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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#1661 - 2014-05-01 01:41:00 UTC
If you have borderline OCD you can make RHMLs work for you in PvE...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1662 - 2014-05-01 01:45:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
There must be a difference in related skillsets for the weapons I'd imagine. I'm doing most of the math by hand but after double checking I'm relatively confident in my numbers. You are right about the range not matching with T1 ammo but at equivalent skillsets MF should out damage T1 missiles.
I just went in-game to verify. I'm actually using t2 RHMLs and mega modulated pulse lasers. With t1 missiles I have 136.1 missile DPS listed on my fitting screen with 113.9 turret DPS and 257.2 drone DPS. EFT agrees with my numbers except for the missile DPS, it believes that should be 94.9. I don't remember when I last updated EFT--it was a while back but I do have the RHMLs in my version.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Reaver_Glitterstim
check my skills here ^

edit: EFT thinks the duration of the RHML IIs is 5.65678s with my skills, but in fact it is 3.97s.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1663 - 2014-05-01 01:51:05 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I get the mechanics and how they affect the launcher, but what you stated explains how the RHML marginalizes ROF bonuses, but not quite how it's penalized by them. Thus back to the example, a T2 BCU vs a Calefaction catalyst rig:

T1 Rig - Same Damage boost but without the ROF boost. Again, I'm in no way disagreeing that the difference is marginal in performance, and the gains situational, but it's there and I'd rather have it than not.

T2 Rig - Objectively superior to a T2 BCU for RHML, but takes quite a bit of calibration, leaving your remaining rigging options limited.

And going either way means you are still losing out on raw effectiveness of a mid slot omni alongside the ability to be scripted to fit that TP. I'm just not liking the trade at first glance, though depending on where the damage balance is I suppose it could be worth it to de-emphasize the drone side with a particular fit.

Sure, here's the same comparison using a T2 Catalyst rig instead of a 4th BCU:
• Navy Raven Issue ... 849 dps (actual 561 dps; 66.1%)
• Navy Scorpion Issue ... 849 dps (actual 504 dps; 59.4%)

DPS is actually marginally better (both stated and actual), and it frees up a low slot. Granted, this is using 300 calibration - and it's a rather expensive rig - but if you're using target painters anyway any remaining calibration is best served by T1 flares. For torpedoes or cruise missiles, a ballistic control is better than a Catalyst rig because rate of fire actually benefits those weapons.

If I were to fit one of the "new" Rattlesnakes, I would probably utilize something along these lines:

• 5x T2 Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers
• 1x T2 Drone Link Augmentor II

• 1x Large Hydraulic Thrusters II
• 2x Large Hydraulic Thrusters I

• 2x T2 Ballistic Control II
• 2x T2 Drone Damage Amplifier II
• 2x T2 Drone Tracking Enhancer II (new)

• 1x Large Micro Jump Drive
• 1x 100MN MWD or 100MN Afterburner
• 1-2x T2 Target Painters
• 3-4x Tank of choice

As a matter of interest, what would you use for tank?
Why Hydraulic Bay Thrusters? They increase flight time but add nothing to damage application.
2 TP (needed so missiles will actually hit something well enough to actually damage it) leaves you a 3 slot tank. XLASB requires CPU upgrade to complete the tank. LSE + 2 T2 invul gives you a buffer tank of 93,700 (71k eve), not ideal for a battleship.


Fitting for both drone and missile Dps leaves you with less than desirable results with either.
You would be better off fitting for 1 or the other, trying to optimize both just doesn't look like it will work. You end up utilizing 5 slots for Drone Dps and application and 9 for Missiles + 3 missile rigs. 17 of 22 available slots for balanced but not optimized Dps.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1664 - 2014-05-01 01:55:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
There must be a difference in related skillsets for the weapons I'd imagine. I'm doing most of the math by hand but after double checking I'm relatively confident in my numbers. You are right about the range not matching with T1 ammo but at equivalent skillsets MF should out damage T1 missiles.
I just went in-game to verify. I'm actually using t2 RHMLs and mega modulated pulse lasers. With t1 missiles I have 136.1 missile DPS listed on my fitting screen with 113.9 turret DPS and 257.2 drone DPS. EFT agrees with my numbers except for the missile DPS, it believes that should be 94.9. I don't remember when I last updated EFT--it was a while back but I do have the RHMLs in my version.
Are you using the same number of BCU's and heat sinks? Also sounds like you've got Heavy missile spec working for you but not pulse laser spec. I'm willing to bet the EFT numbers are taking reload into account as well. That drops actual DPS over time considerably.

Edit: Per my math at my skills T1 missiles from 3 RHML would give 147DPS before reload, 115DPS with reload, and 3 Megapulse 142DPS with T1 multifreqency

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Furthermore, most of my reload time is done outside of combat or at least outside of times I'd be firing them anyway.
You are doing better than I would be there as I'm rarely downing an entire room in one load of missiles using any type. Only way I can see that working is only using the missiles once per room and having the other weapons do the rest of the leg work.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1665 - 2014-05-01 01:58:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Are you using the same number of BCU's and heat sinks? Also sounds like you've got Heavy missile spec working for you but not pulse laser spec. I'm willing to bet the EFT numbers are taking reload into account as well. That drops actual DPS over time considerably.
I have 1 drone damage amplifier II, no heat sink or BCU. EFT has incorrect info on the duration of the launchers, and the reload time does not affect DPS as strongly as we are seeing here. Furthermore, most of my reload time is done outside of combat or at least outside of times I'd be firing them anyway.

My large pulse laser skills are a bit over my medium missile skills, but not all that much. I've only got about a 10% DPS advantage on the missiles skill-wise, or less.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1666 - 2014-05-01 02:10:54 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Edit: Per my math at my skills T1 missiles from 3 RHML would give 147DPS before reload, 115DPS with reload, and 3 Megapulse 142DPS with T1 multifreqency

You are doing better than I would be there as I'm rarely downing an entire room in one load of missiles using any type. Only way I can see that working is only using the missiles once per room and having the other weapons do the rest of the leg work.
That's still Large Pulse Multifrequency DPS at Radio range. Any way you look at it, the heavy missiles would outclass the pulse lasers even if they had cruise missile explosion radius and explosion velocity.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1667 - 2014-05-01 03:11:37 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Problem is, rapid launchers just don't work in any role other than the niche and limited setting of hit and run Pvp.

That couldn't be further from the truth. My armageddon gets more DPS with RHMLs than I do with mega pulse lasers.

I think you might want to check again.

RHML, Navies, 3 X BCU
493.88 Dps - 326.34 including reload
Furies
597.91 - 383.18 including reload

Mega Pulse, ; 3 X Heat Sink
457.73 - Dps Navy Antimatter
Conflag - 510. 80 Dps

In most Pve situations you are far better off using Lasers if, Dps is what counts. RHML if the extra range you can sit at allows you to not take damage while reloading (and you don't mind adding to completion time).

With max skills, including reload;
RHML - 33,613 damage over 103 seconds
Mega Pulse - 47,146 damage over 103 seconds
I think you may be just a little better off using Lasers.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#1668 - 2014-05-01 03:12:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Sgt Ocker wrote:
As a matter of interest, what would you use for tank?

Depends entirely on the application, but I think I'd take door number 3 and see if those elusive Mordu missile-based hulls don't make an appearance this weekend... Rapid heavy launchers can work, but they require a lot of close attention and micromanagement to ensure maximum applied damage.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
stoicfaux
#1669 - 2014-05-01 03:21:51 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
As a matter of interest, what would you use for tank?

Depends entirely on the application, but I think I'd take door number 3 and see if those elusive Mordu missile-based hulls don't make an appearance this weekend... Rapid heavy launchers can work, but they require a lot of close attention and micromanagement to ensure maximum applied damage.

Ugh, do we really need a kinetic damage bonused raven hull? Or a split weapon Scorpion/Raven with rails and missiles?

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php?supergroup=19&return_to=

OTOH, given the attention to drones, aside from the RP concerns (although SoE may alleviate that,) what about Rogue Drone ships?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#1670 - 2014-05-01 03:36:59 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Ugh, do we really need a kinetic damage bonused raven hull? Or a split weapon Scorpion/Raven with rails and missiles? OTOH, given the attention to drones, aside from the RP concerns (although SoE may alleviate that,) what about Rogue Drone ships?

Perish the thought! I would certainly be ok with a Rogue Drone line that was drones, drones and more drones.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Battlingbean
Wings of the Dark Portal
#1671 - 2014-05-01 04:09:04 UTC
What are the Sansha ship's shield recharge times?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1672 - 2014-05-01 04:17:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
I've come to the conclusion that all balance passes, and discussion thereafter is the blind leading the stupid.


Actually maybe the stupid leading the stupid.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#1673 - 2014-05-01 05:42:28 UTC
It just pisses me off that CCP say it's okay for the Vindicator to be OP because it's a pirate ship, but when it comes to other pirate ships, they go back to their 'fear of power creep' mentality.

Oh god.
motie one
Secret Passage
#1674 - 2014-05-01 06:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: motie one
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
As a matter of interest, what would you use for tank?

Depends entirely on the application, but I think I'd take door number 3 and see if those elusive Mordu missile-based hulls don't make an appearance this weekend... Rapid heavy launchers can work, but they require a lot of close attention and micromanagement to ensure maximum applied damage.


Yes the micromanagement issue using sentries with having to operate in a different range profile than the LMJD has definately risen beyond being management and well into micromanagement levels , add RHML into the equation and you are getting into the situation where you would need serious OCD issues to enjoy it.

Light and mediums losing bonus, super sentries that just aren't super, effective loss of 25km drone control range, omnidirectional changes, cap use issues as a result making the 100% passive ship no longer possible. All dealable with, loads of fitting choices but just taking a ship that was underwhelming but solid and safe, and making it simply less pleasant to use. The only fun in it is playing with it incessantly to try to minimax it.

This is on a ship that was simple to manage, and arguably chosen for that reason.

Not really the best possible outcome?
Solutions are available, why does CCP rise not respond?
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1675 - 2014-05-01 07:28:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

All they need is to be faster.


And I see we still aren't reading the dev blog.

They're getting a 43% speed buff.


Yay!

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1676 - 2014-05-01 07:34:14 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

All they need is to be faster.


And I see we still aren't reading the dev blog.

They're getting a 43% speed buff.


Yay!


Yep. Heavies are getting the biggest bonus, but the other 2 sizes are getting some speed increase also.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
motie one
Secret Passage
#1677 - 2014-05-01 07:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: motie one
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

All they need is to be faster.


And I see we still aren't reading the dev blog.

They're getting a 43% speed buff.


Yay!


Yep. Heavies are getting the biggest bonus, but the other 2 sizes are getting some speed increase also.



kaarous? Genuine question, you are talking about speed getting a 43% buff, I am assuming you are referring to the MWD increase, but is it stated somewhere there is a bonus to the overall speed of the drones? I can't find it.
MWD bonuses will get them to the area quicker but would do nothing for their ability to hit targets. That is the major problem with Heavies, that they are lumbering beasties that are effectively almost useless unless you double web your target if it is smaller than a battlecruiser.

If it is overall speed and or tracking speed/range I will cheer too and give them a go again, if it is just a MWD improvement then they get to be useless sooner, not such a buff.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1678 - 2014-05-01 08:32:03 UTC
motie one wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

All they need is to be faster.


And I see we still aren't reading the dev blog.

They're getting a 43% speed buff.


Yay!


Yep. Heavies are getting the biggest bonus, but the other 2 sizes are getting some speed increase also.



kaarous? Genuine question, you are talking about speed getting a 43% buff, I am assuming you are referring to the MWD increase, but is it stated somewhere there is a bonus to the overall speed of the drones? I can't find it.
MWD bonuses will get them to the area quicker but would do nothing for their ability to hit targets. That is the major problem with Heavies, that they are lumbering beasties that are effectively almost useless unless you double web your target if it is smaller than a battlecruiser.

If it is overall speed and or tracking speed/range I will cheer too and give them a go again, if it is just a MWD improvement then they get to be useless sooner, not such a buff.


The dev blog does only mention MWD, yes.

My major issue with heavy drones has always been travel time, honestly. As far as them slugging it out with something small, they honestly still can't do that easily. As has been mentioned, orbit speed is the issue there.

But depending on the distance, in fact honestly not, sentries are the better option for firing at smaller targets. I simply don't throw out heavy drones against small targets. Even unbonused lights are a better choice if you have a target painter.

But that's the part where I'm also rather happy to have a missile bonus now. Even Rapid Heavies, with decent skills, a rig or two, and a target painter can lay down the pain against pretty much anything but an interceptor, or a Cynabal or something.

For that matter, if we aren't considering drone sniping, the Rattlesnake does have a spare highslot for a large neut, which makes the frigate issue fairly moot. (and if we're talking NPC frigates, the sentry drones take care of that reasonably well)

I had also considered that the Rattlesnake may be in a position to make good use of faction drones, since their expense can be abrogated by the increased resiliency of super drones.

Per the dev blog, faction drones will have better tracking and hitpoints than T2 drones, and are getting buffed in all other areas to be equal. So those may certainly be worth a look in regards to damage application.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1679 - 2014-05-01 09:01:21 UTC
motie one wrote:


If it is overall speed and or tracking speed/range I will cheer too and give them a go again, if it is just a MWD improvement then they get to be useless sooner, not such a buff.


I have to disagree. I use ogres on a brawling ishtar very often. I find them very effective. They are even better than you might suppose for disposing of a frigate once the target is webbed and scrammed. This is unsurprising since the natural tracking speed of T2 ogres on an ishtar is 0.495 - nearly that of a light electron blaster II.

The argument for ogres being useless is the same as the argument for heavy assault missiles being useless - that the target needs to be webbed. OK, so web the target! :-)

The travel speed bonus is very welcome as it shortens time between targets once the primary is down. At 2100m/s on an ishtar, ogres are starting to look very attractive indeed since they're now able to keep up with the ship as it travels to its next victim.

Where they may be less effective is when facing an AB nightmare or its cruiser equivalent, the phantasm. That's fine. These ships needed something special to make them useful in pvp. If they have the ability to temporarily escape heavy drones then that's something in their favour. Against these ships, there are always sentries.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
motie one
Secret Passage
#1680 - 2014-05-01 09:10:41 UTC  |  Edited by: motie one
I was trying to clarify the point of microwarp drive being described as speed, I wondered what I was missing. Now I know I had not missed a buff.

Heavy drones as I said have very limited effectiveness "unless you web the Target".
So they really do not make effective superdrones, and having to web the target now is adding even more levels of micromanagement to a ship that has OcD about it's OcD!

Everything can be worked around, everything can be used.
But the question is should it.

It is not a bad ship as offered, just not fun to use, so why should anyone pick it over the alternatives?


Just give the ship a full Flight of 4/5 Gila class medium superdrones or even 2/3 obliterator (double Gila bonus) class medium drones and all the problems and issues magically disappear and you get a good ship.