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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1341 - 2014-04-19 04:45:39 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Character skills are for character progression, and here they serve the greater purpose of personalizing a character through their abilities selectively. Standings can have a similar effect, but have no reason to be in any way related to POS placement to retain that effect.


How does one arrive at that conclusion? I am genuinely interested, where you see the disconnect of -5.0 + you dont get shot at, fraternize with other people of 7 + and you can have a CONCORD protected pos in highsec.
Concord protection of anything else that is concord protected is not contingent upon faction standings so why should POS be an exception? Really by that token if there is any application of settings it should at best mirror faction navy KOS standings by your logic, meaning a day old alt can still pop up a tower just as well as they can wander the whole of highsec.

How do you connect the idea of being disallowed access with privileged status? And in what way does that actually justify the privilege being maintained as an exclusivity?


If what you are saying would hold water , we would have to see concord fight faction troops around a -5.0 standing player.

Its interesting how you can see one thing as privilege and the sheer ability to fly in faction space not.
Kitt Letor
Team Evil
#1342 - 2014-04-19 06:40:37 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
standings characters are still worth the most as traders.


Not for long, I'd wager. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. They've confirmed standings, and faction standings in particular I guess, are a mechanic that no one wants or likes and are actively removing it from anything they touch. How long until they they remove it from broker fees? The sooner the better, honestly.

not any time soon. WTS high caldari standings character I've been meaning to work on trade skills
Rain6637
NulzSec
#1343 - 2014-04-19 06:47:03 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
standings characters are still worth the most as traders.


Not for long, I'd wager. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. They've confirmed standings, and faction standings in particular I guess, are a mechanic that no one wants or likes and are actively removing it from anything they touch. How long until they they remove it from broker fees? The sooner the better, honestly.

I disagree directly. I'm thinking the high sec POS standings requirement was a move to proliferate industry, and the market standings taxes mechanic is not going away... because it doesn't have the problem of blocking players from trade gameplay.

if anything, the high sec POS standings removal was a move toward market's system where everyone can participate in market trades, but at different tax rates. (refine, build, research jobs at various tax rates, but everyone can do it)
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1344 - 2014-04-19 07:20:07 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:

I disagree directly. I'm thinking the high sec POS standings requirement was a move to proliferate industry, and the market standings taxes mechanic is not going away... because it doesn't have the problem of blocking players from trade gameplay.

if anything, the high sec POS standings removal was a move toward market's system where everyone can participate in market trades, but at different tax rates. (refine, build, research jobs at various tax rates, but everyone can do it)


No one was blocked from industry. You bought a pre-fab standings corp and setup your pos, or got standings yourself (or bought a standings char) if you wanted more flexibility. Maintaining your own standings was a slight edge and viable income source, but certainly nothing game breaking.

If the argument for removing standings for POS use is that standings are a lame mechanic, then the exact same argument holds for broker's fees.

If the argument was that it limited hisec POS use, that is demonstrably false.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#1345 - 2014-04-19 08:02:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
yes you're right. do away with standings altogether especially market

I would help you with this crusade but sadly it's never going to happen.

good luck, though. keep fighting the good fight
Desash
The Extremely Norty Gankers Union
#1346 - 2014-04-19 10:17:15 UTC
Good changes for the most part but along with many others I'm slightly disappointed with the faction standings meaning nothing now with regards hi-sec POS's.

How about, as a concession to the corps who did the hard grind, that any player corporation with sufficiently high faction standings be allowed to use POS's modules that are currently restricted to 0.4 or below, maybe even allow moon mining.


Something like this:

In 1.0, 0.9 or 0.8 any player corporation can anchor a POS in accordance with the future mechanics presented to us here.

In 0.7, 0.6 or 0.5 a player corporation can anchor a POS and use Reactor Arrays and Moon Harvesting Arrays as long as they have and continue to maintain the standings required for that system as per current mechanics. Obviously limit the moon goo to R16's or worse.


I believe this could open up more 'risk v's reward' instances as well as maintain that wonderful standings grind content we enjoy so much.
Altessa Post
Midnight special super sexy
#1347 - 2014-04-19 10:42:53 UTC
Querns wrote:

This vignette is amusing, but does not reflect reality particularly well. In reality, you skip the grinding process and pony up ISK for a corporation or a standings dude and short-circuit the entire process.

Show me a corporation who honestly expects every one of their members to maintain 6.0-7.0 standings with a racial faction, so as to not hinder their ability to erect a POS, and I will show you a corporation of addled fools.


And yet, it creates game play. Setting up a POS became its own profession. Removing the standing restriction, removes content.

There where you want to have a POS for your own corp to which you are attached to, there is no other way then hard work. And yes, it is awefully difficult. It leads to decisions whether to accept new members or to stop recruitment for a while. It means to train members to fly missions. It means to encourage and motivate every single pilot in your corp to participate. It is called leadership. Such "corporations of addled fools" are a tight community and I think it is a part of what we enjoy in the game.
And once again, by removing a corp goal as a common accomplishment of a community, you remove something from the game.



P.S.: While I value your opinion, I would rather skip the thoughtless judgement of my playstyle.

On the internet, you can be whatever you want to be. It is amazing that so many people chose to be stupid.

Theo Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1348 - 2014-04-19 12:06:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Theo Sotken
The biggest concerns that are arising over these changes are caused by CCP creating a dev blog that is totally inadequate to make informed decisions with.

At present I would hope that removing the ability to copy blueprints at stations to POSes does not create a situation where I am forced station jump blueprints or have to setup some remote research solely to entertain pvper's at my expense.

I am also concerned that being wardecced is already a pretty cheap afk way of griefing an industry corp and adds no risk to the wardeccer while causing a lot of disruption and expense. I would like a mechanic that introduces a long consequence for the wardeccers rather than the current pitifully low isk payment.
Nlex
Domini Canium
#1349 - 2014-04-19 13:05:01 UTC
Firvain wrote:
Nlex wrote:
Standings required for anchoring a POS are as much RP and lore item as they are a gameplay mechanic. Removing them would mean that suddenly, Empires let just about anyone plunk a POS at their moons. Why would they do that, especially when CCP's recent plot developments hint at Empires being oh so afraid of capsuleers' rising power?


Maybe thats the whole point. Our rising power means we dont need permission of the empire's to anchor a tower. See we got this lore thing sorted!

Someone freshly from Caille Uni doesn't have any power, yet, with summer changes, is allowed to put up POSes. Moreover, if Empires indeed feel threatened by large capsuleer alliances in 0.0, giving them free access to moons and planets is completely illogical thing to do.
This here is another thing CCP does to make lore side of EVE setting, NPC Empires, irrelevant to PvP gameplay. This should not stand. Trade taxes, refine taxes, standings requirements for anchoring in space, charters are all part of payment for using NPC services, of setting's lore.
Lisa Dorn
VOID EMPIRE
#1350 - 2014-04-19 13:56:57 UTC
Thank you CCP for making Standings useless.

I would agree if you only would make it available for certain Sec Status (like 0.5, 0.6) and higher still require Standings. But making it completly available is a bit over the top in my opinion. I mean you get shot by the faction if you have bad standings but you get nothing when you got good standings? Many ppl just grinded up Standings to Anchor their own pos in highsec.

How about making cloning available for everyone? That would make sense. But eh ccp is taking from those who invested some time to grind up standings just to take them away.


Well done...


Mar'Dur Taren
The Copernicus Institute
#1351 - 2014-04-19 13:58:26 UTC
Quote:
Remove the ability for players to use stations to safely store their blueprints without putting them at risk in Starbase structures. Players will still be able to start their jobs remotely (via the use of Supply Chain Management and Scientific Networking skills), but will now have to move their blueprints directly into the starbase structures that require it, like other materials.


I want to vehemently protest against this planned change. It is going to be a detriment to industry.

I run a multi-person Tech 2 business. Its been difficult sorting things so there is a reduced risk of things being stolen or destroyed. I still endure a risk and I think its enough. More risk is unacceptable. The plan to make it impossible to copy BPOs in a POS while they remain in a station causes a very high risk that I will lose BPOs regularly. People will misplace them, steal them or go inactive while in possession of them. Currently, the BPOs are stored in a central location where we can do anything we need them to do. There is no need to search through arrays or cans or anything to find what's needed. A simple search in the inventory window is enough. If I was to allow BPOs to go to the POS I would have to either give my copiers full access to the BPOs or assign every job personally. The first is a huge risk. I would have to trust everyone one of my copier boffins. This would eliminate copying as good introductory role for new boffins. Assigning jobs is a major hassle as it take time from the directors to pack up each task.

If I choose to copy BPOs in a copy station then I will not also be able to manufacture using the originals as the Build and Copy stations are rarely the same place. I would at the least need to collect another set of the BPOs so as to have some on each station. Furthermore I would miss out on the time bonus that copy labs at a POS have making the whole process take longer.

My boffins copy between 7,500 and 10,000 BPCs a month. This new system will add a significant amount to that figure. I will need to copy the Advance Component BPOs and module BPOs in order to make the parts for the Tech 2 builds. What's more, I have to store all those BPCs somewhere and containers are currently limited to 1,000 BPCs at a time. I can't put tens of thousands of BPCs in a corp hangar. The lag when accessing it would be unbearable. Then you are going to have dozens of odd runs BPCs that aren't worth building from since you need many more than the BPC has. I suspect I'd end up destroying a lot of sub 100 runs BPCs. That many copy jobs is going to max out the price on any lab station. I'm looking at paying a huge premium on the copy jobs I have to do. How does that figure compare to running a copying POS? I certainly hope its cheaper as I'm going to be waiting an extra day for each one since I miss out on the 65% time reduction from Advanced Mobile Labs.

Next problem. My last build cycle demanded that I build 12,392 Quantum Microprocessors amongst other things. I used the remote build ability to use a BPO in station and build at the POS for the speed bonus. I used one slot on my alt and the job would take about 5.25 days. I didn't have to interact with it again until it was done. Nice and easy and fairly logical. Lets assume the new system forces me to make BPCs of the Quantum Microprocessor BPO to build the items in the POS. Already I have added the time associated with making 13 copies to the build job [Quantum Microprocessor BPOs have max run of 1,000.] Then I have to put on 10 build jobs for 1,000 runs each. They will take just over 5 hours each. Then I have to come back and put on the last 3 jobs. Like most people I probably wont log in for another 24 hours so approximately 18 hours of my day is wasted time because my array is building nothing. Furthermore, I can only do Quantum Microprocessors for those two days. Currently I can have ten different projects running and know that there is going to be a minimum of wasted time on the job. I have dozens of things to build for a build cycle. I don't need every job split into 10-15 pieces that need to be micromanaged. With the added time for copying the needed BPCs and the wasted time associated with short build jobs you will find that building a “batch” of goods is going to take considerably longer than it currently does.

If you want to make some significant improvements to industry then you should looks at things like the 1,000 item limit on cans so you can store your BPCs more easily. Setting it up so you can stack BPCs with the same stats would be even better. You actually have a very similar mechanic happening with the R.A.M. already. They are stackable in a virgin state and become unstackable once partially used. Displaying ME, PE and Runs Remaining on the the BP icon would be a major assistance.

Want to help productivity? Change the number of build/research jobs people can put on at one time. There is regularly this time loss as a result of a job finishing long before someone's usual log in time. So instead, say that someone may have max of 11 jobs actively running (11 being the absolute maximum due to skills) and then they may queue up another 11 – 44 jobs that will start when one of the initial eleven are finished. Its kinda a skill queue for build jobs. This would be a major assistance to Tech 2 manufacturing because they only deal with BPCs with short runs on them (10 – 19 at best).

Proud to be a Boffin!

Volar Kang
Kang Industrial
#1352 - 2014-04-19 14:23:03 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Volar Kang wrote:
I see a lot of talk of POS bashing and noobs spamming POS,s come the change but ask yourself this... After the change why even put up a POS in high-sec? You can just move five to eight jumps from Jita and have all the slots you want for less than the monthly cost of a POS.

Personally I have a few systems on my radar and after the change I will most likely take my POS down and avoid the hassles of having it while doing industry in the total safety of a station. This change is actually going to reduce the number of POS,s in high-sec.

Probably true for POSes used for research and copying, but maybe not for those used for manufacturing.

I know that I'm certainly NOT going to be putting my BPOs in a high-sec POS. I think that it is highly unlikely that CCP can make the reward worth the risk. The mere fact that labs are attached to the POS will ensure an automatic wardec of any small research or industrial corp. Even if you move your BPO's out of the POS before the wardec starts, cancelling ME/PE/copy jobs in progress and the POS downtime due to the wardec will probably erase any benefit.

But, for manufacturing, I can use BPCs in a POS. Unless CCP makes it possible for other players to see exactly what is being manufacturing, it will be difficult to determine if it is worth wardec'cing the POS owners. In this case, the reward vs risk ratio may be acceptable.


There are orders of magnitude more stations with manufacturing services than research. The run of the mill build pos may go away without substantial bonuses (except T3 science and industry which can't be done in station.) But ME/PE stations will likely be max congested in short order, there are only about 10% of all stations that have those services.


The question is... Will the cost of using maxed stations be higher than the cost of running a POS? Will stations be maxed out 10 jumps away from trade hubs? Will CCP really raise the price of slots so high that it will block entrance to industry for new manufacturers? We don't know yet but you can bet I will be checking slot prices 8 to 12 jumps away from my trade hub. If after the change I can do my stuff cheaper and safer and with less hassle than in a POS, mine will go offline.
Geo Max
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1353 - 2014-04-19 18:11:26 UTC
Nice Dev Blog!.

I was thinking the other day when I manufactured a new ship.... What if you build a ship from the ground up, I mean, you mine the materials, create the parts, then build it and put it on sale on the market.... but the game keep tracking of that unique artesanal ship... and some day you received an e-mail or notificattion that your baby end it's life in a big war between massive corporations or was kill by concord because it's been used by criminals or it's explode in a remote location of unknow space while doing exploration.... something that tell you the story of the ship that you build with such dedication.

Maybe I'am crazy... but it will be a nice touch. Blink

Flash Phoenix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1354 - 2014-04-19 20:13:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Flash Phoenix
Some in game train PvP skills. Then they go and PvP. Perhaps they become a mercenary or join with friends and claim some space. Their standings (kill boards) allows them to get jobs, charge more, attract other players, have a game style that many in the game do not have because they have not done the time and effort of training and learning how, the many battles and such to reap their rewards from it. Now others in game have done PvE, they have done their time at it and learned the fits and whats needed, and as a reward they can sell items or refine items with more rewards, They can even use their faction standings to set up a POS in high sec to use and enjoy. Even attract others to their corp because thier faction standing allowed them to do so, and thus all in the corp can enjoy the rewards. Many in the game can not do this because they have not been willing to play that game style or even get interested in it.
CCP has created a game that has many game styles and allows people to have certain benefits from it that others do not have.

Now we have CCP allowing one to buy their way out of negative standing from PvP or ganking and fly where they wish with ease and no risk from flying in areas where they could not have in the past. No risk of flying in low sec or null and loosing ships as they rat their way back to better standing so as to fly in high sec.
We now have grav sites that no longer need scan skills and the loss of the fun to explore and search for them so as to reap their rewards.

We now have ganking or PvP with ease from those who enjoy this play style and yet they have little risk or effort to gain their reward of killing a mining ship, No searching or exploring for a target, and the thrill of finding said target, just warp in and shoot, and if their in high sec they do not even risk being a legal target while they search because they have bought their sec status.
It seems we will soon have the reward of setting up and enjoying the potential benefits of a POS in high sec with no risk or enjoyment in the process to do so. No risk of flying high isk fitted ships to quickly gain status vs getting having your ship ganked. No risk of having a hauler or a PvE fit ship jumped in those low sec missons.
Sure their are work arounds to every part of the game, sadly. One can buy toons for example or buy a corp. One can buy a titan toon or a POS setting toon. PvP requires practice to be good at it but a toon bought with hi skills sure does ease that learning curve. But one does not learn much about good fits or what fights one might win or loose at it unless you practice at it as you spend time and learn as you move up the skill set. One can buy a corp and set up a POS in hi sec but it does not allow one to learn what it takes to be a successful trader or manufacture as you spend time and investments while moving up the skill set. You make some good investments and some bad as you move up the skill set and learn what factions you need good standings with. A POS is not always a good investments and in EVE you can make bad investements. Its a lot of isk and time to risk to find out.
In Eve we have always had risk. The risk of loosing ships, materials, items, investments and we even risk the TIME and amount of FUN we have in game versus the reward we get.
We seem to have the path of instant gratification firmly set. Some pick one game style and others pick a different game style. Each has thier rewards and downfalls, each has a process for fun and reward in the game and learning as we go, or at least it use to be that way. So soon we all can set up and reap the potential benifits of a POS in hi sec with no time or risk spent having fun in the game to be able to do so.

What happened to RISK vs GAIN ?
Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1355 - 2014-04-19 20:55:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconus Lofwyr
after the removal of standings requirements for highhsec pos's, will there be any point to increasing faction standings anymore? will something be added to keep the value of the grind or will it just be removed altogether?

jump clones can be acquired with just corp standings, faction warfare just needs positive standings, refine and tax reductions are corp standings.

there are a lot of players out there that spent a lot of time grinding faction standings to suddenly make their entire work worthless.
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
The Bastion
#1356 - 2014-04-19 21:02:03 UTC
Volar Kang wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Volar Kang wrote:



There are orders of magnitude more stations with manufacturing services than research. The run of the mill build pos may go away without substantial bonuses (except T3 science and industry which can't be done in station.) But ME/PE stations will likely be max congested in short order, there are only about 10% of all stations that have those services.


The question is... Will the cost of using maxed stations be higher than the cost of running a POS? Will stations be maxed out 10 jumps away from trade hubs? Will CCP really raise the price of slots so high that it will block entrance to industry for new manufacturers? We don't know yet but you can bet I will be checking slot prices 8 to 12 jumps away from my trade hub. If after the change I can do my stuff cheaper and safer and with less hassle than in a POS, mine will go offline.


That depends on CCP, and what kind if POS you use currently. I use a caldari large when I have one up so It costs me about 400 million a month to operate. So unless you put on 1000 jobs a month, or CCP really really borks the price rates I can't see it getting that bad, however you will lose the speed bonuses from the pos mods.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1357 - 2014-04-19 21:13:27 UTC
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
tax reductions are corp standings.

Not completely -- market tax reductions benefit from both faction and corp. You want both as high as possible.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Zappity
Kurved Trading
#1358 - 2014-04-19 21:27:00 UTC
Lisa Dorn wrote:
Thank you CCP for making Standings useless.

I would agree if you only would make it available for certain Sec Status (like 0.5, 0.6) and higher still require Standings. But making it completly available is a bit over the top in my opinion. I mean you get shot by the faction if you have bad standings but you get nothing when you got good standings? Many ppl just grinded up Standings to Anchor their own pos in highsec.

How about making cloning available for everyone? That would make sense. But eh ccp is taking from those who invested some time to grind up standings just to take them away.


Well done...



Yes, very well done CCP for removing a mechanical requirement to grind. Please extend to other aspects like jump clones.

Grinding is bad, OK? It is bad for new players and it is bad for player retention. The fact that you had to do it back in the mists of time is not a good reason to keep bad gameplay.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1359 - 2014-04-19 21:42:49 UTC
Querns wrote:
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
tax reductions are corp standings.

Not completely -- market tax reductions benefit from both faction and corp. You want both as high as possible.



also not entirely, it draws from which ever is higher
Zeera Tomb-Raider
Vega Farscape
#1360 - 2014-04-19 21:51:10 UTC
Querns wrote:
Or is "gameplay" only supposed to be available to those who meet the stringent requirements of "have rubbed their face against the cheese grater of Eve: Online standings for a sufficient amount of time?"

then you must think all sp and LP rec shud be remowed from the game as well,so baying plex you can be a titan pilot from day 1.for exactly howe longe will that be fun.real life wallet over game arcivments.thats surly be the downfall of eve.