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Balancing: Caldari Hybrid Shield vs. Amarr Laser Armor
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Mr Painless
Perkone
Caldari State
#61 - 2011-11-25 22:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Painless
Midori Tsu wrote:
118k ehp isn't a significant difference to me, sorry.


Fascinating.

Although this looks like a failed troll attempt, I'll just pretend it isn't.

What exactly are you comparing?

You have 2 ships with same roles, giving exactly same type of bonuses to fleet, only difference being one applies to shield, the other to armor.
They are both considered critical part of fleet they are part of, and are therefore very likely to be primaried first, which makes their tank one of their most useful assets and therefore one of the critical factors in determining which one is better.
The bonuses they give to fleet being roughly equal, one has more than 50% more tank than the other, plus it has a web and scram whereas the other has none of those. Also, there is the matter of signature, which also favors the already better ship.

So again, what exactly are you comparing then?
Is it maybe the fact that the Vulture has 50% more DPS than Damnation so this offsets it's tank drawback? ;)
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#62 - 2011-11-25 22:21:20 UTC
Mr Painless wrote:
Midori Tsu wrote:
118k ehp isn't a significant difference to me, sorry.

Is it maybe the fact that the Vulture has 50% more DPS than Damnation so this offsets it's tank drawback? ;)


Oh god, don't bring up the 41 DPS HUGE I WON EVE bonus the Vulture has... the haters who are gonna hate, are clinging onto that one for dear life Lol

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Mr Painless
Perkone
Caldari State
#63 - 2011-11-25 22:40:32 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Mr Painless wrote:
Midori Tsu wrote:
118k ehp isn't a significant difference to me, sorry.

Is it maybe the fact that the Vulture has 50% more DPS than Damnation so this offsets it's tank drawback? ;)


Oh god, don't bring up the 41 DPS HUGE I WON EVE bonus the Vulture has... the haters who are gonna hate, are clinging onto that one for dear life Lol


Yes. I can just imagine the FC speaking to it's fleet on comms: "Guys, our Vulture deals 120 DPS and their Damnation does a feeble 80, we can't possibly lose this fight" :D
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#64 - 2011-11-25 22:42:21 UTC
Midori Tsu wrote:
118k ehp isn't a significant difference to me, sorry.


I sort of joked about being hit badly by a Tempest Alpha fleet in the Vulture. This is the EHP against Explosive damage comparison:

119,673 EHP

So yeah... you're going to die. And die fast.

Damnation EHP against Explosive Damage:

1,225,067 EHP

Thats over a million EHP. The thing is a freaking Carrier, not a command ship Shocked

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#65 - 2011-11-25 22:44:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Mr Painless wrote:

Yes. I can just imagine the FC speaking to it's fleet on comms: "Guys, our Vulture deals 120 DPS and their Damnation does a feeble 80, we can't possibly lose this fight" :D


Lol I wouldn't know, when we roll out our Caldari shield gang, our foes run away in fear, so we never get that far.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2011-11-26 06:27:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaigar
Moonaura wrote:

T2 Energised Adaptive Plates give 20% resist bonus.
Imperial Navy Faction give 28% resist bonus - an 8% increase for faction.

Invulnerability Field T2 gives 30% resist bonus.
Best Faction Invulnerability gives 37.5 resist bonus - a 7.5% increase for faction, for 500m isk, you'd sort of want them to at least 8% right?

No No No No No. This is bad math. Because resistance REDUCES damage you take, you do not look at the resistance, but the total damage taken. For example, 28% resistance means 72% of the damage taken, and 20% resistance means 80% of the damage taken. 72% is 10% less than 80%, so 28% reduces damage you take by 10% over 20, not 8%.

Lets look at an *extreme* case, say the difference between 98% and 99% resistance. 99% doesn't reduce damage by 1% more than 98%, it reduces it by 50% ((1-.99)/(1-.98)=percentage of dmg taken compared to the 98%).

So this means that a CN invul reduces damage by almost 11% over the normal Invulnerability II. Overheating however does not increase resistance based on the damage taken, but instead is straight up multiplied. This is why overheating resistance modules is so good. IE, overheating a T2 explosive hardener will raise the resistance of that module from 55% to 66%, which is about a 24% damage drop.

And Imperial Navy ENAM are 22.5%, not 28%; they are 28.125% with max compensation while the T2 is 25%.

But on the side note, its always been the general notion that shield fleets have much better DPS than armor fleets due to more low slots for slot layouts. But unlike a lot of the amarr ships, caldari hybrid boats don't receive a damage bonus, and 3+ damage mods tends to become a little overboard on most shield ships (and too CPU intensive and stacking penalties), and armor ships have the availability of tracking computers which can function better than a TE in certain scenarios. Also the new T2 Ganglinks will give more armor resistance than the shield resist does due to stacking penalties and the resistance values on ENAM vs. an invul 2 (even if overheating is assumed). Point being that you'll see a bigger "disparity" between fleets after this patch.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#67 - 2011-11-26 10:51:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Jaigar wrote:
Moonaura wrote:

T2 Energised Adaptive Plates give 20% resist bonus.
Imperial Navy Faction give 28% resist bonus - an 8% increase for faction.

Invulnerability Field T2 gives 30% resist bonus.
Best Faction Invulnerability gives 37.5 resist bonus - a 7.5% increase for faction, for 500m isk, you'd sort of want them to at least 8% right?

No No No No No. This is bad math. Because resistance REDUCES damage you take, you do not look at the resistance, but the total damage taken. For example, 28% resistance means 72% of the damage taken, and 20% resistance means 80% of the damage taken. 72% is 10% less than 80%, so 28% reduces damage you take by 10% over 20, not 8%.


Jaigar, chillax you are taking this out of context, I am well aware that 28% is far less than 38%. Roll

Jaigar wrote:
[quote=Moonaura]
And Imperial Navy ENAM are 22.5%, not 28%; they are 28.125% with max compensation while the T2 is 25%.


You're quite right. My bad.

*Moon walks over to the shotgun cabinet, aims at foot and pulls trigger*

But my meaning here, was nothing about overall resistances when applied to the ship, rather my point here, was that for 500m isk, you don't even get 8% bonus to a faction piece, but given that is derp, I will retract it.

However, there are plenty of examples of where you can see shields losing out to Armor when it comes to modules.

The biggest discrepancy, is that there is no passive all round invulnerability modules for shields, the all round resist for shield ships has to be active and eat a ton of CPU when fitted. Yet there are passive modules for armour, two different varieties in fact for different fitting options. Shields just don't have a choice.

Another reason armor wins in EvE, is the amount of factions in the game offering armor modules.

There are no less than seven different factions that offer various faction energised adaptive plating, and nine for active armor hardners.

Shields? Well no surprises here: Invulnerability Fields there are just three faction types. For dedicated hardners? Three again.

This is why Dread Gurista's Invunerability fields cost 500m. The drop rates are radically lower, because the lack of factions dropping shield pieces is more than half that of armour, and a two third less on the dedicated ones. This also means it is far easier to control the region where Dread Guristas loot drops, control prices, and push out neutrals by scanning their missions and bringing friends. I tried once to do the missions there. My poor little worm died on the first day :( awhhh, it was very sad, and we had a wake.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#68 - 2011-11-26 10:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Jaigar wrote:
[quote=Moonaura]
But on the side note, its always been the general notion that shield fleets have much better DPS than armor fleets due to more low slots for slot layouts. But unlike a lot of the amarr ships, caldari hybrid boats don't receive a damage bonus, and 3+ damage mods tends to become a little overboard on most shield ships (and too CPU intensive and stacking penalties), and armor ships have the availability of tracking computers which can function better than a TE in certain scenarios. Also the new T2 Ganglinks will give more armor resistance than the shield resist does due to stacking penalties and the resistance values on ENAM vs. an invul 2 (even if overheating is assumed). Point being that you'll see a bigger "disparity" between fleets after this patch.


Yeap. Sucks to be shields... thus my attempt at trying to get some recognition about Caldari specific ships and shields. It's just not pretty. The worst thing for fleets though has to be the Basiliks, it just takes so much more damage.

With a halo set in a guardian, and a claymore boost, it's signature is smaller than an assault frigate, with the new T2 Gang links, it isn't far from Interceptor size. Big ships can hardly scratch it, and medium ships will do no where near their full damage.

Not many people have figured out that Halo is a better set for Guardians / Oneiros than a slave set for this reason. Oops. Let the cat out the bag on that one.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#69 - 2011-11-26 11:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
[Updated - Thanks Zeerover for pointing out I really need to take my time to dig deeper on these things - you can read my original screwup in his post below]

Okay...

After looking into resists more, thanks to Jaiger pointing out my math sucks... He helped me discover something that I never realised before, and well, it explains a lot, and explains why Caldari completely suck in this game.

I mean... it's simply crazy. Massive. ENORMOUSNESS.

Let me explain:

Both Amarr and Caldari, have a core set of pilot skills to increase armor and shield resists, an example being the:

EM Shield Compensation skill

This helps improve passive shield resistances on both passive and active modules, so when an active Module is inactive - from running out of cap - then it at least still gives some bonus.

Armor gets an identical set of skills to increase their passive armor resistance levels, on both passive and active modules.

But there is a massive difference between the Amarr and Caldari.

Almost all Caldari ships use Active Hardners, and their ONLY all round resistance module is the active, Invulnerability Field.

This is why the Damnation is so good. It takes the faction EANM, and gets a 25% bonus if the armour skills are at level V. Almost all Armor fits, will use a combination of an active hardner or two to close resistance holes, but have enough low slots left to also use EANM - and get a 25% bonus doing so.

The Caldari Invulnerability module, in comparison gets nothing when active, and realistically, it HAS to be active to give the Caldari the tank it needs to survive in fleet. Passive Resistance Modules, even with the 25% bonus, offer significantly less resistance.

In addition, there is no EANM equivalent for Caldari, they don't have a passive all round resistance module, so they can't stack them as easily as the Damnation can, and given the massive EM resistance hole - the worst of any race - they must always fit an EM resistance module regardless, so they always lose 1 mid slot to fill this. By Comparison, the Amarr T2 ships have nothing like a significant resistance holes, and can thus, stack the EANM modules and bring all the resistances up, while skipping on losing a low slot to a dedicated hardener.

This is the biggest kick in the nuts to Caldari I have ever seen and this is why Caldari ships need an increase from 5% to 7.5% resist per level - to help compensate for this awful mechanic.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Zeerover
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2011-11-26 12:58:18 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Okay...

After looking into resists more, thanks to Jaiger pointing out my math sucks... He helped me discover something that I never realised before, and well, it explains a lot, and explains why Caldari completely suck in this game.

I mean... it's simply crazy. Massive. ENORMOUSNESS.

Let me explain:

Both Amarr and Caldari, have specific ships that get a 5% resistance bonus per ship level to resistances. This is the case for both command ships, and ships like the Abaddon and Rokh.

To quote the description accurately on the Damnation:

'Special Abilities
Battlecruiser Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile and Heavy Missile velocity per level
5% bonus to all armor resistances per level

Command Ships Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to armor hitpoints per level
3% bonus to effectiveness of Armored Warfare Links per level'

So, at Battlecruiser V for Damnation, you would expect, to get a 25% bonus to armour resists right?

This is what the description says.

This is NOT what it does. The 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level - is inaccurate and is lying:

It should read '5% bonus to all passive armor resistances per level'.

This 'Ship bonus' has no bearing on the ships existing resistances. And it does not affect Active Hardners resistance levels at all, only the passive resistance level when that module is inactive. Inactive hardners mean you're dead anyway.

Now I knew that the pilot skills for resistances worked like this - it clearly says so on the description of each skill, but had no idea that is what the ship resistances did, it states quite clearly that you get 25% bonus to all resists.

Because Caldari ships have no choice but to use Active Hardners (really - you're going to use a passive EM resist module to cover the 25% starting resistance hole?) - and their ONLY Adaptive Resist, is Active - the ship bonuses for Caldari do absolutely nothing except affect the Passive Resistances of those Active Modules when they are turned off.

Meanwhile... back in Armor land - they fit 3 EANM and laugh all the way to the bank - getting a 25% bonus on each one. This is why passive faction modules work SO well on the Damnation.

HELLO! Shocked

Way it go CCP. The 25% bonus for vulture does absolutely NOTHING. I mean it is pointless. This goes for basically EVERY Caldari ship with 5% resists in this game. It is the most distorted ship bonus in this game, that makes it appear Caldari are somehow balanced, when they are no where close.

This is the biggest kick in the nuts to Caldari I have ever seen. And here I was asking for 7.5 resists per level - like it would make a difference!


It does get a 25% resist bonus, it's just lost in the stack nerf when you put all your other modules on. Take a Vulture undock with it and check it's stats. Otherwise good points you have:)

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Qrwa2.png[/img]
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#71 - 2011-11-26 13:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Zeerover wrote:
[quote=Moonaura]
It does get a 25% resist bonus, it's just lost in the stack nerf when you put all your other modules on. Take a Vulture undock with it and check it's stats. Otherwise good points you have:)


Okay, I see where I have gone wrong. To get into a vulture, you already need Battlecruiser V, so it automatically starts at 25% the vulture is not changed in any way, because you have to have that skill to get in it. I've clarified things, and I will update my post, thanks Zeerover.

Where is my shotgun. Second foot needs shooting. I'm running out of feet ;)

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#72 - 2011-11-26 13:46:53 UTC
Shucks - the Caldari still start off all their T2 resistances for the Vulture like this:

EM 25% TH 85% KN 77% EX 62.5%

Compared to a Damnation:

EM: 62.5 TH: 51.3 KN: 71.9 EX: 85%

While, not really relevant to the game mechanics, it does help explain why the Damnation is so good - if you add these up, it shows a clear difference in total:

Vulture: 249 Damnation: 270

The Damnation is getting a nice free 21% extra resists in it's starting numbers.

So the Vulture is screwed from get go, with a massive EM resistance hole, that can only be filled with a dedicated resistance module. The Damnation has enough all round resists to get by with just using Faction EANM, it's biggest weakness is against the least used damage type in the game, where as the vulture starts off with it's biggest resist against that same damage type.

I find it puzzling how the most advanced shield race in the game, can't figure out how to stop EM, while the Minmitar have got it well and truly sussed out. Their EM resist on the Claymore starts at 75%, it shield resists are still overall lower on average, but it doesn't have the same sort of massive resistance hole the Caldari suffer with.

I guess this is all academic to a point, because Caldari can fix the hole with an EM Hardners easily, because of the way the Resistance mechanics work (The fact it starts off so low, means the EM hardner is more effective). But still - it is another mid slot taken up for fixing a tanking issue and it doesn't help balance the Vulture.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Shanlara
Weatherlight Industry
#73 - 2011-11-26 14:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Shanlara
Have people ever considered that it would be the "armor" tanks who needs a nerf in ehp instead of a shield ehp buff ? I don't understand why everyone asume that the intention is for all ships to have insane tanks, could aswell be it's the caldari ships that's as they where intented and the amarr ships that's the issue here, I know the meta game is to have unbeatable tanks mostly, though it seems like a flaw in gameplay somehow.
Lili Lu
#74 - 2011-11-26 14:51:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
OP, if I'm counting correctly, of the last 12 responses to your thread, 8 have been you. That should tell you something. Besides, this entire thread should be in features and ideas section.

You refuse to understand and accept the differences between armor and shield as they have been in the game design from the getgo. You still think every fleet damnation pilot is flying around with slaves. You do not acknowledge the downsides of armor ships, fittings, and fleets. You refuse to notice that in-game there are plenty of shield fleet set-ups in pvp and they often make use of even multiple Vultures. You appear to be another player like Naomi Knight thinking that CCP has something against Caldari and loves your suffering.

Your suffering is all in your head. Free yourself.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#75 - 2011-11-26 15:50:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Lili Lu wrote:
OP, if I'm counting correctly, of the last 12 responses to your thread, 8 have been you. That should tell you something. Besides, this entire thread should be in features and ideas section.

You refuse to understand and accept the differences between armor and shield as they have been in the game design from the getgo. You still think every fleet damnation pilot is flying around with slaves. You do not acknowledge the downsides of armor ships, fittings, and fleets. You refuse to notice that in-game there are plenty of shield fleet set-ups in pvp and they often make use of even multiple Vultures. You appear to be another player like Naomi Knight thinking that CCP has something against Caldari and loves your suffering.

Your suffering is all in your head. Free yourself.


LOL no I do not think they are flying around in Slaves, but with that sort of EHP, it's not a bad idea. In 0.0, losing clones is part of the lifestyle, even in 565,000 EHP ship. Lowsec - it is a different matter, you rarely die in your pod if you are any good. But even without slaves - as has been stated by others - not just me - Amarr have a real advantage, with far smaller signature, similar speed, more fitting options and better EHP.

The differences have been in the game from the get go? So deal with it right? Well, many ships in this game have changed dramatically in this game over the years, from ships no longer being able to stack MWD's, to Stealth Bombers becoming Torpedo boats, from the drone limit dropping from 10 to 5, Hybrids being changed... need I go on? EvE is always evolving, so why not get Caldari right? If EvE was perfect from the get go, why bother with expansions?

And lol, no I do not think CCP have a thing about Caldari suffering, you are assuming far to much there I'm afraid. All my skills for Moonaura are in the two best races in EvE - Amarr and Minmitar, but with my alts I love flying different types of ships, because I like variety. Currently, for Fleet PvP Caldari kinda suck - sorry - they do, all I have done is to explore the reasons for that - so hell yeah - I think Caldari need balancing, sorry for having a different opinion.

I am not suggesting a change to shields or shield mechanics, what I have suggested is a change to some key Caldari Fleet ships that need more EHP and the tank and fittings considering. Simple ship tweaks would suffice, I can live with some of the downsides, as every race has one.

The drop rates for shield faction pieces, should be looked at however, as it is heavily distorted towards armor pieces, simply because they drop more often, in more places, due to the number of different factions dropping them.

I am sorry if my posts somehow offend you and that by posting more than one post, I have broken some unwritten rule about post limits. I tend to write a lot, and post in bursts, sorry. If you feel that your personal attack on my views is the best way to win an argument, roll with it, but I might suggest that likewise, it is all in your head. Free yourself. Lol

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Mr Painless
Perkone
Caldari State
#76 - 2011-11-26 22:22:00 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
OP, if I'm counting correctly, of the last 12 responses to your thread, 8 have been you. That should tell you something. Besides, this entire thread should be in features and ideas section.

You refuse to understand and accept the differences between armor and shield as they have been in the game design from the getgo. You still think every fleet damnation pilot is flying around with slaves. You do not acknowledge the downsides of armor ships, fittings, and fleets. You refuse to notice that in-game there are plenty of shield fleet set-ups in pvp and they often make use of even multiple Vultures. You appear to be another player like Naomi Knight thinking that CCP has something against Caldari and loves your suffering.

Your suffering is all in your head. Free yourself.



Moonaura offers some pretty solid numbers to back his claims, plus the facts from practice (being, armor fleets much more frequently flown than shield).
You offer nothing but cheap rhetoric about how things were, and therefore should be. If we accepted certain things as they were, most of the goodies we are getting in this expansion wouldn't be there.

But anyway...
Yes, I acknowledge the downsides of armor ships, fitting and fleets. The question is however about downsides of shield ships, and whether the two are balanced.

To prove my point, take a look at one of Caldari's strongpoints - ECM, with regard to tanking. Both the Scorpion and Falcon are usually fitted with armor tanks. It's not really a surprise, since they need every mid slot they can get for ECM. But that's not all. They actually have better tanks armor tanked than shield tanked! And that's with same number of slots reserved for tanking in both cases.
So basically, when you go for armor tank, you get all those mids for MWD, sensor booster, ECM and whatnot, AND you get a better tank. On a Caldari ship.

I can see that you've been in EVE longer than me, so maybe I missed some things, but as far as I can remember, the only shield based PvP fleets that were flown frequently and with success were Drake fleets (no surprise) and sniper HAC fleets.

Curiously, even though sniper HAC fleets relied on shield tanks and sniping (among other things), which are typical Caldari strongpoints, the two most frequently flown ships were Munnin and ironically, Zealot. Cerberus was the third choice usually. Eagle sucked so badly that some people actually preferred Deimos instead!

Finally, I don't think that CCP has something against Caldari, or any other faction. I do think that they simply don't put enough effort/attention to some issues regarding game mechanics and balance. That's where we, the forum whiners step up. :P
Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
#77 - 2011-11-27 01:27:22 UTC
Midori Tsu wrote:
118k ehp isn't a significant difference to me, sorry.


Then you are an idiot. Everything you say from now on I will ignore.

http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com