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Corporation Lite, High-Sec Corps

Author
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-04-18 00:28:37 UTC
Hi, one moment, starting fire protection systems, upgrading flame suit.




So, my basic idea.

I think EVE needs another step in the game to breakup the negative angle learning cliff and give new players a chance to form groups, create an identity and build up some assets in a safer (but not safe) structure than is currently available in game.

Defined.

A new class of corporation.

Benefits:

-Can not be war-decced.
-In game supported group play
-Corporate hangers, contracts, tax, in-game mail, calendar, etc.
-something else?

Disadvantages:

-Can not war-dec
-Can not anchor or put any corp assets in space
-Can not have offices outside of highsec
-Pays a flat tax on all bounties, market transactions, reprocessing to Concord (other NPC) for War-Dec protection.
-Still open to Awoxing, Scamming, Corp Theft and such.
-Other restrictions to make sure Corp Lite is at a competitive disadvantage to regular corporations.

Errata:

-Can make a one way change to a regular corp status, while keeping identity. Can never change back.

Usefulness:

Basically restated from above, I believe EVE has gotten to the point where new players and new groups of players need new tools and/or systems so that they can form up and work their way to meaningful players in different aspects in EVE.

The established players, groups, and such at this time can literally force players or groups out of game. There are multiple reports of this happening. If we want EVE to grow we need new groups and new players have a way to learn the game and in its mechanics in a safer than current way so that they can participate and experience the full breadth of EVE when they are ready to handle it.


If anyone in CCP reads this I would really appreciate a "hello i read this"

I will be out of the loop for 3 days but am hopeful for a meaningful discussion about this.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#2 - 2014-04-18 00:36:43 UTC
I find the only thing which needs to be done is to give more love to the war dec mechanics make it more a war and not "Tax" to gank free.
Daoden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-04-18 00:45:41 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
I find the only thing which needs to be done is to give more love to the war dec mechanics make it more a war and not "Tax" to gank free.

I say when a corp/alliance is at war they cannot use locator agents for their WTs. Make it a little bit harder to track people.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4 - 2014-04-18 01:14:32 UTC
Daoden wrote:
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
I find the only thing which needs to be done is to give more love to the war dec mechanics make it more a war and not "Tax" to gank free.

I say when a corp/alliance is at war they cannot use locator agents for their WTs. Make it a little bit harder to track people.


And then the moment when he realizes that neutral alts exist.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5 - 2014-04-18 01:18:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Most of what u want can be achieved by making a chat channel and mailing list for u and ur friends. and the idea of a shared calender group that ur friends can join sounds good, ill +1 that. that said...

If ur ready to start working with other players, ur ready to start being attacked by other players. I dnt like the idea of an 'easy mode'

The nature of this game is about player interactions, both friendly and hostile. If u leave because of how another player has interacted with u, then this is NOT the game for u. I cannot stress that enough. No one was ever 'forced' out the game, they left by their own volition because they discovered the game was DESIGNED in a way that meant other players could interact with them in a way they didnt like. No one grabbed their hand and clicked the unsubscribe button.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-04-18 01:28:37 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Most of what u want can be achieved by making a chat channel and mailing list for u and ur friends. and the idea of a shared calender group that ur friends can join sounds good, ill +1 that. that said...

If ur ready to start working with other players, ur ready to start being attacked by other players. I dnt like the idea of an 'easy mode'

The nature of this game is about player interactions, both friendly and hostile. If u leave because of how another player has interacted with u, then this is NOT the game for u. I cannot stress that enough. No one was ever 'forced' out the game, they left by their own volition because they discovered the game was DESIGNED in a way that meant other players could interact with them than they didnt like. No one grabbed their hand and clicked the unsubscribe button.




I think there needs to be more than a chat channel obviously. I think the game needs the mechanics in the game not out of game to support group play better if it wants to grow.

I believe your comments about the nature of the game reflect the general attitude of the majority of people who POST about eve and interact on out of game, forums, blogs, etc.

However I do NOT think this is a sustainable model for EVE. I think that without new tools or stepping stones to lower the learning curve and give some protection to new players and especially new player groups created from in-game interaction that the new source of content (prey) of the established players groups will dry up. EVE may not be dying but it certainly is not growing as quickly as it could be. While still preserving its harsh dark universe.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#7 - 2014-04-18 01:43:11 UTC
chat channels, mailing lists ARE in the game.

but eve has grown in subscriptions every year. what suggests to u that it is unsustainable? new players still join and stay. Players dnt only prey on new players, they also prey on older players. and not all new players are prey, some become predators very quickly.

u have an opinion that its not growing as fast as it could be. based on what?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2014-04-18 02:02:29 UTC
The PCU records mostly. And the fact that I think a much larger population of the game has extra accounts now, as a percentage than earlier in the games history. Especially before Plex was introduced.

The growth of EVE also includes China which is good for CCP but not necessarily the same as good for Tranquility.

Based on the blogs I've read I believe that Tranquility probably has less actual people playing it that it has in the past. Not counting the spike after B-R5RB.



Question for you. Do you think this change if implemented would grow subscriptions or not? why?
Cekle Skyscales
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-04-18 02:36:54 UTC
Why not instead start players off in no corporation at all with a 25% income tax?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#10 - 2014-04-18 02:58:43 UTC
not.

eve is designed as it is. players are attracted to the HTFU, risk/reward, player interaction focussed philosophies, it fills a niche that no other game does and thats why players who like that niche come to this game. its main player base, alts or not, have stayed because of these design philosophies. Sometimes other players come, try it out, and decide they dnt like it. and u know what? thats ok. Its not a game for everyone.

look at other MMO's that changed the essence of their gameplay to better suit ppl who didnt like their original design. they lose the majority of their player base (who had signed up and stayed just because of the original philosophies) and the game dies out. The words 'u cant keep everyone happy' arent repeated through human history countless times for no reason

The idea boils down to:
Even though EVE is a highly successful and unique game because of its design Philosophy. Lets compromise that philosophy and its uniqueness to accommodate the ppl who dnt like this game. Its never worked for any other MMO, but what the heck.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Daoden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-04-18 03:26:38 UTC
Cekle Skyscales wrote:
Why not instead start players off in no corporation at all with a 25% income tax?

so since they are not in a corp they tax themselves 25%??
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#12 - 2014-04-18 04:06:43 UTC
If I tax myself 25% ... where does the money go? Back into my wallet? Is that even a tax?
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-04-18 10:27:02 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
not.

eve is designed as it is. players are attracted to the HTFU, risk/reward, player interaction focussed philosophies, it fills a niche that no other game does and thats why players who like that niche come to this game. its main player base, alts or not, have stayed because of these design philosophies. Sometimes other players come, try it out, and decide they dnt like it. and u know what? thats ok. Its not a game for everyone.

look at other MMO's that changed the essence of their gameplay to better suit ppl who didnt like their original design. they lose the majority of their player base (who had signed up and stayed just because of the original philosophies) and the game dies out. The words 'u cant keep everyone happy' arent repeated through human history countless times for no reason

The idea boils down to:
Even though EVE is a highly successful and unique game because of its design Philosophy. Lets compromise that philosophy and its uniqueness to accommodate the ppl who dnt like this game. Its never worked for any other MMO, but what the heck.


While this is probably close to the reasons you were attracted to the game is this all the reasons?

Your arguments seems like a simplification and seems to be overstating the impact I think this change would have.

For me personally and for others I've played with. The idea of a single shard, game where consequences follow your actions also appealed to me. However when I started. I started to play a space game, explore the universe, build up a mini-empire. interact with the in game economy. I did not want or try to play the shoot'em in the face part of PvP for over a year.

I didn't think I had the skills and I know I didn't have the means to make isk to actively support PvP loses. My original character stayed in Highsec corps for quite a while. This character even stayed in highsec for a year and a half before going out and shooting people. I don't have any impressive PvP numbers. I don't have the time really to actively play this game do to a host of RL reasons atm. I do love PvP and have never gotten the rush from playing a game like I have in EVE its almost as good as skydiving and almost as scary as being shot at.

And I want more people to have that chance. Now while I don't get to play much these days I do read a ton. I can do this in my slow times at work and through out my day. I have a fair idea of the state of null-sec, the trails of pirates, the few mechanics in FW that need tweaking, and I have read a ton of the griefing that players do to new players and highsec players for their own amusement. Most of which involves forcing their will on another player, for "fun" and profit. Usually not so much profit.

There are a lot of ways players can protect themselves from the evil characters out there. And I think most of them will have to learn the hard way. I don't think most people who try this game out come in well read about it, to their determent. However even some who come in knowing what to expect get eaten alive in the crib because they can be.

Though this leaves us with an adaptive, realitively intellegent player base, who also happen to be stubborn or just very lucky and or obscure. I don't think EVE has to go from complete protection of a starter system, to some protection for solo players in an NPC corp, to wolves being able to break up social groups just because they can.

I think in highsec the mechanic that is currently most used to ruin the game for others is war-decs. Hence my proposal in the OP. Though if you read the whole post it should be clear that I don't think protection from war-decs shouldn't come without heavy consequences.

I still think that players who are to trusting should be able to be awoxed, ganked, thieved, etc. But I think the learning curve on forming a stable group is to high for new players in EVE. Though I think CCP should do its due diligence to make the whole corp roles much easier to understand and use to prevent some of the dumbest thefts, and awoxes.

I do think its a little ironic that I am arguing about better tools and options for multiplayer corporations with a player in a one-man corp thought.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#14 - 2014-04-18 11:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kethry Avenger wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
not.

eve is designed as it is. players are attracted to the HTFU, risk/reward, player interaction focussed philosophies, it fills a niche that no other game does and thats why players who like that niche come to this game. its main player base, alts or not, have stayed because of these design philosophies. Sometimes other players come, try it out, and decide they dnt like it. and u know what? thats ok. Its not a game for everyone.

look at other MMO's that changed the essence of their gameplay to better suit ppl who didnt like their original design. they lose the majority of their player base (who had signed up and stayed just because of the original philosophies) and the game dies out. The words 'u cant keep everyone happy' arent repeated through human history countless times for no reason

The idea boils down to:
Even though EVE is a highly successful and unique game because of its design Philosophy. Lets compromise that philosophy and its uniqueness to accommodate the ppl who dnt like this game. Its never worked for any other MMO, but what the heck.


While this is probably close to the reasons you were attracted to the game is this all the reasons?

Your arguments seems like a simplification and seems to be overstating the impact I think this change would have.

For me personally and for others I've played with. The idea of a single shard, game where consequences follow your actions also appealed to me. However when I started. I started to play a space game, explore the universe, build up a mini-empire. interact with the in game economy. I did not want or try to play the shoot'em in the face part of PvP for over a year.

I didn't think I had the skills and I know I didn't have the means to make isk to actively support PvP loses. My original character stayed in Highsec corps for quite a while. This character even stayed in highsec for a year and a half before going out and shooting people. I don't have any impressive PvP numbers. I don't have the time really to actively play this game do to a host of RL reasons atm. I do love PvP and have never gotten the rush from playing a game like I have in EVE its almost as good as skydiving and almost as scary as being shot at.

And I want more people to have that chance. Now while I don't get to play much these days I do read a ton. I can do this in my slow times at work and through out my day. I have a fair idea of the state of null-sec, the trails of pirates, the few mechanics in FW that need tweaking, and I have read a ton of the griefing that players do to new players and highsec players for their own amusement. Most of which involves forcing their will on another player, for "fun" and profit. Usually not so much profit.

There are a lot of ways players can protect themselves from the evil characters out there. And I think most of them will have to learn the hard way. I don't think most people who try this game out come in well read about it, to their determent. However even some who come in knowing what to expect get eaten alive in the crib because they can be.

Though this leaves us with an adaptive, realitively intellegent player base, who also happen to be stubborn or just very lucky and or obscure. I don't think EVE has to go from complete protection of a starter system, to some protection for solo players in an NPC corp, to wolves being able to break up social groups just because they can.

I think in highsec the mechanic that is currently most used to ruin the game for others is war-decs. Hence my proposal in the OP. Though if you read the whole post it should be clear that I don't think protection from war-decs shouldn't come without heavy consequences.

I still think that players who are to trusting should be able to be awoxed, ganked, thieved, etc. But I think the learning curve on forming a stable group is to high for new players in EVE. Though I think CCP should do its due diligence to make the whole corp roles much easier to understand and use to prevent some of the dumbest thefts, and awoxes.

I do think its a little ironic that I am arguing about better tools and options for multiplayer corporations with a player in a one-man corp thought.


The current war dec mechanic benefits those who take advantage of its facilities and loopholes And those who do not are either not benefiting or suffering.

The responses you receive will be based on which side of the fence the poster sits.

Major changes in attitude and availability of developer time need to occur before this will be actioned, probably best put the effort into a complete rebuild of corporation and alliance mechanics with the whole wardec Thing being reworked at the same time, otherwise it is a plaster on a plaster on a patch, with a crutch for good measure. I am not denigrating your intentions or suggestions in any way, but Unfortunately you will find you are banging your head against a brick wall. Sad

Hopefully it will all get done someday.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-04-18 11:26:49 UTC
Even if CCP just takes my idea and runs with it, I don't think it is going to happen tomorrow.

I would think they would work it in to the Corp Roles and Alliance changes, that keep getting talked about. Probably this winter or next year.

I think the idea of adding steps to game with consequences but with some form of protective factors, needs to be done whether it is this idea or something else.

If all the prey get killed off the hunters will eventually leave to.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#16 - 2014-04-18 11:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Dai is the only char i have in a one man corp. Luhya Saho is another char of mine i dnt mind revealing if u must judge. Despite Dai's solitary corp status, he is by far the most social char i have, proving that u dnt need a corp to play with others.

Most of ur problem seems to be young unkowledgable players, getting decced and not being able to do anything about it. But the reason most cant do anything is more than likely because they've joined a smaller corp lead by an incompetent or negligent CEO, or worse, they've been playing for a few weeks and thought they'd start their own corp. With barely the knowledge and resources to play the game, of course they are going to get crushed by their first war dec.

I recommend new players seek out more established player corps with a thriving playerbase like Eve uni, RvB, Brave Newbies etc etc. Then see that dreaded war dec becoming a huge learning experience as their fellow players take them under their wing and show them whats what.

And not everyone leaves when they get decced an shot up. When i joined a corp i didnt even realise was in a war dec and got jumped on by a ship twice my size, i was sent home in my pod. I left the corp soon after, but not because i had been shot, because the corp simply wasnt there. No one was online for a couple days, i moved on and eventually found a corp that i spent the next year and a half with, still dying, but having fun.

so in a nutshell: Players can play in groups without corps. Protection from war decs already comes with consequences. If ppl join bad corps, with the blind leading the blind, then yes they will die. But if they leave the game because they got shot rather, than sticking in and learning to enjoy getting shot, they wont like this game anyways.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2014-04-18 12:05:41 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Dai is the only char i have in a one man corp. Luhya Saho is another char of mine i dnt mind revealing if u must judge. Despite Dai's solitary corp status, he is by far the most social char i have, proving that u dnt need a corp to play with others.

Most of ur problem seems to be young unkowledgable players, getting decced and not being able to do anything about it. But the reason most cant do anything is more than likely because they've joined a smaller corp lead by an incompetent or negligent CEO, or worse, they've been playing for a few weeks and thought they'd start their own corp. With barely the knowledge and resources to play the game, of course they are going to get crushed by their first war dec.

I recommend new players seek out more established player corps with a thriving playerbase like Eve uni, RvB, Brave Newbies etc etc. Then see that dreaded war dec becoming a huge learning experience as their fellow players take them under their wing and show them whats what.

And not everyone leaves when they get decced an shot up. When i joined a corp i didnt even realise was in a war dec and got jumped on by a ship twice my size, i was sent home in my pod. I left the corp soon after, but not because i had been shot, because the corp simply wasnt there. No one was online for a couple days, i moved on and eventually found a corp that i spent the next year and a half with, still dying, but having fun.

so in a nutshell: Players can play in groups without corps. Protection from war decs already comes with consequences. If ppl join bad corps, with the blind leading the blind, then yes they will die. But if they leave the game because they got shot rather, than sticking in and learning to enjoy getting shot, they wont like this game anyways.


Wasn't really judging just thought it was ironic. But thanks for explaining where you come from.

Yes this is definitely about helping out the new player. Those without the ingame and RL skills they may need to learn to love this game.

Yes joining an established corp would be a smart idea, but I don't think we should force that on people. I also think we should help that group of 3-6 friends coming into eve for the first time and just learning the ropes. Why are more options bad?

Yes stubborn players like you and mean learn to love this game. I don't want EVE to be a mainstream game but I think there is a lot of room for other personalities to learn this game if there was more stepping stones in place.

To your last point I have already addressed. If the current mechanics were working well, EVE would have a growth of players and not just a growth of subscribers. Maybe CCP has hard numbers on this but I don't think they are public. I disagree with you that the current mechanics and tools are sufficient to have EVE continue to grow in the long run. I am proposing an idea to address something I see as a problem, that gets many complaints, without changing options already available, while adding a step in both the learning and difficulty curve that is EVE's early game play.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2014-04-18 12:49:08 UTC
I think it all boils down to one fundamental decision: should EVE be a niche game or not?

Or in other words: should EVE be a great game for some people or a good game for a lot of people?


There is no right or wrong answer, but you have to decide. And I wouldn't be surprised if even CCP's shareholders discuss about this often.


Current Corporation and Wardec mechanics appeal to the kind of new player that makes a Corp, gets decced, dies horribly and repeatedly, has a ton of fun in the process, makes friends with the deccers and goes on to have a successful EVE career.

They also in some way 'force' new players into the fray: if they have a blast (pun intended) they fall in love with the game, if not they leave early.


Your idea would:
1) allow players to be 'safe' indefinetly, meaning that people that don't really enjoy the thrilling 'brutality' of EVE would play it anyway
2) 'tempt' new players to 'lock themselves out' of lots of great content, such as anchoring a tower, being competitive on the market (no tax), deccing other corps, setting up ops in lowsec, etc.

The end result would be maybe more people playing EVE, but probably enjoying it less.


Good or bad? Hard to judge maybe, but until now, CCP have had a great success by not going down that path.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#19 - 2014-04-18 13:46:17 UTC
At the moment were not forcing players to join larger corps. they can join any corp they wish, but their choices have consequences.

If the idea is JUST about socialising, then its already achievable without a corp. Putting a name on ur group im fine with. a group of friends can still join the game together, start a chat channel call it 'corp chat' and play together. The can fleet, they can trade they can make their own mailing list. The only thing they dnt get is to keep their tax, corp hangars and POS's. Once u get the mechanic benefits of a corp, i feel u should get the mechanical vulnerabilities too.

Having more options is not always a good thing. Giving ppl the option to have some benefits while still being able to opt out of disadvantages is not good. its having ur cake and eating it too.

i prefer the idea someone had where after a stint in ur first NPC corp, u can join other NPC corps that are somewhat career focussed. allowing u to meet like minded players. Its essentially a chat channel full of ppl who do the same thing u do.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2014-04-18 15:19:19 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Having more options is not always a good thing. Giving ppl the option to have some benefits while still being able to opt out of disadvantages is not good. its having ur cake and eating it too.


Your right all corps should have the NPC tax added to them. Obviously you are having your cake and eating it to. Also we should get rid of all NPC corps. Everyone starts the game in there own corp with "your name" Corp. With a randomly generated corp ID. Because you know if its not black and white options are bad...



Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
I think it all boils down to one fundamental decision: should EVE be a niche game or not?

Or in other words: should EVE be a great game for some people or a good game for a lot of people?


This is a gross oversimplification.



Quote:
Your idea would:
1) allow players to be 'safe' indefinetly, meaning that people that don't really enjoy the thrilling 'brutality' of EVE would play it anyway
2) 'tempt' new players to 'lock themselves out' of lots of great content, such as anchoring a tower, being competitive on the market (no tax), deccing other corps, setting up ops in lowsec, etc.


Minus awoxing, bumping, corp theft, spying, bounties, lower or no profits from industry.
And ignoring the fact that they could go out and PVP if they want.

Actually the one flaw would be this might make a perfect corp for gankers to hide in but they just seem to use NPC corps when between plots. Though gankers should probably be able to have a place to share assets to.
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