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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1001 - 2014-04-20 19:10:00 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
baltec1 wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:



Firstly, this is a rattlesnake, I am sure there will be a lot of EFT fitting discussions later, but not really helpful at the moment.

The rattlesnake is a drone boat, so discussing drones is somewhat appropriate.

Solving a potential clusterfuck is not usually described as a philosophy but whatever.


Its not a pure droneboat, its a hybrid of missiles and drones. You are not taking into account everything involved with this ship.

Also people experienced in flying battleships can figure out fits just based upon the stats in the OP.


But not always good ones. And often not helpful in the slightest. Rest Answered above^^^^^

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Stein Backstabber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1002 - 2014-04-20 19:10:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Stein Backstabber
It WAS a drone boat, it is not any more. Now it is a split system. A far more effective one, that you dont like it being a drone boat any more, doesnt change that. Oh and by the way, it was always better not treating it as a drone system and actually using the missiles.

I can assure you, I've first hand experience of what 1300-1400DPS gotten down looks like and it's obscene. I've seen a typhoon fleet kill two battleships to my one in a Mach. The only thing balancing that, is is a two slot, wafer thin tank - a problem not shared by the rattler.

The fact this ship will reach to well over 1600 with a monser tank to boot is....well, it's over the top tbh. It should probably not have the 5th launcher.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1003 - 2014-04-20 19:17:40 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


But not always good ones. And often not helpful in the slightest. Rest Answered above^^^^^


No the rest was not answered above. You are for whatever reason ignoring that the rattle is not a pure droneboat. The bonused missiles need to be taken into account here and not ignored.

As for the fits, its very clear that this ships is going to be very good at solo, small gang and even large fleet operations. Its great in PVE too and will have zero issues with frigates. Infact it is most likely the best suited battleship for taking on frigates.
Stein Backstabber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1004 - 2014-04-20 19:28:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Stein Backstabber
Because we're discussing balance and nothing you're suggesting remotely addresses the fact the ship is a monster with the revisions.

If it had full drone bonuses across all sizes, there would be no fitting compromises, no choices (hell, they're a scant nod as it is).

It's like I said - your issue is philisophical, not balance related. You're not happy it is no longer (not that it was) a "pure" drone boat and whilst that is understandable it is blinding you somewhat to the fact this new ship is a massive improvement in effective gameplay terms and power projection.


You may not like its new flavour, but that doesnt allow us to ignore game balance.
Selphentine
Pastafaris
#1005 - 2014-04-20 19:40:21 UTC
Except for the missing goathangars on all the ships it seems pretty fine to me. =)
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1006 - 2014-04-20 20:10:17 UTC
May I present two crowds for the Rattlesnake:

Crowd 1:
"Thanks for buff, much appreciated."

Crowd 2:
"Wtf Rattlesnkae no bonused light drones anymore, only more damage with missiles, total droneboat-wrecking-shot, stop ruining my L4-Rattlesnake"

I don't agree with Crowd 2. You now got the resistbonused missile-equivalent to a Navy Domi. So basically, you got a navy domi, but you get to use (cruise) missiles (which are honestly better for pvp aswell together with drones compared to blasters)

If you don't want your rattlesnake anymore cause it only got more dps as opposed to before, by all means please go ahead and throw yours onto the market :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1007 - 2014-04-20 22:04:07 UTC
Ships don't get to have two fully bonused, full rack weapon systems.

They took away light and medium drones from the Rattlesnake to compensate for the fact that it basically does.

Asking for it to be otherwise is asking for what exists to be nerfed in some way, or for the boat to get straight buffed when it's already arguably overpowered.

Which is just not happening.

The end.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Joe Boirele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1008 - 2014-04-20 23:14:15 UTC
So far, it seems like most of the problems people bring up with the rattlesnake is a loss of versatility. Personally, I think that getting bonused launchers of all sizes fixes that (mostly), but another option could be granting the RS a drone tracking bonus. That would help with damage application on the smaller targets everyone seems to be complaining about.

Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

"We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1009 - 2014-04-20 23:19:31 UTC
Joe Boirele wrote:
So far, it seems like most of the problems people bring up with the rattlesnake is a loss of versatility. Personally, I think that getting bonused launchers of all sizes fixes that (mostly), but another option could be granting the RS a drone tracking bonus. That would help with damage application on the smaller targets everyone seems to be complaining about.


And it would be the boring shield-domi with shieldresistbonus no one wants.
Joe Boirele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1010 - 2014-04-20 23:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Boirele
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Joe Boirele wrote:
So far, it seems like most of the problems people bring up with the rattlesnake is a loss of versatility. Personally, I think that getting bonused launchers of all sizes fixes that (mostly), but another option could be granting the RS a drone tracking bonus. That would help with damage application on the smaller targets everyone seems to be complaining about.


And it would be the boring shield-domi with shieldresistbonus no one wants.


How? I didn't mean replacing another bonus. Also, I was trying to create a solution that would (hopefully) satisfy the unhappy people without being too OP. If you don't like it, that's fine.

Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

"We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1011 - 2014-04-21 00:07:37 UTC
Joe Boirele wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Joe Boirele wrote:
So far, it seems like most of the problems people bring up with the rattlesnake is a loss of versatility. Personally, I think that getting bonused launchers of all sizes fixes that (mostly), but another option could be granting the RS a drone tracking bonus. That would help with damage application on the smaller targets everyone seems to be complaining about.


And it would be the boring shield-domi with shieldresistbonus no one wants.


How? I didn't mean replacing another bonus. Also, I was trying to create a solution that would (hopefully) satisfy the unhappy people without being too OP. If you don't like it, that's fine.

The other problem, drone tracking bonus "only" assists sentries. I would like to give the "super Heavies" a run but not with their current attributes.
If they are to replace Light drones on the snake they need to be able to hit the targets light drones were used for.



I did actually come up with a halfassed fix for this;
Heavy drone role bonus for Snake;
100% to Optimal range
100% to Activation Proximity
OR
100% to orbit velocity
50% optimal range

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1012 - 2014-04-21 00:08:13 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

The other problem, drone tracking bonus "only" assists sentries. I would like to give the "super Heavies" a run but not with their current attributes.


http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/giving-drones-an-assist/?_ga=1.260558404.892815657.1397302543

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1013 - 2014-04-21 00:28:06 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Joe Boirele wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Joe Boirele wrote:
So far, it seems like most of the problems people bring up with the rattlesnake is a loss of versatility. Personally, I think that getting bonused launchers of all sizes fixes that (mostly), but another option could be granting the RS a drone tracking bonus. That would help with damage application on the smaller targets everyone seems to be complaining about.


And it would be the boring shield-domi with shieldresistbonus no one wants.


How? I didn't mean replacing another bonus. Also, I was trying to create a solution that would (hopefully) satisfy the unhappy people without being too OP. If you don't like it, that's fine.

The other problem, drone tracking bonus "only" assists sentries. I would like to give the "super Heavies" a run but not with their current attributes.
If they are to replace Light drones on the snake they need to be able to hit the targets light drones were used for.



I did actually come up with a halfassed fix for this;
Heavy drone role bonus for Snake;
100% to Optimal range
100% to Activation Proximity
OR
100% to orbit velocity
50% optimal range

Without looking exactly in detail at the figures, I don't want to get too excited, but initial thoughts are that that would be a VERY good idea. And no more damage so the EFT warriors won't get their knickers in a bunch.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1014 - 2014-04-21 00:59:44 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

The other problem, drone tracking bonus "only" assists sentries. I would like to give the "super Heavies" a run but not with their current attributes.


http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/giving-drones-an-assist/?_ga=1.260558404.892815657.1397302543

Did you read the whole post or simply stop at that sentence and think you had the "answer" and I somehow missed it?

Increase in MWD speed is only a very very slight buff to heavy drones - If drones fired whilst in MWD mode there would be no problem.
They don't, so will spend less time in catchup (MWD) mode than they do now but will not apply anything close to full Dps to anything moving faster than it can orbit.


-_-_-
Arthur; Yes there are rigs that can greatly increase the application issues with heavy drones but the trade off is changing what is now one of the best tanking drone battleships into a missile boat, with far less EHP than is currently available to it.
Give Guristas cruiser and battleship a special role bonus -- 37.5% reduced reload time for Rapid Launchers (21 second reload). Could be a nice trade off, without making either ship OP.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1015 - 2014-04-21 01:03:06 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

The other problem, drone tracking bonus "only" assists sentries. I would like to give the "super Heavies" a run but not with their current attributes.


http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/giving-drones-an-assist/?_ga=1.260558404.892815657.1397302543

Did you read the whole post or simply stop at that sentence and think you had the "answer" and I somehow missed it?

Increase in MWD speed is only a very very slight buff to heavy drones - If drones fired whilst in MWD mode there would be no problem.
They don't, so will spend less time in catchup (MWD) mode than they do now but will not apply anything close to full Dps to anything moving faster than it can orbit.


-_-_-
Arthur; Yes there are rigs that can greatly increase the application issues with heavy drones but the trade off is changing what is now one of the best tanking drone battleships into a missile boat, with far less EHP than is currently available to it.
Give Guristas cruiser and battleship a special role bonus -- 37.5% reduced reload time for Rapid Launchers (21 second reload). Could be a nice trade off, without making either ship OP.



You hit Both points square on the head. Nice ideas too.

how about Drop the additional launcher and give a 25% bonus to rate of fire, clip size, and reload time? solves the major drone issue, is good for both standard and rapid systems,No increased dps (over the 5th launcher) and gives a choice.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Joe Boirele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1016 - 2014-04-21 01:04:53 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Arthur; Yes there are rigs that can greatly increase the application issues with heavy drones but the trade off is changing what is now one of the best tanking drone battleships into a missile boat, with far less EHP than is currently available to it.
Give Guristas cruiser and battleship a special role bonus -- 37.5% reduced reload time for Rapid Launchers (21 second reload). Could be a nice trade off, without making either ship OP.


That role bonus would probably eliminate any diversity from missile launcher selection.

Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

"We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1017 - 2014-04-21 01:06:42 UTC
Joe Boirele wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Arthur; Yes there are rigs that can greatly increase the application issues with heavy drones but the trade off is changing what is now one of the best tanking drone battleships into a missile boat, with far less EHP than is currently available to it.
Give Guristas cruiser and battleship a special role bonus -- 37.5% reduced reload time for Rapid Launchers (21 second reload). Could be a nice trade off, without making either ship OP.


That role bonus would probably eliminate any diversity from missile launcher selection.


That was his point. He doesn't want missiles to be a thing for this ship, he wants a shield Dominix.

Neither of them seem to realize that the answer is already "nope".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1018 - 2014-04-21 01:10:40 UTC
Hope springs eternal, I suppose.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1019 - 2014-04-21 01:19:21 UTC
Joe Boirele wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Arthur; Yes there are rigs that can greatly increase the application issues with heavy drones but the trade off is changing what is now one of the best tanking drone battleships into a missile boat, with far less EHP than is currently available to it.
Give Guristas cruiser and battleship a special role bonus -- 37.5% reduced reload time for Rapid Launchers (21 second reload). Could be a nice trade off, without making either ship OP.


That role bonus would probably eliminate any diversity from missile launcher selection.


The idea is nice though you must admit, imaginative. Some mechanism to Keep the DLA, give a reason to have the choice to fit Rapid heavy missiles, and keep other missiles good, would really make for interesting options

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1020 - 2014-04-21 01:20:51 UTC
Joe Boirele wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Arthur; Yes there are rigs that can greatly increase the application issues with heavy drones but the trade off is changing what is now one of the best tanking drone battleships into a missile boat, with far less EHP than is currently available to it.
Give Guristas cruiser and battleship a special role bonus -- 37.5% reduced reload time for Rapid Launchers (21 second reload). Could be a nice trade off, without making either ship OP.


That role bonus would probably eliminate any diversity from missile launcher selection.

Not really, I can still see situations where I would use Cruise missile launchers on a snake even with a special bonus to Rapids.

My thoughts are moving in the direction of a Pvp Snake.
It without a doubt has the worst, primary attributes (speed, align time, sig radius, etc) of all the Pirate battleships.
Give it something special - Bhaal has Nos, Neuts - Mach has speed, agility - Vindi has web - Nightmare, well if i was running incursions it would be my choice. Not sure about its Pvp application, never flown one.

Rattlesnake with a bonus to Rapid Launchers reload time, would not be OP but would give it that little something to make it viable as a Pvp ship and get it out of mission sites and Anoms..

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.