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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2261 - 2014-05-08 11:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
He's right. We've been hoodwinked…
We're actually getting a NERF to the Gecko with the Kronos update.
Basically whatever damage it's doing now - expect it to drop 6.3%...
...
Feel free to check my math and point out any errors. FML, this sucks. Evil
My enthusiasm for the new Rattlesnake just flamed out...


CCP Fozzie wrote:
...


Sorry for the repost - my last one landed in the middle of a childish flame war. [edit] oh, it's happened again... Can we please ban these people?

I've reworked the numbers for the various post-summer rattlesnake/gecko comparisons here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApJily1SXkKRdGhlSGc5SGJBWmhhZ0JrMWpETVFBSVE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

I think there might be an error on fozzie's sheet since it's saying that firbolgs will be out-damaged by dragonflies and templars, but i've used the 3.5 number anyway.

I agree with your calculations.

Summary:
Rattlesnake with cruise/navy BCUs + gecko/T2 DDA: 1835dps sustained
With cruise: 1449dps to range 84km

Navy Dominix: (2 gecko + hammer + hob, navy mag stabs)
With VOID: 1855dps

RR Archon with 3 DDA (T2), 7 geckos and an ogre:
1543dps

RR Thanatos with 10 firbolgs, 3 DDA:
2543dps <== I think Fozzie may have meant to also reduce the "fighters" skill multiplier down to 10% per level?

In fairness, I think the small DPS penalty with geckos is more than made-up-for by the speed advantage over ogres.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2262 - 2014-05-08 11:09:24 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
nahjustwarpin wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Ok reworded to make it cleaner.

So how about this.
RATTLESNAKE

Gallente Battleship Bonus:
10% bonus to drone damage, tracking,speed and hitpoints

Caldari Battleship Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
50% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage. (Was 50% bonus to Cruise missile and Torpedo max velocity)

Ship Rebalance bonus
275% bonus to heavy and sentry drone damage and hitpoints.
(Note 50mbps bandwidth overall damage unchanged)


Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 6L; 0 turrets, 5 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 10000 PWG, 710 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 12750 / 8940(-358) / 9960
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 5350(+38) / 1154000ms / 4.59
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 94 / .128 / 99300000 / 18.45s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-75) / 200(-200)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 30
Signature radius: 450(-10)


Clearer?


do you realize that thing has almost 1890 dps and double bonus to drone hp (50% more hp on top of what is in role bonus)


Sorry? 50% bonus = 150 total not 200 (double)
Say damage is 500 50% bonus is 250 total 750. 750 is nor double 500 The ship balance bonus only restores the status quo.


i'm talking about
"275% bonus to heavy and sentry drone damage and hitpoints."
and "10% bonus to drone damage, tracking,speed and hitpoints"

first bonus gives 2 heavy/sentry drones after patch hp of 5 heavy/sentry drones pre-patch, so like normal bonuses now (domi,ishtar etc) but second bonus does exactly the same and increases the hp even further.

Dude, you can't be that naive to think ccp would implement a ship that can field drones with total hp 50% more than it's equivalents (domi/ishtar), massive tank with 4% resistance bonus and 1890 dps on top of it.



Naturally as a pirate ship that is part of the faction described as the drone pirate faction, i would expect better drones than a t1 battleship.
I have already discussed, that the heavy drones in my opinion do need a boost to function effectively, this has been made very clear with the introduction of the Gecko.

Sentry drones I believe have suffered greatly with the omninerf, that has effected the TI domi far less as it has built in compensations.

So If I am naive to believe that the flagship drone pirate faction should not have less drone ability, than a T1 battleship then you may be right, but I am in that case still correct, but you are entitled to draw that conclusion.

If CCP rise believes that with good and effective drones the ship is overpowered, than possibly he should keep the missile bonus that was granted and modify it, possibly up. Balanced by removing the additional launcher.

I do believe that applied and realistic damage for the ship as a whole will be significantly less than the number you quote.
1890 is quite unrealistic as an applied damage number. But if you are sure of that, I am sure it will make for an interesting discussion if you provide the calculations for peer approval.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2263 - 2014-05-08 11:13:53 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


So If I am naive to believe that the flagship drone pirate faction should not have less drone ability, than a T1 battleship then you may be right, but I am in that case still correct, but you are entitled to draw that conclusion.



They arn't a drone faction, they are a caldari pirate faction that likes to take caldari ships and add a twist to them.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2264 - 2014-05-08 11:18:33 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
baltec1 wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


So If I am naive to believe that the flagship drone pirate faction should not have less drone ability, than a T1 battleship then you may be right, but I am in that case still correct, but you are entitled to draw that conclusion.



They arn't a drone faction, they are a caldari pirate faction that likes to take caldari ships and add a twist to them.


I really suggest you listen to the fanfest stream on youtube. It is very clear, being exceptional drone platforms is now the Guristas pirate flavour.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2265 - 2014-05-08 11:18:54 UTC
The Sin should be the pinnacle of drone ships, sub cap at least, it just needs some work to get there.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2266 - 2014-05-08 11:24:42 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


So If I am naive to believe that the flagship drone pirate faction should not have less drone ability, than a T1 battleship then you may be right, but I am in that case still correct, but you are entitled to draw that conclusion.



They arn't a drone faction, they are a caldari pirate faction that likes to take caldari ships and add a twist to them.


I really suggest you listen to the fanfest stream on youtube. It is very clear, being exceptional drone platforms is now the Guristas pirate flavour.


And yet, their gear has no drone equipment and their ships all come from the caldari line.

They arnt a pure drone faction, their ships are a mix of missiles and drones.
Kueyen
Angharradh's Aegis
#2267 - 2014-05-08 11:34:35 UTC
Posting because the math fail is just so unignorably large:

  • 50Mbps and +275% (i.e. x3.75) bonus to heavies/sentries
    • » 2 actual heavies/sentries (or 1 gecko), 7.5 effective heavies/sentries
    » 5 actual mediums, 5 effective mediums
    » 5 actual lights, 5 effective lights

  • 50Mpbs and +50% (i.e. x1.5) bonus to all drones and +275% (i.e. x3.75) bonus to heavies/sentries
    • » 2 actual heavies/sentries (or 1 gecko), 11.25 effective heavies/sentries »» OP
    » 5 actual mediums, 7.5 effective mediums
    » 5 actual lights, 7.5 effective lights

  • 50Mbps and +50% (i.e. x1.5) bonus to all drones and +150% (i.e. x2.5) bonus to heavies/sentries
    • » 2 actual heavies/sentries (or 1 gecko), 7.5 effective heavies/sentries »» acceptable
    » 5 actual mediums, 7.5 effective mediums
    » 5 actual lights, 7.5 effective lights

Until all are free...
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#2268 - 2014-05-08 13:05:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Kueyen wrote:

» 5 actual lights, 7.5 effective lights

  • 50Mbps and +50% (i.e. x1.5) bonus to all drones and +150% (i.e. x2.5) bonus to heavies/sentries
    • » 2 actual heavies/sentries (or 1 gecko), 7.5 effective heavies/sentries »» acceptable
    » 5 actual mediums, 7.5 effective mediums
    » 5 actual lights, 7.5 effective lights
    [/list]



    This is a fair and necessary change.

    I would really rather just have my 5 drones back and 400m3 drone bay.

    When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
    Vulfen
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #2269 - 2014-05-08 14:14:57 UTC
    Priestess Lin wrote:
    Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
    Priestess Lin wrote:


    aren't you just one of Kaaldoofusus alts?

    Do you even know what his idea is?


    No. I'm not.

    His idea is to add two bonuses onto the drone side of the ship (speed & tracking), while keeping the rest of the changes. If they do that... I want the Mach to gain a tracking bonus & an additional speed bonus. That will be fine, right?

    Secondly, you might try being polite. Randomly insulting people is pointless. It will just result in your posts being deleted.


    that doesn't sound OP at all considering how weak the the proposed changes are. Currently, its real DPS will still be less than other pirate factions and it will do nothing really well.

    Apparently people are only thinking about this thing from a dps perspective and not in a reality perspective. Drone users know you can't use your drones all the time. Sorry but the reality is that the new RS is even a bigger joke in pvp than before and it needs something to deal with fast moving targets if it is going to have any effectiveness at all.

    It definitely needs something like this or its just going to need more changes further down the road.


    A BS classed ships does not need to have something to specificity deal with small fast targets. They are designed for large engagements. Your fleet should be organised enough to deal with light ships coming in close, with a mix of webs and other support dps.
    ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
    ISD Community Communications Liaisons
    ISD Alliance
    #2270 - 2014-05-08 14:16:48 UTC
    Removed a large amount of off topic posts. Please keep it on topic, civil, and attack free. Thank you.

    ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

    Senior Lead

    Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

    Interstellar Services Department
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #2271 - 2014-05-08 14:17:42 UTC
    Priestess Lin wrote:

    I would really rather just have my 5 drones back and 400m3 drone bay.


    Actually, me too. I don't like these silly megadrones.

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #2272 - 2014-05-08 14:18:43 UTC
    Vulfen wrote:

    A BS classed ships does not need to have something to specificity deal with small fast targets. They are designed for large engagements. Your fleet should be organised enough to deal with light ships coming in close, with a mix of webs and other support dps.


    Their entire argument falls apart when it's brought up that nearly every single other battleship in the game manages to do both PvP and PvE without bonused light drones.

    I actually had one of them tell me that the Paladin was not a viable ship for PvE because it doesn't have bonused light drones. That was a pretty good laugh.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.
    Priestess Lin
    Darkfall Corp
    #2273 - 2014-05-08 14:29:27 UTC
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Vulfen wrote:

    A BS classed ships does not need to have something to specificity deal with small fast targets. They are designed for large engagements. Your fleet should be organised enough to deal with light ships coming in close, with a mix of webs and other support dps.


    Their entire argument falls apart when it's brought up that nearly every single other battleship in the game manages to do both PvP and PvE without bonused light drones.

    .


    Actually, it is pretty stupid to assume that all ships need to be alike in what they do. Additionally, you don't seem to be able to comprehend the fact that a brawler BS that uses missiles such as torpedoes need web scrambling frigates to die fast. Frigates will be overpowered when fighting a Rattlesnake with unbonused lights.

    In you vision of gameplay, ships would have equal dps within their classes and have all the same weaknesses. Basically the only difference would be the visuals of whatever weapons you were using.

    Sounds very boring and simple minded.

    When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
    Priestess Lin
    Darkfall Corp
    #2274 - 2014-05-08 14:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
    Its a Pirate faction battleship, dude. Its supposed to be better than a t1. A domi is a lot cheaper too and performs exceptionally well for its price.

    Additionally, there is no marauder drone boat.

    Why shouldn't the RS be the best BS drone boat with bonuses to all its drones? We have enough missile...everything.


    They talk about reducing the number of drones but still nobody is going to be using the summer snake in pvp. The changes make the snake much much weaker in pvp, being weaker to e-war, reliance on missiles for primary dps, and ineffectiveness at combating smaller targets as a brawler.

    When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #2275 - 2014-05-08 14:50:01 UTC
    Priestess Lin wrote:

    Why shouldn't the RS be the best BS drone boat with bonuses to all its drones? We have enough missile-everything.



    Because it's not a droneboat anymore.

    It's a hybrid.

    Oh, and this would be the first time a pirate boat has been bonused for missile dps, too. Since this was announced before we found out about the Mordu ships.

    Why do you want everything to be the same?

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.
    Soldarius
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #2276 - 2014-05-08 14:58:01 UTC
    You guys need to look at it other stats. Gecko has the speed+tracking of a Berserker. That is to say, .53 vs .36. So yeah, it doesn't do as much raw damage. But it will apply more of it, and it will get to target faster than any other large drone (sentries excepting).

    Also, I'm showing 634dps for 2x Augmented Ogres or Ogre IIs, and 616 for a Gecko on a Rattlesnake post-change.

    Another thing you should be aware of is the EHP difference. I'm seeing 64886 EHP on a Gecko, 47419 on a Augmented Ogre, and 31603 for an Ogre II. Again, all on the Rattler.

    http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
    Juin Tsukaya
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #2277 - 2014-05-08 15:02:40 UTC
    Soldarius wrote:
    You guys need to look at it other stats. Gecko has the speed+tracking of a Berserker. That is to say, .53 vs .36. So yeah, it doesn't do as much raw damage. But it will apply more of it, and it will get to target faster than any other large drone (sentries excepting).

    Also, I'm showing 634dps for 2x Augmented Ogres or Ogre IIs, and 616 for a Gecko on a Rattlesnake post-change.

    Another thing you should be aware of is the EHP difference. I'm seeing 64886 EHP on a Gecko, 47419 on a Augmented Ogre, and 31603 for an Ogre II. Again, all on the Rattler.



    the problem with having only 1 drone tho is some of its pve applications.
    The AI changes that have them targeting drones also has them doing the ecm and jamming attacks. I have seen them web my drones. I have seen the paint my drones. so when my 1 gecko gets jammed or disrupted... there goes a butt load of my dps.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #2278 - 2014-05-08 15:11:08 UTC
    Priestess Lin wrote:

    They talk about reducing the number of drones but still nobody is going to be using the summer snake in pvp. The changes make the snake much much weaker in pvp, being weaker to e-war, reliance on missiles for primary dps, and ineffectiveness at combating smaller targets as a brawler.


    The price of the rattle has jumped massive since this was announced, thats means a lot of people are wanting the ship. We have never sold as many rattles as we have in the last few weeks. The changes make the new rattle one of the most dangerous ships in the game and the single best battleship at dealing with smaller targets. I have no idea why you think this ship is any more vulnerable to ewar.
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #2279 - 2014-05-08 15:13:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
    Soldarius wrote:
    You guys need to look at it other stats. Gecko has the speed+tracking of a Berserker. That is to say, .53 vs .36. So yeah, it doesn't do as much raw damage. But it will apply more of it, and it will get to target faster than any other large drone (sentries excepting).

    Also, I'm showing 634dps for 2x Augmented Ogres or Ogre IIs, and 616 for a Gecko on a Rattlesnake post-change.

    Another thing you should be aware of is the EHP difference. I'm seeing 64886 EHP on a Gecko, 47419 on a Augmented Ogre, and 31603 for an Ogre II. Again, all on the Rattler.


    Be careful to use the post-kronos numbers for done damage.

    Rattlesnake, 1 gecko:
    0x T2 DDAs: 461.25 dps
    1x T2DDa: 567.34
    2x T2 DDAs: 680.75
    3x T2 DDAs: 770.08

    On top of this, the rattlesnake fits 5 cruise missile launchers (say). With 2x faction BCU + 1 T2 bay loading accelerator it gets another 679.84 dps of missile damage.

    Dominix etc, 2 geckos, 2 hammerheads, 1 hobgoblin:
    0x DDA: 493.74
    1x DDA: 607.30
    2x DDA: 728.70
    3x DDA 824.33

    On top of this you have the choice of medium or large guns depending on application. Unless you're in a shield-tanked setup you won't have room to pimp them with damage mods.

    EDIT: my workings are here for verification: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApJily1SXkKRdGhlSGc5SGJBWmhhZ0JrMWpETVFBSVE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #2280 - 2014-05-08 15:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
    Juin Tsukaya wrote:
    Soldarius wrote:
    You guys need to look at it other stats. Gecko has the speed+tracking of a Berserker. That is to say, .53 vs .36. So yeah, it doesn't do as much raw damage. But it will apply more of it, and it will get to target faster than any other large drone (sentries excepting).

    Also, I'm showing 634dps for 2x Augmented Ogres or Ogre IIs, and 616 for a Gecko on a Rattlesnake post-change.

    Another thing you should be aware of is the EHP difference. I'm seeing 64886 EHP on a Gecko, 47419 on a Augmented Ogre, and 31603 for an Ogre II. Again, all on the Rattler.



    the problem with having only 1 drone tho is some of its pve applications.
    The AI changes that have them targeting drones also has them doing the ecm and jamming attacks. I have seen them web my drones. I have seen the paint my drones. so when my 1 gecko gets jammed or disrupted... there goes a butt load of my dps.


    This is no different to a kronos getting jammed and losing all of its dps, unlike the kronos though, you can simply call back the drone and launch again to lose the jam. This drone is going to have up to the EHP of a low tank battleship.