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Motivation for HS war decs
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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#61 - 2014-04-17 05:19:55 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

If your target has nothing to lose, maybe you are selecting the wrong targets.


Lol, do you hear yourself? Wardecs are only really used in highsec. Highsec corps, by their very nature, tend to not have assets worth fighting for. The summer changes are trying to change that, but the fact remains that the system is broken because it is too easily avoided.

I wonder, what on earth did you hope to gain with that asinine statement?

I snipped out the middle of your post because it was you attacking a strawman, of motivations you made up. At least please try to debate the point.

Quote:

You are attacking an entity which has nothing to lose and expect it's members to fight over that nothing. I think you need to rethink what you are hoping for.


No, dumbass. How about you actually read what I've said on the matter?

I want them to have things to fight over, and to lose something when they don't. I want wardecs to have a purpose. But that can NEVER be achieved so long as it takes 5 minutes and a few million isk to dodge any wardec, ever.


Who's fault is it that you target corps which have no assets to defend? I heard some corps have POCO and they like the money it generat. How about you wardec those corps? Maybe they will find it worthwhile to defend them. Or one with many POS in high sec?

Maybe you aren't after corp assets?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#62 - 2014-04-17 05:29:52 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Tengu Grib wrote:
Another powerfully irritating exploit (and yes I'm calling it an exploit) is to simply dissolve your corporation and form a new one, or have everyone drop corp to NPC and rejoin after the war.

Disagree. An exploit is declared against the rules by CCP and at any rate is an unintended circumstance that players take advantage of. In this case CCP knows of the possibility and do not bar it.

What better purpose of a wardec then to achieve the dissolution of the target corp? If they've started a new corp so what... this will not help them grow in reputation or in numbers. Learn to accept your wins gracefully.


That's mostly cuz they don't want to wage a war, they want to buy some CONCORD approved kills. There is no direct mechanic for that so they used the closest one and then they say it's broken when they don't get the results they wanted.


Then what is it supposed to be used for, oh thrasher of straw?


Evelopedia says : Among other things, corporations and alliances allow formal wars to be fought over resources, trade routes, strategic systems, customs offices, etc.

Not my fault most of that is not really worth much in HS. Resources can be easily had right from the market and you can't block people off stations you don't own so they always have access to that. Trade routes can be blockaded but stuff can also be moved by the ever so powerful entity in EVE called the alt it become useless to do so. Strategic systems are of course meaningless in HS because you can't claim them in the first place. Customs office are a possibility now. The corps holding them would most likely fight with you over them. There will most likely be more POS next x-pac too.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#63 - 2014-04-17 05:32:16 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Not my fault most of that is not really worth much in HS. .


Exactly, so let's add some carrots and some sticks. Same thing with Bounty Hunting.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2014-04-17 05:56:48 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Not my fault most of that is not really worth much in HS. .


Exactly, so let's add some carrots and some sticks. Same thing with Bounty Hunting.


Then make suggestion to create asset in HS which can only be owned by a corp and not an individual. That way, they will make ideal target to declare war against. Make them worth defending if possible so people might actually fight for it.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#65 - 2014-04-17 06:03:17 UTC
I find it funny that people think that the summer changes are going to make more people want to put up POSs, unless they are a 40+ people constantly mining and put up a POS for Refining, or their intended ORE selling is Compression for the NullSec Cartels, they are more than likely to start pulling down their Laboratory POSs with the changes to the Scientific Networking/Supply Chain management skills. The average mission running Corp/Incursion Corp is not likely to put up a POS as the refining changes pretty much nerfed the Loot Reprocessing into the ground, too the point that it probably won't be looting anything that isn't Meta 4 for direct sale.

Now let me share a couple of back stories of when I was living in HS and had WarDecs against my Corp/Alliance at the time.
First, I was mostly mining at this stage, got Wardeced Stayed in Station for a Week and switched to in station trading, ended up making more in that week than I would've mining for 3, no way in hell there was a reason to undock, I was making more ISK docked.

Second, Was mostly mission running, got decked by a griefing corp, small corp of like 8 people, they were very sporatic in their attacks, we had trouble mounting a serious fight against them, then we found out that they were a WH Corp to make their ISK to PvP, we were a decently sized alliance, and the alliance leadership knew allot about WHs and their mechanics. So with some well timed Locator Agents we found which system their WH was currently connected to, and over the next day an a half managed to move in about 50 BS and other assorted PvP ships, and Took out 4 Large Towers in their WH Locking them out of their own WH in the Process. they dropped the WarDec when the first tower went into re-inforced, but being WH space the dec didn't really mean much anymore so we decided to make sure they didn't want to re-dec us and finished off all of their towers in that WH :)

I can see that providing something for the decc'd corp definitely provides an incentive for something to kill and make the dec quickly end. However if they are a true industrialist they will most likely do what I did in the first example, just change play styles for that week :)

The structure to kill idea sounds interesting, definitely gives a carrot. I don't think that the stick approach will really change much.
Koz Katral
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#66 - 2014-04-17 12:06:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Koz Katral
My biggest issue with hi sec war decs is not that the 'defenders' don't want to fight, its often that the 'attackers' are simply looking for easy kills, and will dock up themselves the second anyone tries to contest them. Most hi sec war deccers fight dirty and fight to win - which encourages their opponent to employ the same tactics and the result is everyone dies of boredom.

This often creates a reverse scenario where the defenders end up camping an undock, getting bored to tears because hi sec station camping is a pretty niche play style which not many people actually enjoy. The act of contesting a war dec is often to 'stop doing the activity you actually enjoy, change your play style to match that of high sec station/gate campers, and proceed to fight using every cheap trick you know how to win - or lose a bunch of **** and the cycle continues).

One obvious change would be some kind of harsher penalty for nuetral logi than just a suspect flag - but I'm not sure what to suggest. (perhaps a mechanic that prevents any kind of logistics outside of your own alliance from being able to activate on you while in in high sec, with a similar error to that of trying to launch of a stealth bomb in high sec.)
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#67 - 2014-04-17 12:20:34 UTC
Let me list the steps needed to ensure fights happen:

1) Dec pvp corps

The end.

No trolling please
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#68 - 2014-04-17 13:24:07 UTC
i just thought i'd add CCP said that players hopping to other players corps during a dec was something they'd like to change.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#69 - 2014-04-17 15:24:52 UTC
Haven't read the whole thread, but agree with OP that there definitely needs to be something to promote actual conflict when wars are started, or if you're very set on not giving the enemy the fights they deserve there should be an actual trade off for achieving that, rather than the zero cost/effort there currently is in just staying docked or corp hopping
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#70 - 2014-04-17 16:07:11 UTC
'very set on not giving the enemy the fights they deserve there should be an actual trade off for achieving that'

is this a troll or are u suggesting deccers are entitled to fight ppl who cant fight back, just because they paid 50mil isk?

staying docked is perfectly fine.

there is no win or lose with staying docked. its neutral. no effort, no risk and no rewards.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#71 - 2014-04-17 16:43:49 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


If your target has nothing to lose, maybe you are selecting the wrong targets. Why are you declaring war to a corporation which has nothing to lose? The answer is easy, you want to buy your way to killrights. If CCP want to support such thing it will be their decision but as of right now, the wardec mechanic is purely made to fight over strategic objectives such as resources and structures.


Everyone in Eve has something they can lose. Ships, isk, reputation, implants. If I decide I want to take that from them, why should they be able to evade me forever, free of cost? This is Eve, it is a PVP world. PVP is at the heart of Eve. So why is avoiding PVP so easy?

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#72 - 2014-04-17 16:49:58 UTC
I've let this thread digress for too long.

Some people believe that people should be able to avoid HS wars for free and on a whim with no penalty to themselves, they are entitled to their opinion, but they are wrong. Even CCP has said so.

This thread however is about possible ways encourage people to fight rather than just ducking or even hidding. We've heard a few ideas and I'm interested in hearing more.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#73 - 2014-04-17 17:01:35 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Haven't read the whole thread, but agree with OP that there definitely needs to be something to promote actual conflict when wars are started, or if you're very set on not giving the enemy the fights they deserve there should be an actual trade off for achieving that, rather than the zero cost/effort there currently is in just staying docked or corp hopping



You are going to have to elaborate on the 'fights they deserve' point. How do they deserve a fight? Because they paid some ISK? ISK is the easiest thing in this game to get other than a newbie ship.

The way to get fights is to develop a true conflict. Find something to actually fight over, or someone who actually wants to fight.

Complaining you are not getting 'the fights you deserve' when you are randomly wardeccing PvE focused corps in high sec is the same as comolaining to your mommy that the chess club wont come play football with you.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#74 - 2014-04-17 17:10:51 UTC
I have to agree with Mike, and he knows I rarely do that haha

You can't expect a fight when you dec people who don't ever pvp.

No trolling please
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-04-17 17:29:34 UTC
Again, under current mechanics and motivations I fully agree with you, and I actually lol'd at the chess club analogy.

What I'm trying to look at, is ways of encouraging a change in the way carebears see this game. I would like to provide them with incentive to come out of their PVE shells and experience the excitement of PVP. Eve allows you to be competitive at both Chess and football on the same character, you just have to make people want to do that.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#76 - 2014-04-17 17:49:11 UTC
I am for getting more people to pvp, but there are a lot of people who simply have no interest in it. No matter what changes you make, you won't force people to do something they don't want to do. Do I think they are missing out on a fantastic part of Eve? Absolutely. Do they care? Absolutely not

No trolling please
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2014-04-17 18:03:20 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
I am for getting more people to pvp, but there are a lot of people who simply have no interest in it. No matter what changes you make, you won't force people to do something they don't want to do. Do I think they are missing out on a fantastic part of Eve? Absolutely. Do they care? Absolutely not


This is precisely why I am more interested in providing incentive for fighting rather than punishment for not fighting. For instance, no matter how hard you try, I will never fight you with my scanning alt. My scanning alt deliberately avoids pvp. If you want to fight me, the person, you'll have to fight Tengu. I have plenty of motivation to fight, but it's not going to happen with my scanner. Same thing applies to freighter alts.

Those are some of the reasons I am not very interested in punishing people who wish to avoid pvp (as it might simply be that particular character that is avoiding it), but rather I am interested in encouraging pvp by providing some sort of incentive for doing so.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#78 - 2014-04-17 20:30:29 UTC
Tengu Grib wrote:
The biggest downfall of wars in high sec is a lack of reason to fight.

While I fully agree with this assessment, the ideas that are being presented in this thread are in my opinion very short sighted.

The way I see it, the major problems surrounding wardecs are (in no particular order):

  1. The overwhelming majority of wars are initiated by PVP-corps. One only rarely sees an industrial corp wardec another one and in my opinion, this is terribly wrong. It should be the other way around and not because there are less wardecs from PVP corps than there are now. There simply is nothing to fight over. Apart from ice, everything is available in overwhelming quantities.

  2. Corps in highsec are basically worthless and unless you want to put up a POS or POCO, which you can also do with 1-man alt-corps, or want to fly under the same flashy name, there is absolutely nothing to gain from being in a corp.

  3. There is no way to know what you're up against in a war and worse: even in the unlikely event that you exactly know who you are up against (all neutral scout alts, logistics and boosting chars), you aren't allowed to fight all of them. Alts can join the wardeccer's corp at will and are allowed to fight immediately and many people make extensive use of it.


The following is what I think should be done: strengthening the role of corps, reducing loopholes for wardeccers and giving people a real reason to fight. I'm well aware that some of the following doesn't only affect highsec:

  • Reduction of resources in highsec: Corps should have a real reason to fight other corps. CCP made a first attempt with shrinking ice supplies and I think they're on the right track. They should continue doing so with ore belts but also other resources like e. g. available missions (don't nail me on the details).

  • Fleet boosts (yes, that also includes mining boosts) only apply to members of the same player corp/alliance of the boosting-char. Members of NPC corps cannot boost or receive boosts. This will affect wardeccers and targets alike (mainly targeting points 2 and 3 above): If an ice miner with his 10 miners, Orca and freighter gets wardecced, he can still drop corp but he'll loose a considerable amount of income as mining boosts don't apply anymore until he gets into a player corp again (more on that below). On the other hand: a wardeccer has to put his boosting char at risk and the target will be aware of his presence.

  • You can only legally remote repair/boost members of your own corp/alliance, meaning: neutral logis will get CONCORD'ed.

  • If you drop or disband your corp, you can only join or create another corp after the original wardec is over.

  • If you join a corp that is at war, you'll have the same 24h period to wait before you can legally fight or get legally attacked as your corp had when it initiated or received the wardec.

This is of course just a rough idea and unwanted effects on other areas of the game will have to be dealt with by refining it.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#79 - 2014-04-17 21:33:54 UTC

Sarah Flynt wrote:

You can only legally remote repair/boost members of your own corp/alliance, meaning: neutral logis will get CONCORD'ed.


So incursion fleets can't run logi? Neither can mission runners hanging out with friends?

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#80 - 2014-04-17 21:41:36 UTC
how about - neutral chars cannot rep a char with a capsuleer combat timer (the one that prevents log-off-ski for 30 min, herein CCT) without going criminal? - depending on how their safety is set up - if they're already repping someone who then incurs a CCT, then they'll either stop repping at the end of cycle, or get themselves concordokken, character who have all the same active wars can rep each other, members of the same corp, war allies, etc.....

actually - this would also prevent neutral repping of awoxers - I LIKE this idea....

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.