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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1641 - 2014-04-30 22:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Gila and Rattlesnake, all fit nicely into 1 style of play.
Hit and run brawlers.
Balancing on both Gila and Snake, both are now best suited to Rapid Launchers with Drone Support.
Problem is, rapid launchers just don't work in any role other than the niche and limited setting of hit and run Pvp.

Yes both Snake and Gila can be fit with other launchers but as many have pointed out over the last few weeks. Neither will have anything to make them, "best choice".

Both missile based Guristas ships have potential and with a few minor changes could become "best choice" but with close to 60 pages (out of 80+) of a thread on Pirate Battleships dedicated to only one of those and nothing from Devs to even acknowledge the issues raised, I don't see Guristas becoming "Poster Ships" this time round.

Worm may be in a good place, I won't comment at all on it as I don't fly frigates enough to know what is good.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1642 - 2014-04-30 22:33:57 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Problem is, rapid launchers just don't work in any role other than the niche and limited setting of hit and run Pvp.

That couldn't be further from the truth. My armageddon gets more DPS with RHMLs than I do with mega pulse lasers. And they aren't exactly a hit-and-run device when they spend 100 seconds firing only for 35 loading. I generally have no trouble finding the time to reload them in PVE but I'm sure it isn't difficult in PVP either. I have 3 pulse lasers and 3 RHMLs fit to my Armageddon. I like the pulse lasers because they don't use ammo and I can change their range quickly. But I seem to do most of my important killing with the RHMLs. I can't help feeling the RHMLs are overpowered and the pulse lasers are underpowered. For one, I feel no pressure to fit cruise missile launchers as they would only marginally increase my DPS against large targets--and not all of them as some will not take full damage from cruise missiles. I use a target painter and it makes it easy to shoot frigates with only the 3 RHMLs, though of course I have drones for that too. Basically my armageddon is a solopwnmobile, and with the new salvage drones, mobile tractor unit, and mobile depot, I don't even have to dock in stations except to replace lost drones or drop loot. I carry alternate fittings with me and can salvage and tractor as I make kills. I can refit in combat, and the NPCs seem to always ignore my anchored structures. Most of the time I spend in station is talking to agents; I usually don't use any other services before I undock again. My armageddon gets a net DPS of over 500 with mixed weapons and a heavy tank fit, and can apply the majority of that DPS to very small targets.

How is this even remotely reasonable??

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#1643 - 2014-04-30 22:50:21 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I can't help feeling the RHMLs are overpowered and the pulse lasers are underpowered.

This would only be you... This opinion is not shared by the vast majority

Perhaps on an unbonused/non-missile hull they're great, but everything else (including torpedoes) will outperform them on a Raven, Scorpion or Typhoon. If rapid heavy launchers actually received all the hull bonuses (explosion velocity, explosion radius and missile velocity) - it would be another matter entirely.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1644 - 2014-04-30 23:14:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Problem is, rapid launchers just don't work in any role other than the niche and limited setting of hit and run Pvp.

That couldn't be further from the truth. My armageddon gets more DPS with RHMLs than I do with mega pulse lasers. And they aren't exactly a hit-and-run device when they spend 100 seconds firing only for 35 loading. I generally have no trouble finding the time to reload them in PVE but I'm sure it isn't difficult in PVP either. I have 3 pulse lasers and 3 RHMLs fit to my Armageddon. I like the pulse lasers because they don't use ammo and I can change their range quickly. But I seem to do most of my important killing with the RHMLs. I can't help feeling the RHMLs are overpowered and the pulse lasers are underpowered. For one, I feel no pressure to fit cruise missile launchers as they would only marginally increase my DPS against large targets--and not all of them as some will not take full damage from cruise missiles. I use a target painter and it makes it easy to shoot frigates with only the 3 RHMLs, though of course I have drones for that too. Basically my armageddon is a solopwnmobile, and with the new salvage drones, mobile tractor unit, and mobile depot, I don't even have to dock in stations except to replace lost drones or drop loot. I carry alternate fittings with me and can salvage and tractor as I make kills. I can refit in combat, and the NPCs seem to always ignore my anchored structures. Most of the time I spend in station is talking to agents; I usually don't use any other services before I undock again. My armageddon gets a net DPS of over 500 with mixed weapons and a heavy tank fit, and can apply the majority of that DPS to very small targets.

How is this even remotely reasonable??

What are you loading each with? If you are doing something like Fury v Scorch then yes, RHML, adjusted for reload will win out on max skills, but not by much. And such would be expected. Going with the highest damage ammo on RHML vs longer range on Megapulse SHOULD favor RHML.

That said, IN Gamma is about the same and IN MF tilts the scale in favor of megapulse.

But one thing that concerns me about your analysis is that 500DPS is your entry point for solopwnmobile. A 4TP, faction cruise golem is probably putting the same if not greater DPS on smaller targets while having more range, better tank, ewar immunity in bastion and more raw DPS than 500 on larger targets.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1645 - 2014-04-30 23:28:11 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

All they need is to be faster.


And I see we still aren't reading the dev blog.

They're getting a 43% speed buff.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1646 - 2014-04-30 23:33:07 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I generally have no trouble finding the time to reload them in PVE but I'm sure it isn't difficult in PVP either.

Are you kidding? I can make dinner while doing PvE. So saying that you have no problems with the reload in PvE and therefore the should be fine is PvP is moronic.

In PvP if you haven't finished the fight by the time your first reload comes around you're in trouble. Ergo: hit and run.
motie one
Secret Passage
#1647 - 2014-04-30 23:36:02 UTC  |  Edited by: motie one
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

All they need is to be faster.


And I see we still aren't reading the dev blog.

They're getting a 43% speed buff.



MWD speed boost to target thought is not unfortunately the same as a boost to drone speed, they will engage MWD race to target (better) fire fail to follow stop firing MWD get in range fire lose range on target. Mwd rinse and repeat.

The only effective super drones will be Mediums with heavy damage levels or Heavy drones with all medium stats, but retaining heavy damage. Anything else, does not deserve to be a super drone (worm excepted) including these silly super sentries, which aren't....

The Gila superdrones are worthy of their name 4 or 5 on the rattlesnake and we are good to go.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1648 - 2014-04-30 23:37:57 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

All they need is to be faster.


And I see we still aren't reading the dev blog.

They're getting a 43% speed buff.

Orbit speed is staying the same, so they are still quite far away from consistently applying damage to fast targets, they'll just catch back up while not firing faster than before.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1649 - 2014-04-30 23:44:47 UTC
motie one wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

All they need is to be faster.


And I see we still aren't reading the dev blog.

They're getting a 43% speed buff.



MWD speed boost to target thought is not unfortunately the same as a boost to drone speed, they will engage MWD race to target (better) fire fail to follow stop firing MWD get in range fire lose range on target. Mwd rinse and repeat.

The only effective super drones will be Mediums with heavy damage levels or Heavy drones with all medium stats, but retaining heavy damage.


Say that then.

Tell them that. They've clearly listened so far about how heavy drones have issues with travel time. But stop hanging the entire thing out and pretending it's not an option and never will be. They're aware of the problem.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1650 - 2014-04-30 23:49:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Say that then.

Tell them that. They've clearly listened so far about how heavy drones have issues with travel time. But stop hanging the entire thing out and pretending it's not an option and never will be. They're aware of the problem.
Doesn't really need said, it's already realized. The blog alluded to this being intentional for the very reasons people hate using drones against fast targets. That said in the case of heavies it's at least somewhat compensated for now. So it should be better.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1651 - 2014-04-30 23:52:52 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Say that then.

Tell them that. They've clearly listened so far about how heavy drones have issues with travel time. But stop hanging the entire thing out and pretending it's not an option and never will be. They're aware of the problem.
Doesn't really need said, it's already realized. The blog alluded to this being intentional for the very reasons people hate using drones against fast targets. That said in the case of heavies it's at least somewhat compensated for now. So it should be better.


Especially in regards to having a lowslot drone tracking module. That is a bigger buff to the Gila than people realize. The Snake? Not as much, but I still want to get my hands on the Super Heavy drones once SiSi hits.

That will be the key I think. We can give comprehensive feedback once we can do something besides theorycraft with Pyfa.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
motie one
Secret Passage
#1652 - 2014-05-01 00:02:50 UTC  |  Edited by: motie one
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
motie one wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

All they need is to be faster.


And I see we still aren't reading the dev blog.

They're getting a 43% speed buff.



MWD speed boost to target thought is not unfortunately the same as a boost to drone speed, they will engage MWD race to target (better) fire fail to follow stop firing MWD get in range fire lose range on target. Mwd rinse and repeat.

The only effective super drones will be Mediums with heavy damage levels or Heavy drones with all medium stats, but retaining heavy damage.


Say that then.

Tell them that. They've clearly listened so far about how heavy drones have issues with travel time. But stop hanging the entire thing out and pretending it's not an option and never will be. They're aware of the problem.

one thousand six hundred and 39 posts and about 3000 deleted ... possibly.... .
probably a thousand of those posts discuss exactly this. If they don't realise by now, well, what could one say. I believe they got so afraid of the reaction to losing sentries they froze. The Rattler does not need 2 ogres or sentries with more DPS, It needs super drones. They have already invented them for the Gila, Roll out 4 or 5 on the rattler.
Even give It 2 mediums size drones bonused to match a flight of ogres if they like, but slow heavies will not cut it, medium stats and Power to suit a large battleship and call them "onslaught" drones as an example. Regarding skills etc, treat them as a medium drone.

Add a few posts in the cruiser thread too, They get an effective super drone. now it is the rattlesnakes turn.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1653 - 2014-05-01 00:24:51 UTC
motie one wrote:
They get an effective super drone. now it is the rattlesnakes turn.


I would argue that the super sentries are not only fine, but arguably overpowered.

And the issues with heavies are across the board with heavies, not with the super drone concept.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#1654 - 2014-05-01 00:33:20 UTC
Without seeing the new proposed drone modules or the new Gecko (cost, availability) - I'm really not sure how anyone can have a realistic opinion of the Rattlesnake.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1655 - 2014-05-01 00:35:56 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Without seeing the new proposed drone modules or the new Gecko (cost, availability) - I'm really not sure how anyone can have a realistic opinion of the Rattlesnake.


And that's basically been my entire point the whole time.

I reject all of "the sky is falling!" because without fail, opinions like that are failing to take the proposed drone changes into account.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#1656 - 2014-05-01 00:42:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And that's basically been my entire point the whole time. I reject all of "the sky is falling!" because without fail, opinions like that are failing to take the proposed drone changes into account.

I don't think the sky is necessarily falling, but it's definitely not clear skies ahead, either. Not like the Bhaalgorn or Nightmare, which are basically done deals insofar as the vast majority are concerned.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1657 - 2014-05-01 00:56:40 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And that's basically been my entire point the whole time. I reject all of "the sky is falling!" because without fail, opinions like that are failing to take the proposed drone changes into account.

I don't think the sky is necessarily falling, but it's definitely not clear skies ahead, either. Not like the Bhaalgorn or Nightmare, which are basically done deals insofar as the vast majority are concerned.


Not really enthused about the Nightmare, to be honest. My use for the ship will not change. A shield laser platform for Incursions. Adding a pointless afterburner bonus to it? Ok, a Micro Jump Drive is still the better module.

The Bhaalgorn I am just happy didn't get ruined like the Ashimmu. That lost highslot and powergrid really hurts.

Ditto the Vindicator and the Machariel, especially after they took the bat to the Vigilant.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1658 - 2014-05-01 01:08:37 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
What are you loading each with? If you are doing something like Fury v Scorch then yes, RHML, adjusted for reload will win out on max skills, but not by much. And such would be expected. Going with the highest damage ammo on RHML vs longer range on Megapulse SHOULD favor RHML.

That said, IN Gamma is about the same and IN MF tilts the scale in favor of megapulse.

But one thing that concerns me about your analysis is that 500DPS is your entry point for solopwnmobile. A 4TP, faction cruise golem is probably putting the same if not greater DPS on smaller targets while having more range, better tank, ewar immunity in bastion and more raw DPS than 500 on larger targets.

I should have mentioned: my drone skills are terrible, and I'm using tech 1 pulse lasers and RHMLs. The Pulse lasers only barely match the RHML range with radio L, and still have less DPS with multifrequency.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1659 - 2014-05-01 01:13:22 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
In PvP if you haven't finished the fight by the time your first reload comes around you're in trouble. Ergo: hit and run.
In my experience, I don't spend much time shooting in PVP and spend much longer periods of time between fights. There might be a problem if I was trying to swap ammo types on the fly, but I wouldn't expect to actually run out of loaded missiles before I have a very broad chance to reload.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1660 - 2014-05-01 01:40:25 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
What are you loading each with? If you are doing something like Fury v Scorch then yes, RHML, adjusted for reload will win out on max skills, but not by much. And such would be expected. Going with the highest damage ammo on RHML vs longer range on Megapulse SHOULD favor RHML.

That said, IN Gamma is about the same and IN MF tilts the scale in favor of megapulse.

But one thing that concerns me about your analysis is that 500DPS is your entry point for solopwnmobile. A 4TP, faction cruise golem is probably putting the same if not greater DPS on smaller targets while having more range, better tank, ewar immunity in bastion and more raw DPS than 500 on larger targets.

I should have mentioned: my drone skills are terrible, and I'm using tech 1 pulse lasers and RHMLs. The Pulse lasers only barely match the RHML range with radio L, and still have less DPS with multifrequency.
There must be a difference in related skillsets for the weapons I'd imagine. I'm doing most of the math by hand but after double checking I'm relatively confident in my numbers. You are right about the range not matching with T1 ammo but at equivalent skillsets MF should out damage T1 missiles.