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Analysis coming Pirate BS changes - Machariel
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#41 - 2014-04-22 13:44:17 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
I understand the Rattlesnake has this cool thing where I can use 2 drones and pretend their 5 but other than reducing server load how is this a benefit? Now to a possible downside. Before when NPC rats aggro your drones you lost 20% DPS pulling that drone in. Now you're going to lose 50%.

It does some awesome DPS close up with torps but this won't work for missions unless you plan on MWD to everything. The travel time will cut your actual DPS.

It never got a drone range bonus so this means using lower DPS long range drones to compensate. How is this going to compare with the Dominix?

Just some thoughts
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#42 - 2014-04-22 15:37:37 UTC
Stein Backstabber wrote:

I've seen people rave about the likes of the fleet phoon here but having seen it myself...wow. The new rattler is basically that on steroids.


It is actually a lot less impressive if you compare the new RS against a proper fitted and flown fleet phoon, at least in the opinion of somebody that actually does fly such a thing. It does a bit better at long range form the dps pov but the rof bonus is actual better if you can already one shoot most BCs and Cruisers with fury missiles and work with a split weapon system anyway(what allows you to switch targets with them individually), compared to the 50% damage bonus(that also limits you to 2 damage types only). It will have 50 points less calibration what forces you to downgrade one rig, the lower speed will be a real handicap when getting into sentry range and if you want to field the same 2 painter, 2 Omni 1 MWD setup you end up with a 2 slot tank on the rattler as well.

As for the Mach, I don't think the faster warp speed will change that much outside hardcore blitzing if you add a lot of imps and rigs, to further improve the warp speed. For armor vs shield mach, armor mach all the way, including angel missions.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#43 - 2014-04-22 16:06:27 UTC
The Djego wrote:
For armor vs shield mach, armor mach all the way.


Et tu, Djego Sad

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#44 - 2014-04-22 16:57:50 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Goldiiee wrote:
The Djego wrote:
For armor vs shield mach, armor mach all the way.


Et tu, Djego Sad


Oops

Well the range is higher and I also dig the extra tracking up close(where you can switch over 1-2 TCs to tracking), the tank is a bit more flimsy than with shield but compared to other ships I fly fairly manageable. I even preferred it over the shield mach before the TE changes, but probably mostly because I fly nearly everything in pve in armor out of convenience and searching for the armor repper on a shield tanked hull when you are in 50% armor is kind of embarrassing(not that it ever happened to me in the shield mach before).

[Machariel, L4 armor]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Core A-Type Large Armor Repairer

Gist B-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Fusion L
Large Remote Armor Repairer II

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Large Dynamic Fuel Valve I
Large Projectile Metastasis Adjuster II

Garde II x4
Warrior II x5

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#45 - 2014-04-22 22:46:40 UTC
IIshira wrote:
I understand the Rattlesnake has this cool thing where I can use 2 drones and pretend their 5 but other than reducing server load how is this a benefit? Now to a possible downside. Before when NPC rats aggro your drones you lost 20% DPS pulling that drone in. Now you're going to lose 50%.

It does some awesome DPS close up with torps but this won't work for missions unless you plan on MWD to everything. The travel time will cut your actual DPS.

It never got a drone range bonus so this means using lower DPS long range drones to compensate. How is this going to compare with the Dominix?

Just some thoughts


No comments on this?

I looked more into this and noticed it lost the 50% bonus to missile velocity. This means rage toprs will hit out to 7.5 km and with javelin you're good to 13 km... Talk about close range... Blasters will hit out further.

The only use for the Nightmare I can see now is PVP where it uses it's AB bonus to burn on top of the target and smash it. It might be excellent for the role of hitting slow moving ships.

I don't see the AB bonus being useful in PVE since you'll spend more time burning to targets while you could have already killed them in a Dominix.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#46 - 2014-04-22 22:59:24 UTC
Nobody really uses torps for pve any more since the changes to CMs. With Fury CMs the new RS can do over 1.5k dps(missile + drone dps) in a realistic setup up to 45km.

The main advantage of the AB bonus on the NM is cap use and avoiding the cap penalty of the mwd. You also don't really burn on top of things with it(it is to slow for that) but move it in a range where you can do good damage(with curators and T2 Tachs this means around 50km).

The point is a mwd fitted Mach\RS\navy phoon or a ab fitted NM can still shoot while it moves in a good damage range, dishing out just as much dps as most domi fittings and can deploy drones when they are in position for even more dps.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-04-22 23:12:31 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Nobody really uses torps for pve any more since the changes to CMs. With Fury CMs the new RS can do over 1.5k dps(missile + drone dps) in a realistic setup up to 45km.

The main advantage of the AB bonus on the NM is cap use and avoiding the cap penalty of the mwd. You also don't really burn on top of things with it(it is to slow for that) but move it in a range where you can do good damage(with curators and T2 Tachs this means around 50km).

The point is a mwd fitted Mach\RS\navy phoon or a ab fitted NM can still shoot while it moves in a good damage range, dishing out just as much dps as most domi fittings and can deploy drones when they are in position for even more dps.


With the RS how much of that is missile DPS? I was trying to use EFT looking for a ship to put 5 launchers but couldn't find anything with a 10 percent damage bonus.

Yea the NM might be interesting... I sold mine to play for PLEX :(

I'm most interesting in the Machariel with it's speed! I bet if it's not webbed it should be able to speed tank well.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#48 - 2014-04-22 23:27:26 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
The new RS should be a bit over 900 dps with fury CMs, 3 CN BCUs and both 5% implants(navy phoon does a bit over 1k and this is 8.25 effective launchers vs 7.5).

I like the extra options on my Inc NMs(especially for armor Assaults), I don't really think it will be a big thing for shield fittings in pve, it is not pushing far enough with cap, pg and speed to be attractive with a armor fit for L4s and it doesn't really add much for pvp.

You don't really use the speed for "speed tanking" since it screws your own tracking and dps. You use it to get within 25-30km to the targets quick and dps them down with guns and sentry drones.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
stoicfaux
#49 - 2014-04-23 00:43:23 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Goldiiee wrote:
The Djego wrote:
For armor vs shield mach, armor mach all the way.


Et tu, Djego Sad

Pull up EFT/PyFA and compare the damage curves for a TE equipped shield Mach and a TC equipped armor Mach versus a TC equipped Vargur. Without TCs, the Mach is pretty lackluster even with an MWD.

edit: Ugh, what's the word for dropping entire sentence fragments?

The point is that the falloff differences between a TC Vargur and a TE Mach w/MWD are so great that the Mach won't necessarily be able to close the range fast enough to make up for the falloff differences.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Dani Skye
Pro Synergy
#50 - 2014-04-23 06:10:38 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
The Djego wrote:
For armor vs shield mach, armor mach all the way.


Et tu, Djego Sad

Pull up EFT/PyFA and compare the damage curves for a TE equipped shield Mach and a TC equipped armor Vargur. Without TCs, the Mach is pretty lackluster even with an MWD.



I'd be interested to see an armor Vargur fit. The idea never occurred to me.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#51 - 2014-04-23 07:00:55 UTC
Dani Skye wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Dani Skye wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
the cool kids armor tank their machs nowadays.


I've never been able to make an armor mach make sense over a shield mach given you'll be shooting angels. I'd love to armor tank one (delicious Tracking Computers) but giving up shield explosive resist seems silly. =/

so stop shooting angels...?


Why would I use a Machariel if not shooting Angels?

for shooting other things? what the hell is wrong with you people, are you legally barred from using logic?

I should buy an Ishtar.
stoicfaux
#52 - 2014-04-23 12:44:29 UTC
Dani Skye wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
The Djego wrote:
For armor vs shield mach, armor mach all the way.


Et tu, Djego Sad

Pull up EFT/PyFA and compare the damage curves for a TE equipped shield Mach and a TC equipped armor Vargur. Without TCs, the Mach is pretty lackluster even with an MWD.



I'd be interested to see an armor Vargur fit. The idea never occurred to me.

And hopefully it will never occur to anyone ever. I fixed my original post.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Lockdown86
Night line Logistics
#53 - 2014-04-23 15:09:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lockdown86
Medai Kesrith wrote:
If you are in the mission blitzing business, consider this Machariel that will warp with a high grade Ascendancy 5.8 AU faster than a Frigate :).

Quote:
[Machariel, warp speed]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Gist C-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Projectile Metastasis Adjuster II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II


wont machariel specific implants for guns, tracking make things faster? if u can get implants for tracking then u can use an extra gyro :P or if u wanna go faster eject ur mach after bookmarking it hand mission in and get the next one warp to ur ship and go hahahahaha
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#54 - 2014-04-23 15:44:19 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Dani Skye wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
The Djego wrote:
For armor vs shield mach, armor mach all the way.


Et tu, Djego Sad

Pull up EFT/PyFA and compare the damage curves for a TE equipped shield Mach and a TC equipped armor Vargur. Without TCs, the Mach is pretty lackluster even with an MWD.



I'd be interested to see an armor Vargur fit. The idea never occurred to me.

And hopefully it will never occur to anyone ever. I fixed my original post.



Considering the Vargur does not get a bonus to armor reps, not many.
Medai Kesrith
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2014-04-23 22:43:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Medai Kesrith
About armor v shield Machariel, it is a myth that the armor variant is better. Use EFT and compare the numbers, relevant numbers are falloff range and tracking. The shield Machariel has the better tracking if you are doing it right. The armor Machariel is a pain in the ass, if you are switching the scripts, if you aren't switching them the shield Machariel is always better.

All V stats, no imps
~1090DPS
Armor Mach with 4x TC and no TE + 1xTII tracking rig
TC set to 3x Range, 1x Tracking
Range = 4.2+69 km
Tracking = 0.0824

TC set to 2x Range, 2x Tracking
Range = 3.9+59 km
Tracking = 0.0986


Shield Mach with 2x TC + 3x TE + 1xTII tracking rig
~1090DPS
TC set to 1x Range, 1x Tracking
Range = 4.1+66 km
Tracking = 0.09357

TC set to 2x Tracking
Range = 3.8+56 km
Tracking = 0.11018



Yeah the tracking, 0.11018 to understand what that means here is the tracking of an unbonused medium gun 425mm AC = 0.1056 (e.g. on a Cane with All V the 425mm has a tracking of 0.132) That means hitting a NPC BS is ~90% "penetrate" hits.
No missile ship can beat that, the overall perfomance of the Machariel is way better. Add now the new warp speed and you have a killing machine with no wasted time in warp.

For more details about tracking and falloff read this:
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage
Dani Skye
Pro Synergy
#56 - 2014-04-24 04:06:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dani Skye
Daniel Plain wrote:
for shooting other things? what the hell is wrong with you people, are you legally barred from using logic?


Perhaps I should amend my post to be more clear.

Why would I use a Machariel against anything besides Angels when there are superior options to Autocannons for every other pirate faction?

stoicfaux wrote:
Pull up EFT/PyFA and compare the damage curves for a TE equipped shield Mach and a TC equipped armor Mach versus a TC equipped Vargur. Without TCs, the Mach is pretty lackluster even with an MWD.

edit: Ugh, what's the word for dropping entire sentence fragments?

The point is that the falloff differences between a TC Vargur and a TE Mach w/MWD are so great that the Mach won't necessarily be able to close the range fast enough to make up for the falloff differences.


For what it's worth, you can EFT warrior a shield Machariel fit that's the same price as the fit Djego posted earlier in the thread with same cap and range but better tank. You lose a little on tracking and the ability to switch a bunch of TCs to tracking if need be, but if tracking is really an issue you can lose a little tank for it.

EDIT: I'm assuming a Vargur doesn't have more TCs than an armor Mach, in which case the only projection you would gain is from Bastion. If you're in Bastion, you're not gaining damage from MWDing closer like a Machariel does.
Medai Kesrith
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2014-04-24 06:48:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Medai Kesrith
The Bastion mode is a joke on the Vargur regarding range, it gives you an uber tank you don't need at all. The Vargur is useful in C3 or C4 against sleeper. The Machariel has better DPS and mobility by far vs Vargur for any LvL 4.

All V stats, no imps
~990DPS
Vargur with 3x TC
TC set to 2x Range, 1x Tracking, not in Bastion mode
Range = 4.2+68 km
Tracking = 0.10895

TC set to 2x Range, 1x Tracking, in Bastion mode
Range = 4.8+73 km
Tracking = 0.10895

TC set to 1x Range, 2x Tracking, in Bastion mode
Range = 4.5+64 km
Tracking = 0.13819



The only Marauder that is okish is the Paladin with Pulse+Scorch with 4xNavy Heat Sinks + 3xTE + 1xTC + 1xTII tracking rig + 1x TII optimal rig, you get:
All V stats, no imps
not in Bastion mode
~830 DPS
Range = 88+16 km
Tracking = 0.05304

in Bastion mode
~830 DPS
Range = 100+17 km
Tracking = 0.05304


Tracking at this range does not really matter. The optimal range and the NPCs "burning" to you gives you guaranteed good hits, the Paladin is the lazy ones choice. Jump in the mission, MJD to 100km optimal, always get ~830DPS and good hits. Paladins problems low DPS, immobile (needs MJD) and the biggest one EM/Therm damage, so it is perfect vs Sansha/Blood, Drones and Mercs, works ok vs Serpentis, bad vs Guristas and you can't use it at all vs Angels or EoM.

The Vargur would need 300km falloff, no i'm not joking, to be as good as the Paladin. Read this to understand why http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#58 - 2014-04-24 13:46:52 UTC
Some comments and critical feedback for the u.

Medai Kesrith wrote:
At average you will need 1x jump, roughly 50AU to get to your mission, totalling 100AU to get back to your home station.

This average in my experience, is wrong. Even with needing 1jump to get to the mission system, my totals seem to be the less than 20AU for the total one way trip from station to mission site.

Also, these numbers seem to include align time, which isn't a good thing when considering what rigs to take.

Quote:

8 missions per hour
Battleship warp time = 2040s, 34min
Destroyer warp time = 1020s, 17min
Frigate warp time = 800s, ~13min


Best case you can shave off roughly 20min warp time that you aren't wasting. I call that significant.

I'm not one to do a lot of mission declines, so I'm sure there is a better better strat to making isk for blitzing, but the 34 min bs time doesn't seem accurate. Ur saying that mission take longer to warp to than they do to complete.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#59 - 2014-04-24 17:25:45 UTC
Medai Kesrith wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
what are the numbers on marauders?


Marauder basic warp speed = 2.2 AU

the thing is the Machariel will not only warp with 3.0 AU but gets the warp acceleration like a Cruiser too.


I don't think you know how warp mechanics work. Smile
Sheimi Madaveda
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2014-04-25 02:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Sheimi Madaveda
@OP, you have made a hilariously terrible mistake. That mistake is the assumption that High Grade Ascendancy Omega is better than the WS-618 implant... which it's not. Even if you have the entire Ascendancy set, WS-618 still grants a more significant bonus AND it costs less than half of the price. Not only that, but WS-615 grants basically the same bonus as Ascendancy Omega would for 150mil... about one-tenth the prices you were looking at. I just can't understand what makes you notice the WS implants but forces you to not compare the numbers and simply assume the pirate implants are automatically better.

IIshira wrote:
[quote=IIshira]
I looked more into this and noticed it lost the 50% bonus to missile velocity. This means rage toprs will hit out to 7.5 km and with javelin you're good to 13 km... Talk about close range... Blasters will hit out further.

The only use for the Nightmare I can see now is PVP where it uses it's AB bonus to burn on top of the target and smash it. It might be excellent for the role of hitting slow moving ships.

I don't see the AB bonus being useful in PVE since you'll spend more time burning to targets while you could have already killed them in a Dominix.


So many things wrong with this. First of all, Torpedoes have 20km base range... they're not rockets, lol.

Nightmare is getting another low slot, and you could easily MJD+AB fit the thing and use either Mega Pulse or Tachyons depending on what you want while still having amazing DPS and damage application. EIther way you will track better than Sentries and hit out to greater than relevant ranges.

Arma Purgatorium - Once for the State, Now for the King Low Sec, PvP, Industrial - Open for Recruiting http://armapurgatorium.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/arpur_recruit1.png