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Unreasonably low cruiser DPS?

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Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#1 - 2014-04-18 04:45:55 UTC
I am a fairly new cruiser pilot, with just 2-3 weeks since I started using them. However, I have my skills to level 3-4 on most of the related missile skills (I am flying a caracal). I do have level 2 in heavy missiles, but even when I create EFT fits to get the greatest dps possible (arbalest rapid light launchers (I have level 4 in light missiles), 4x T2 BCUs, missile rigs, etc.), I still end up with a measly 194 dps, far short of the 300 dps most other posts give as an average for cruisers? And this is my maximum theoretical dps: my current iteration that I use only does ~70 dps (to my defense I've put most of the focus on keeping a stable cap with an AB and an active shield tank). But can someone explain why even with my skills my maximum possible dps is so low?
-thanks
Tajic Kaundur
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#2 - 2014-04-18 04:47:58 UTC
Caracals, and really any missile ship, get lower than average DPS on paper.

But keep in mind missiles don't miss. Yes, you can outrange missiles, or just flat out kite missiles if you're fast enough- but you can't miss with them the way a turret can.

So while you might see less DPS than desired on the fitting page, you're actually probably getting about the same DPS as a turret ship.
Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#3 - 2014-04-18 04:56:57 UTC
Thanks, that makes sense. My current caracal fit has a range of 60+ km too, which combined with my ab makes it a deadly sniper. And it's impressive shields mean that I can take down most that get within range before they kill me. I guess that wherever a weakness may be found, a strength can be found elsewhere
Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#4 - 2014-04-18 05:09:45 UTC
In retrospect I look like I'm bragging like a **** in that last post. Sorry about that.

Anyways, I found out with faction ammo and drones I get to 241 dps which is far better

One thing that is confusing me though is that a corp mate who is about as far along as I am, but with gallente cruisers (I think a vexor) only has 10 more dps than me, all of which I could make up for with drones . Why is his so low?

Also why was there only 4 dps difference between my ulti rapid light missile launcher fit (am level 4 with light missiles) and my ulti heavy assault missile launcher fit (level 0 with HAMs) and should I maybe start to train for and use HAMs?

-thanks again
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-04-18 05:24:08 UTC
HAMs are good against larger targets, rapid lights are better against smaller targets. (Target speed & size modify missile damage.) As to which is better... It depends on what you're shooting at. HAMS will show better paper DPS, but they have problems applying it to small targets.

It's really hard to say about your friend, as we obviously don't have info about what his fit is.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#6 - 2014-04-18 05:30:23 UTC
What Tajic said is pretty much on par.

Adding to that; people tend to a) use all lvl 5 skills when talking about numbers, b) brag to sound awesome and c) spout numbers without understanding how this game works. 200 dps for a newbie in a pve caracal is just fine, don't worry.
Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#7 - 2014-04-18 05:49:07 UTC
Yes, 200 for a newbie in a caracal would be fine, but that was assuming I was only trying for straight up dps. In my current fit I get well under 100. Also I realize that using heavy launchers wa idiotic for l2s, especially when given my skills and sometimes reckless tactics (Although I only use those tactics because of my impatience and strong, cap stable active shield tank).
Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#8 - 2014-04-18 06:20:12 UTC
Hmm not sure where I was going there with my talk about heavy missiles. It's 2:30 am. I'm really tired. I should probably go to sleep before I say anything too stupid.

-night
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#9 - 2014-04-18 06:27:19 UTC
You can use heavies just fine but you really need to fit rigor rigs to help them apply their damage (anyone telling you to fit purger rigs has been living under a rock in regards to mechanics changes or is just an idiot).

For lvl 2 missions against Guristas just use a version of this fit, replace with named/T2 where you can. Against other factions simply swap out the resists.

[Caracal, Newbie]
Damage Control I
Ballistic Control System I
Ballistic Control System I
Ballistic Control System I

10MN Afterburner I
Large Shield Extender I
Thermic Dissipation Field I
Kinetic Deflection Field I
Kinetic Deflection Field I

'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Scourge Heavy Missile
'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Scourge Heavy Missile
'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Scourge Heavy Missile
'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Scourge Heavy Missile
'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

Hobgoblin I x2
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#10 - 2014-04-18 10:55:15 UTC
Tajic Kaundur wrote:
Caracals, and really any missile ship, get lower than average DPS on paper.

But keep in mind missiles don't miss. Yes, you can outrange missiles, or just flat out kite missiles if you're fast enough- but you can't miss with them the way a turret can.

So while you might see less DPS than desired on the fitting page, you're actually probably getting about the same DPS as a turret ship.




They also don't get wrecking hits...


Missiles apply just as well as turrets, given the relevant application mods
Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#11 - 2014-04-18 14:07:41 UTC
Wouldn't it make more sense to just use rapid light missiles instead of heavy missiles with that many rigor catalysts? (Rigs have stacking penalties, right?) in any case, do I still need to use rigor catalysts to fully apply dps even to other cruisers?

Also, I used to be very interested in using damage reduction modules, but I always find that they aren't predictable, and often lack in strength.

I find that my current fit works perfectly fine for shield tanking:
(Mid, low, and rigs only)

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Shield Boost Amplifier 1
Shield Boost Amplifier 1
Medium C5-L Emergency Shield Overload 1
Experimental 10MN Afterburner 1

Type-D Power Core Modification: Capacitor Power Relay
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay 1
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay 1
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay 1

Medium Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard 1
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit 1

This fit allows for an AFB and a strong shield booster to be used simultaniousl
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#12 - 2014-04-18 14:23:23 UTC
Not all modules or rigs have stacking penalties and in this case rigors don't get penalties. Rapid light can be used but generally are more annoying to use due to reload time; they're for burst damage, not continuous dps (which is what you're looking for in missions). It might be that in specific situations you'll have enough ammo to kill everything before the need to reload but unless you specifically know this to be the case, just don't bother.

Your tank is all over the place; it has no resists so you get hit for full damage (meaning you have to negate all of it one way or another) and then you're mixing both HP and active tanking modules and to make it worse you make up for your cap issues fitting your lows for of mods that a) mess up your shield booster effect and b) take slots you should have used for damage mods. Simply put; it's a **** fit :P

In lvl 2 missions you really don't have to tank much at all, simply having a whole bunch of hit points and some resists is more than enough. I highly doubt that the majority of missions would even get your shield down to 80%, if at all.
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-04-18 16:51:56 UTC
Drew Lorentz wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to just use rapid light missiles instead of heavy missiles with that many rigor catalysts? (Rigs have stacking penalties, right?) in any case, do I still need to use rigor catalysts to fully apply dps even to other cruisers?

Also, I used to be very interested in using damage reduction modules, but I always find that they aren't predictable, and often lack in strength.

I find that my current fit works perfectly fine for shield tanking:
(Mid, low, and rigs only)

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Shield Boost Amplifier 1
Shield Boost Amplifier 1
Medium C5-L Emergency Shield Overload 1
Experimental 10MN Afterburner 1

Type-D Power Core Modification: Capacitor Power Relay
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay 1
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay 1
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay 1

Medium Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard 1
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit 1

This fit allows for an AFB and a strong shield booster to be used simultaniousl


Gregor put it bluntly, so I won't cover his points except to say, if you want to up your DPS, you need to put on modules at will up your DPS. Ballistic control systems are what you need to fit, rather than the capacitor power relay.

If I were you, I'd switch a few things:
Drop both boost amps for shield hardeners
Drop your shield extender for a cap recharger
Drop all of your current lows for a mix of power diagnostic systems and ballistic control systems, based on what you need your cap to do.
Keep your rigs, but if I'm right you have room for another. In this case maybe a rigor, maybe another cap or shield rig would be appropriate.

I can remember when I was in your shoes and tried to tank missions....even level 2 missions...without hardeners. It just doesn't work. Hardeners will be your best friend. Even if your boost goes up with amps, it can't match the the relative damage reduction that hardeners can give.

Hope this helps!!

Cedric
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#14 - 2014-04-18 19:40:14 UTC
Rapid lights are a pvp weapon.
Heavy missiles for pve
Hams for pvp (mostly).

So long as you keep this simple law in mind your success rate will go up.

Heavy missiles have the same relative dps as a light missile corax - they're simply not that good anymore. They also lose out to cruise missiles once transitioning to level 4s. HAMs get most of their dps through high rate of fire - in a mission - where isk efficiency matters - you won't want to use HAM use HML instead as they have a much higher volley damage.

I have perfect missile skills and only ever use HML in fringe circumstances and often only on one of my cerberus ships. If you're serious about missiles then get a cerb as they can 1-slot tank and have steep dps with any missile system olus they negate the major flaws of HAMs.

Oh and last of all - don't buy or try to fly a ship you can't competently fit. Eg don't buy a raven unless you have cruise missiles and at least t2 tank. L4 missions are kind of deadly to the first timer who often enters a mission in sub par equipment. Also I cannot stress how valuable precision cruise missiles are - they should be a priority train. If you are like me and fly typhoons then T2 cruise missiles are a stipulated requirement for a great many reasons.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#15 - 2014-04-18 20:20:35 UTC
Don't bother trying to use a cruiser for L2 missions. Just use a Corax with light missiles and rock everything from the warpin.
Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#16 - 2014-04-19 00:10:00 UTC
Cedric: only twice has my shield even gotten below the max recharge rate (33%), and it has yet to break. In both of those cases I was still using the lowest level shield modules (medium shield recharger 1, large shield recharger 1, etc.)


Caleb: wouldn't the damage lost using Heavy missiles due to sig radius, explosion speed, and enemy health regen between volleys end up making heavy missiles more expensive to use?

Also a Cerberus is way out of the quest - I probably haven't made enough Isk since I started playing (almost a year ago, with a break from July to March) to buy even a caracal; I got mine for free from a wealthy corpmate who had an extra one :P

I have the money and skills to make a competent fit! The only reason my fit is so idiotic is that I am incompetent :P
Why else would I make this this thread? :P (and why else would I use so damn many :P emoticons? I really am dumb)
Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#17 - 2014-04-19 00:16:13 UTC
And oh, Chris, I was using a corax for mission running as they were cheaper, I had much higher skills with it, and I could run missions far faster. I stopped using them after I lost one too many, and was given my caracal for free by a corp mate
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#18 - 2014-04-19 00:20:21 UTC
Tajic Kaundur wrote:
Caracals, and really any missile ship, get lower than average DPS on paper.

But keep in mind missiles don't miss. Yes, you can outrange missiles, or just flat out kite missiles if you're fast enough- but you can't miss with them the way a turret can.

So while you might see less DPS than desired on the fitting page, you're actually probably getting about the same DPS as a turret ship.


LOL

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-04-19 05:38:47 UTC
Drew Lorentz wrote:
Cedric: only twice has my shield even gotten below the max recharge rate (33%), and it has yet to break. In both of those cases I was still using the lowest level shield modules (medium shield recharger 1, large shield recharger 1, etc.)


I have the money and skills to make a competent fit! The only reason my fit is so idiotic is that I am incompetent :P
Why else would I make this this thread? :P (and why else would I use so damn many :P emoticons? I really am dumb)


I'm not trying to be an A-Hole here, but why are you worried about your max shield regen when you have an active tank? My mission fits regularly get to or below the 33% mark... then I turn my repper on and fix it all. Not to mention it takes half the mission to take enough damage to even get it there.

Perma-run tanks are nice to have, but not a necessity... and certainly shouldn't be one for Level 2 missions. If you ever plan to move up to 3's and 4's, you need to learn about Hardeners, capacitor boosters and a DPS-Tank. If you want to derp around w/ lvl 2's and a mediocre fit, then go ahead.

In the meantime, just give my idea a try. I'd bet you 10M isk that you'll be pleased :)

Cedric
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#20 - 2014-04-19 09:46:27 UTC
Drew Lorentz wrote:
Cedric: only twice has my shield even gotten below the max recharge rate (33%), and it has yet to break. In both of those cases I was still using the lowest level shield modules (medium shield recharger 1, large shield recharger 1, etc.)


Caleb: wouldn't the damage lost using Heavy missiles due to sig radius, explosion speed, and enemy health regen between volleys end up making heavy missiles more expensive to use?

Also a Cerberus is way out of the quest - I probably haven't made enough Isk since I started playing (almost a year ago, with a break from July to March) to buy even a caracal; I got mine for free from a wealthy corpmate who had an extra one :P

I have the money and skills to make a competent fit! The only reason my fit is so idiotic is that I am incompetent :P
Why else would I make this this thread? :P (and why else would I use so damn many :P emoticons? I really am dumb)


RLMLs are great for level 2 missions.

With respect to your tank, NPCs do predictable damage types; eg Guristas do ~80% kinetic and ~20% thermal DPS. So dropping one of your boost amps for a T1 Kinetic shield hardener would increase your passive tank by 40% when you're fighting Guristas rats. Other pirate types have their own damage profiles, but most of them have a main damage type and a secondary one. See here for lots and lots of specific info: http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=HomePage

Additionally, always remember that Dead Rats Do No DPS. Fitting a single T2 ballistic control unit would increase your DPS by over 20%. This would allow you to kill the rats more quickly, which means that you can reduce the incoming DPS more quickly, which means that you do not need as much tank and also has the happy side effect of increasing your income.

For L2s, your Caracal should Ideally be fit something like this (use meta modules where you can't use T2):

Highs: 5x RLML II Launchers
Meds: 10MN AB II, Large Shield Extender II, Adaptive Invulnerability Field II, and then a rat-specific hardner (Kinetic for Guristas, EM for Sansha, Thermal for Serpentis, etc etc)
Lows: 3x Ballistic Control System IIs, Damage Control II
Rigs: 3x Rigors

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
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