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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Author
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1401 - 2014-04-25 16:13:19 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Personally I would gladly sacrifice part of the new missile bonus on both Gila and Snake for 5 m bandwidth on Gila, 25 m to Drone bay on Snake. Drop 1 Launcher, keep 10% bonus to missiles - 50% Role bonus to Lights for Gila and Snake.

Perish the thought! What we need is another missile launcher and another low slot, give it 100% missile velocity and screw the drone bonuses.

Arthur, I would be happy with a great missile boat or a great drone boat. I would be most happy with a boat that could be either and do both roles well depending on fitting choices. As it stands? This sort of wierd mishmash is not so appealing though.. Maybe i'm not doing it rightLol


This will not happen. Ship with 2 powerfull weapon system which can be used as primary usually end up in crazy fits using both system to create a monster. See TFI for what the results were when people saw they could use 2 weapon system at the same time.

Now you want to create the same situation but on a ship which also happen to have a tanking bonus to make it even easier to tank it with few slots.

The snake will be a large droneboat instead of a general droneboat.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#1402 - 2014-04-25 16:24:12 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

I think you have said this far far better than I did. I am in complete agreement. this is how it should be. Tiny changes as already indicated, and getting the drone side back into balance, and there is a wonderful ship that will fit in with the other pirate vessels.

I hope we can get there.


This is how it is as currently proposed.

It would be better if the Superdrone bonus was brought in line with the standard drone bonus, and with the superdrone bonus of the 2 lighter hulls, but as it currently stands that is exactly the situation the ship is in now. There is no reason not to strike a balance anywhere you like on using missiles and drones.

If the superdrone bonus gets adjusted, and I hope it does, it would most likely be to mirror the frigate end of the spectrum, and give the DPS of 8 with the HP of 12.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1403 - 2014-04-25 23:38:41 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

I think you have said this far far better than I did. I am in complete agreement. this is how it should be. Tiny changes as already indicated, and getting the drone side back into balance, and there is a wonderful ship that will fit in with the other pirate vessels.

I hope we can get there.


This is how it is as currently proposed.

It would be better if the Superdrone bonus was brought in line with the standard drone bonus, and with the superdrone bonus of the 2 lighter hulls, but as it currently stands that is exactly the situation the ship is in now. There is no reason not to strike a balance anywhere you like on using missiles and drones.

If the superdrone bonus gets adjusted, and I hope it does, it would most likely be to mirror the frigate end of the spectrum, and give the DPS of 8 with the HP of 12.


Well not quite, definitely more of a missile emphasis with the current proposals, but so nearly there, so near.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1404 - 2014-04-25 23:48:32 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Well not quite, definitely more of a missile emphasis with the current proposals, but so nearly there, so near.


Forest. Trees.

There is one missile bonus, one drone bonus, and one shield resist bonus. There is no emphasis anywhere, that's why it's such a versatile ship.

You really need to knock off your biased thinking.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1405 - 2014-04-26 00:14:45 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

If you are already in orbit at 10k and see heavy drones pop out, align away, your doing 3 to 4 X the speed the Heavies are, you'll quickly pull range on them and as your doing so you are locking them up.. There is only 2, not too hard to target 2 Drones. The drones have you aggressed so will follow as far as you lead, they can not fire upon you unless you stop and allow them to drop from MWD into orbit (drone activation proximity).
You will take a few hits from the drones while dragging them but as long as you keep them more than 5,001 m from you, they can not apply meaningful Dps.
Treat Super Heavies as you would an attacking frigate. React accordingly. If you would die to 2 T1 frigates with a maximum range of 5,000 m and can only shoot while orbiting at a maximum speed of 600 m/s, you will die to 2 super heavies.

Probably nowhere near as easy as it sounds but a bunch of frigates shouldn't be able to kill a carrier either, yet it happens.


You carry the same number of flights of heavies/sentries as before. 400 m3 = 3 flights and some lights, 175 m3 = 3 flights and some lights.

Don't use heavies against fast, untackled targets capable of burning away from you. Use sentries. If you do use them and someone breaks your tackle, recall them and deploy sentries. I can't believe how many time I've had to say this, is it really so hard to understand?

2 flights of sentries 1 spare for each flight (just in case) - Tried heavies on the Snake once, near doubled my completion time on every type of anom I run.
Used to carry - 1 Flight Valkyrie ll, 1 Flight Warrior ll and ECM, aside from the sentries - Can't do that post update.

What I don't understand is, if heavy drones are so awesome in Pvp, why don't we see, the only ship in game with a (pretty good on paper) heavy drone bonus use them in Pvp? Ishtar Sentry gangs are common place, don't think I've seen an Ishtar Heavy Drone gang.

Heavy Drones don't get used in main stream Pvp now - that will change little post summer patch.
Snake has no place in Pvp now - that also is very unlikely to change.

My post was referring to an inty gang tackling a "PVE" Snake. I don't know many who run anoms or any other type of Pve, who would fit Web and Scram "in case" you get tackled. Don't bother mentioning Refitting at a Deployable, by the time you got to it and refit - Your in structure or close to it.

NB; If you drop sentries they aren't going to hit fast ceptors well enough to be useful, without a couple of scripted Omnis, add tackle + prop mod - not much room left for tank.

Your response is simplistic and I wonder if you actually use drones, let alone drones with a Snake at all?
Is it really so hard to understand, drone mechanics aren't that simple. The change to "Super Drones" is not going to change that.
3 flights of mixed, heavies & Sentries - You have no spares - Lose 1 Drone from 1 flight - You lose 50% of your Drone Dps and have to switch to a different drone type, or you carry 1 flight of Sentries, 1 of Heavies and a spare for each. Which do you pick, Dps or speed, short range or long range, talk about micro management nightmares.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1406 - 2014-04-26 00:32:20 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

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Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1407 - 2014-04-26 01:01:37 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Well not quite, definitely more of a missile emphasis with the current proposals, but so nearly there, so near.


Forest. Trees.

There is one missile bonus, one drone bonus, and one shield resist bonus. There is no emphasis anywhere, that's why it's such a versatile ship.

You really need to knock off your biased thinking.

Forest - Trees is about right - Once the trees are gone so is the forest, unproven drone changes (can't say buffs - yet) is the chainsaw.
Until "Super Drones" can do more than show paper Dps, the emphasis is very much - Missiles then Drones.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1408 - 2014-04-26 06:54:22 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
My post was referring to an inty gang tackling a "PVE" Snake. I don't know many who run anoms or any other type of Pve, who would fit Web and Scram "in case" you get tackled. Don't bother mentioning Refitting at a Deployable, by the time you got to it and refit - Your in structure or close to it.

NB; If you drop sentries they aren't going to hit fast ceptors well enough to be useful, without a couple of scripted Omnis, add tackle + prop mod - not much room left for tank.



I'm confused as to what's stopping you from having the Mob Depot already deployed next to you in the Anom ready to refit incase you get tackled. Then when the inty comes in you can refit with RLML's and a Heavy neut. You could even have a weband scram ready.

Also, if you're not up for have the mob depot ready what's stopping you from aligning when a hostile enters the system? That way you can't be tackled. as by the time he lands you will be fully aligned and 100km away from him. Yes you will have been forced to pull your sentry drones but the Snake also has almost the same missile DPS as a Raven. You can still be dropping the rats, albeit at half the rate you were which was double the rate a Raven can do it in the first place!, wait for the hostile to leave then stop and redeploy your drones.

The Snake is going to be phenominal at anomaly ripping. It's also going to be far better than a Domi as the Domi will lose almost all of it's DPS when it has to pull it's sentries in order to align when the hostiles enter.

I thought pre-aligning before hostiles land in your anom was an SOP. Guess I was wrong and should go hunting for all of these idiots in sitting in anoms at zero and stock still.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1409 - 2014-04-26 07:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Perhaps the pirate changes should have been left until after the drone changes. Change EWAR drones to not be terrible, tell all the Guristas pilots "We're giving your ships ewar drone bonuses instead of attack drone bonuses" and give the SoE ships the superdrones.

Initiate rage, tears, and an astoundingly logical new development path for Guristas while also making SoE ships a lot nicer to fly.

Also: Ataraxia - Even if you become enraged when someone says it to you, you are pretty stubbornly refusing to look at the ship from any point of view except your own.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1410 - 2014-04-26 07:13:10 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
My post was referring to an inty gang tackling a "PVE" Snake. I don't know many who run anoms or any other type of Pve, who would fit Web and Scram "in case" you get tackled. Don't bother mentioning Refitting at a Deployable, by the time you got to it and refit - Your in structure or close to it.

NB; If you drop sentries they aren't going to hit fast ceptors well enough to be useful, without a couple of scripted Omnis, add tackle + prop mod - not much room left for tank.



I'm confused as to what's stopping you from having the Mob Depot already deployed next to you in the Anom ready to refit incase you get tackled. Then when the inty comes in you can refit with RLML's and a Heavy neut. You could even have a weband scram ready.

Also, if you're not up for have the mob depot ready what's stopping you from aligning when a hostile enters the system? That way you can't be tackled. as by the time he lands you will be fully aligned and 100km away from him. Yes you will have been forced to pull your sentry drones but the Snake also has almost the same missile DPS as a Raven. You can still be dropping the rats, albeit at half the rate you were which was double the rate a Raven can do it in the first place!, wait for the hostile to leave then stop and redeploy your drones.

The Snake is going to be phenominal at anomaly ripping. It's also going to be far better than a Domi as the Domi will lose almost all of it's DPS when it has to pull it's sentries in order to align when the hostiles enter.

I thought pre-aligning before hostiles land in your anom was an SOP. Guess I was wrong and should go hunting for all of these idiots in sitting in anoms at zero and stock still.


I have tried, to get how your methods of restoring some ability to boost survival really help or are relevant to the rebalancing of the ship. The is some validity to some of them, but overall not really much help here.

The rattlesnake is worrying, because not only does the superdrone concept have downsides, which although are not horiffic, need something to balance them, the two that can, are missing. Which are increased power and particularly hitpoints and the presence or introduction of bonuses smaller drones. The missile bonuses severely as a side effect reduces drone control range, massively reducing the time available to deal with kiting ships, as it is trivial to avoid being shot. Try dancing in and out of drone control range, you are going to send your victim insane with frustration, as he just gives up with his drones altogether.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1411 - 2014-04-26 07:14:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Well not quite, definitely more of a missile emphasis with the current proposals, but so nearly there, so near.


I assure you, it is quite obvious to literally everyone except you that the missile emphasis is extremely deliberate and quite definitely intended.

Please get it through your head that this is the way CCP wants it to be and no amount of arguing from you - or anyone else - will change that.

Please get it through your head that smaller drones will not get HP or damage bonuses on the Rattlesnake - no matter how much you argue, flame or abuse others.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1412 - 2014-04-26 07:21:12 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

The missile bonuses severely as a side effect reduces drone control range, massively reducing the time available to deal with kiting ships, as it is trivial to avoid being shot.


Please stop lying.

Nothing forces you to fit the entire rack of launchers. If you want to fit for drone control range, it is still possible and viable to do so.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1413 - 2014-04-26 07:23:42 UTC
If you can dance in & out of a 75km control range and keep a point. You aren't in an interceptor. You are in a recon, with a T3 boosting you also. Meaning the whole worry of interceptor gangs isn't relevant to this discussion, we are now talking a serious sized Blops gang. Meaning there are also several dozen bombers shredding you in 10 seconds flat. And it's irrelevant what sort of BS or fittings you had available.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1414 - 2014-04-26 07:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
If you can dance in & out of a 75km control range and keep a point. You aren't in an interceptor. You are in a recon, with a T3 boosting you also. Meaning the whole worry of interceptor gangs isn't relevant to this discussion, we are now talking a serious sized Blops gang. Meaning there are also several dozen bombers shredding you in 10 seconds flat. And it's irrelevant what sort of BS or fittings you had available.



With the time it takes to get into warp, unless you react very very quickly with maximum skills a single interceptor can run rings around you repointing at leisure and dancing in and out of your drone control range. But it is the first few seconds that matter, he only needs to avoid you for the first cycle, until help arrives, that is when you can no longer kill him effectively, getting out by the skin of your teeth, It would be touch and go before the changes, now just dead.

So as for drones, they just are not even worth considering when encountering an interceptor now , single or otherwise one may as well accept that if pounced on you are already dead.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1415 - 2014-04-26 07:43:34 UTC
Let's analyze that latest statement/gigantic lie, shall we?

Assuming a long point here, so 24km range, slightly less than 29km with heat.

Apparently an interceptor pilot can dance in and out at will within a 47km range, long enough to keep a Rattlesnake pointed for any length of time.

Anyone else find that less than credible?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1416 - 2014-04-26 11:03:14 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
What I don't understand is, if heavy drones are so awesome in Pvp, why don't we see, the only ship in game with a (pretty good on paper) heavy drone bonus use them in Pvp? Ishtar Sentry gangs are common place, don't think I've seen an Ishtar Heavy Drone gang.

Heavy Drones don't get used in main stream Pvp now - that will change little post summer patch.
Snake has no place in Pvp now - that also is very unlikely to change.

My post was referring to an inty gang tackling a "PVE" Snake. I don't know many who run anoms or any other type of Pve, who would fit Web and Scram "in case" you get tackled. Don't bother mentioning Refitting at a Deployable, by the time you got to it and refit - Your in structure or close to it.

NB; If you drop sentries they aren't going to hit fast ceptors well enough to be useful, without a couple of scripted Omnis, add tackle + prop mod - not much room left for tank.

Your response is simplistic and I wonder if you actually use drones, let alone drones with a Snake at all?
Is it really so hard to understand, drone mechanics aren't that simple. The change to "Super Drones" is not going to change that.
3 flights of mixed, heavies & Sentries - You have no spares - Lose 1 Drone from 1 flight - You lose 50% of your Drone Dps and have to switch to a different drone type, or you carry 1 flight of Sentries, 1 of Heavies and a spare for each. Which do you pick, Dps or speed, short range or long range, talk about micro management nightmares.


You misunderstand, I haven't said anything about heavies being awesome. I've been talking about the conditions required to make good use of them - hard tackle. Indeed, it should be obvious that if hard tackle is required, then heavies aren't very good. The huge MWD speed increase they're getting will help, but you'll still be better off using sentries against anything at range.

Rattlesnake will be used occasionally in small gang situations where gank 'n' tank is important and mobility isn't. Niche, sure. However, the fleet Rattler may become a thing, to bypass drone assigning limitations. Mind you, I remember people saying the same thing about Navy Scorps, and it didn't really happen. So we'll see. Regardless, these are the PVP environments.

I'm not interested in PVE Rattlesnakes getting ganked, that tells us nothing useful about the ship. Apart from that you shouldn't take PVE fits into PVP. I don't run anomalies, so I don't know how much tank is needed, but if I was fitting an anomaly Rattlesnake, my first three mods would be MJD, web and scram.

Yes, sentries won't hit interceptors. Neither will heavies. Nor do lights very well, as they can't maintain themselves in activation range against a MWDing interceptor. But force that interceptor to come into scramble range with a MJD, then you can web it down and missiles and even unbonused lights will hurt.

I don't think I said that super drones would change things much. In fact, I think my general position was that they wouldn't change things much, as you say!

Three flights of mixed, heavies and sentries? I don't understand, what is this flight of "mixed"? Six drones of a mix of sentries and heavies gives you a spare of each, or you take three flights of heavies/sentries with no spares, along with five lights for the 175 m3 bay. This is almost identical to the current situation of 15 heavies/sentries, where you can take three flights without spares, or two flights with spares, and five lights. What's changing?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#1417 - 2014-04-26 15:00:01 UTC
The balance is obvious.

The drone system lost effectiveness at the small end of the spectrum, it needs to gain it at the high end to compensate.

The missiles are fine as they are. While not as flexible as drones the ship has a wide array of options for dealing with craft of al sizes.

Nothing has changed in the case of the solo PvE guy getting attacked. You dont fend them off with light drones, you warp out. They didnt engage with anything less than they felt the job would get done with.

It might make an interesting bait, with the power to engage attackers and survive long enough for support to get in the fight.

It certainly can claim a place in any fleet as interdiction support. There is plenty for it to do.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1418 - 2014-04-26 15:52:55 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Removed some posts that were off topic/personal attacks. Keep it civil and clean please. Thank you.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1419 - 2014-04-26 17:19:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
This thread stopped being productive (for the most part) 60 pages back… I'm going to reiterate what I and a few others suggested: it would be nice to get a dev response (any dev response). There's a request for a bit more CPU on the Rattlesnake which I think is totally reasonable and could be accommodated, barring a good reason why it shouldn't.

As for the umpteen drone request change to the Rattlesnake, it's just not going to happen. If this wasn't already abundantly clear from what's been established with the Worm and Gila, CCP has previously indicated their desire to start differentiating between some of the different drone-based hulls. The SoE line is more drone-based and the Guristas line is now more missile-based, so there's at least some distinction between the two. I'm not trying to infer that the Rattlesnake is getting a nerf to buff the Nestor, but the Nestor definitely needs some TLC - so this isn't necessarily the worst thing that could happen.

Yes, it somewhat sucks that the Rattlesnake is no longer the dual-sniper it once was, but this isn't to say that it still can't be configured to excel at this role. Missiles are getting a +50% damage bonus, so the extra launcher is really gravy. It can certainly be dropped for a second DDA if so desired. What no one else is considering is that we're going to see passive low-slot drone omnis in the summer expansion as well, which frees up 2-3 mid slots. So how could a Rattlesnake potentially be fit?

• 4x launchers and 2x DLAs
• 3x hydraulic to actually get a bit more than the 50% missile velocity bonus lost
• 3x DDA, 2x DOM and 1x ballistic control in the lows (even with only one BC you're still way ahead)
• 1x MJD, 1-2x target painters and 4-5x mids assigned to the tank of your choice (target painters are obsolete if you utilize rapid heavy launchers, in which case you'll have a 95km-ish range and might as well drop the second DDA for the 5th launcher)

We're apparently getting a missile-based Pirate line at some point (maybe announced next weekend at FanFest?), and I would really love to see a solely drone-based Pirate class (Rogue drones anyone?).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1420 - 2014-04-26 17:25:42 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
rats shoot defenders at my rattlers cruise missiles now but they rarely seem to actually destroy any.
Try shooting a Serp Battleship for an extended time, having it under TP.
All your shots will do the same damage, and then the one or the other will be just 75% of it.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
• 4x launchers and 2x DLAs
• 3x hydraulic to actually get a bit more than the 50% missile velocity bonus lost
• 3x DDA, 2x DOM and 1x ballistic control in the lows (even with only one BC you're still way ahead)
• 1x MJD, 1-2x target painters and 4-5x mids assigned to the tank of your choice

We're apparently getting a missile-based Pirate line at some point (maybe announced next weekend at FanFest?), and I would really love to see a solely drone-based Pirate class (Rogue drones anyone?).

I'd rather use 5 launchers and 3 rigors.
You didn't put any omnilinks on that ship.

...DOM? You mean the new drone tracking module? Or I don't know what. One could work, but I'd rather have them as active module if they are going to be like the balance between TE and TC, and more BCs.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.