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Republican Rhino
Honestly i dont get the gallente need buffs thread thing at all either. There are CTA all the time in my corp and half the ppl x with a gallente ship when they want to, like i said there is a lot of diversity with us and so we dont fotm.. The big problem i have with gallente is there carriers are just too good at dps and i think is going to be time to balance drones (they dont need any player skills since they are automatic) if gallente have buffs this expansion like everyone says.

WHat i notice is a lot of newb players like gallente and caldari because they are easy to fly and there dps is automatic like missiles and drones. They eventually move up to higher skill ships in amarr and minmatar because those ships reward good players for being smarter than the rest.
A'Brantox Foson
A'Brantox Foson Corporation
#6 - 2011-11-15 01:59:44 UTC
yea, wtf.. i whole heartedly enjoy flying everything I fly. One of the reasons is because I know how to fit the damned things. Only whinners, nitpickers and people who have watched too much film 2011 w/ jonathan ross moan.

Everyone is a critique.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#7 - 2011-11-15 02:05:22 UTC
Republican Rhino wrote:
WHat i notice is a lot of newb players like gallente and caldari because they are easy to fly and there dps is automatic like missiles and drones. They eventually move up to higher skill ships in amarr and minmatar because those ships reward good players for being smarter than the rest.


I am detecting just a hint of bias from the OP, but this is a bit rediculous. I must assume you're trolling at this point.
Nor Tzestu
Dos Pollos Hermanos
Ghosts from the Abyss
#8 - 2011-11-15 02:20:53 UTC
Balance isn't terrible. As someone who fly's mainly Gallente/Amarr I don't need to be fotm. Just competitive. And in some hulls Gallente is very competitive, the Taranis is a beast of a ceptor. The Vexor and Thorax are 2 of the best t1 cruisers you can fly. The Myrm is competitive with any BC in the game. That said most of the reason these ships are "good" is in spite of the current hybrid suck, not because of it.

My best observation of why Gallente needs a boost is watching the AT's. These are dedicated teams of people able to fly anything they choose, fit in any way they can possibly come up with. And the VAST majority of successful teams employed the Matar rush. Darkside put up a nice fight with it's Amarr based teams, and sure you had some Tengu love in lots of the early fights. Look at what the Winners used to rip through the competition though. Sure pilot skill played a HUGE factor in it, but all the same they all ran Matar centric teams once they stopped the lolfleets. I have no problem with a single race's ships having an edge one way or the other. Having the best of everything though? Seems a bit much to me.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-11-15 02:48:55 UTC
Republican Rhino wrote:
snip


The idea that Minmatar need "more skill" to fly is absurd. Flying a Alphafleet Maelstrom is no more difficult than flying a Hellcat Abaddon. Think kiting with a Vagabond is hard? Try kiting with a paper thin nano-Zealot. Lachs require the exact same forethought and situational awareness to be effective in gangs as Huginns.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#10 - 2011-11-15 03:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Hybrid ships currently have a harder time fitting weapons than any other in the game.

Gallente hybrid ships, being primarily armor tanked, have a harder time getting the enemy into their effective range than any other ship type in the game. Caldari hybrid ships are a bit better at it, but have no damage bonus, and long range snipers are currently almost useless.

Blasters with no tracking bonus currently cannot track properly at their own optimal range, unless both ships are sitting still or close to it.

Blasters currently have about half the effective range of the other two short range turrets, but only 10% more damage, if that.

Railguns currently have no useful role that isn't better filled by either lasers or artillery.

Blasters have no role that is not better filled by autocannons.




Minmatar ships typically do not have a significantly worse tank than other races, by virtue of their weapons leaving MUCH more room for fitting than the other three races. (Though admittedly Amarr and Caldari to pull ahead when buffer is of great importance)

Projectile ships certainly do not take more skill to use than the other races. There's a reason that the Rifter, Dramiel, Cynabal, Machariel, Rupture, Hurricane, Thrasher, Maelstrom, Vagabond, Vargur, Jaguar, Sabre, and Firetail are all considered either the most generally useful ship in their specific market segment, or close enough to the top that it's hard to call. And it sure as hell isn't because the other ships take less skill to use.





edit/rant: Actually, at the moment, gallente hybrid boats take a significantly higher amount of pilot skill than any other type, because to win, you HAVE to be the one controlling range, against ships that are almost always going to be faster than you. Caldari and Minmatar, the primary pvp opponents you'll see, are usually shield tanked and thus inherently faster, but even the armor matar ships are still faster than armor gallente ships.

The one really good standout PVP ship that gallente have is the Taranis, and it fares better with a HULL tank than an armor tank, ffs.

thhief ghabmoef

Goose99
#11 - 2011-11-15 04:34:06 UTC
So many alts agreeing with themselves. So you don't see the difference between Winmatar and gallante atm... are we playing the same game here or are you using couple years old build?Roll
David Clausewitz
David Clausewitz Corporation
#12 - 2011-11-15 05:08:46 UTC
Stop trying to defend projectile turrets, they're OP.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-11-15 05:54:19 UTC
One ship has 600dps.
Another ship has 400dps.
Otherwise, the ships are identical.

Balance is important.