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Rorqual in Highsec
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Mira Taras
IonTek LLC
#1 - 2014-04-14 13:29:36 UTC
Hey guys, it was probably requested a couple of times, but with the changes to the reprocessing in the summer expansion, are there any more reasons, to not allow rorquals in highsec? If CCP enables compression outside of the rorqual, maybe we can give her a new home in highsec as a miners wet dream? Lol

It would give the ship a little more presence, and there would be an upgrade after the orca that would give some people new goals to play by. The unique role of the rorqual to compress ore isn't a limiting property anymore after summer.

From my point of view these are the pro/cons of allowing it to highsec:
+more ship diversity in highsec (yes, 0.0 isn't the only thing in eve :P)
+new goals for miners/indus
+no game breaking advantages for highseccers with the changes to reprocessing.
+i just love that ships design and want to see it more often :D
+the transport capacity wouldn't make freighters or jump freighters redundant
+increase ice resource usage in highsec, creating need for more resources to come in from low/null.
-it is a capital after all and has a lot of hp. Ganks would be very difficult. Maybe tone done the ehp a bit? Ganks shouldn't be impossible, they are a part of highsec.

Yay/nay?
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2014-04-14 14:51:59 UTC
actually, for me the idea of giving compression to high via POS mods is bad.

compression shall remain a lowsec thing, using the rorqual.

this is one less reason to go in low, and it screw all the ppl actually having a rorqual because it will now be useless
Mira Taras
IonTek LLC
#3 - 2014-04-14 15:01:24 UTC
The module reprocessing nerf is one of the central points of the announced changes. But it only works with making ore compression available. I dont think they will make a step back on this.

And the rorq isn't useless at all, it is still the superior mining support ship.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2014-04-14 15:12:35 UTC
Nope. Still a capital and has all the strengths of one (million or so EHP, reps thousand of hp, remote reps thousands of hp, jump drive, cargohold big enough for general hauling, cheaper than a jump freighter, etc).

How did you Veterans start?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#5 - 2014-04-14 15:54:40 UTC
For high sec, I would want to see the following:

Well, cargo is only 40K. The Orca has 30K.
(Compared to Freighter at 750K and JF at 275K BASE value)
(The JF get's 5% bonus per freighter level, meaning you really have 330K or 344K actual, depending on skill level)


Ore hold? Good to go, I think.
250K, it can't even match the JF for general capacity in a specialized hold.
I am simply not seeing a conflict here, except if someone used a JF for ore transport, with JF's capacity only a little higher.

Like a JF, no jumping into a HS system, so it would need to have gate travel within HS systems at minimum.

It never could use fighters, no change there.

Honestly, considering it's pinata nature, I find it's use outside of high sec to be questionable, and a novelty occurance too often.

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knowsitall
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-04-14 16:04:22 UTC
The only role i see for rorq. Unless changed post summer expansion is as one of the quickest ways to get jump clones for you and your corp without the standing grind.

Rorqs in high sec i see no problem with.

Although as said above cyno should be out and therefore it would behave like a jump frieghter.

Have not tried in ages so don't know if this is still true, but in the past freighter and jump freighter could not scoop from space. If that is still true that restriction should be added if they are added to high sec.

Lastly it may require the escalation (not the time lag) of CONCORD forces if CONCORD can not melt them quickly enough.


Knowsitall
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2014-04-14 16:05:18 UTC
problem with this is, is it can fit all the capital mods that made the ship dangerous, and witrhout other capitals in highsec it would be nigh on impossible to kill all while be able to have 10 effective drones.

I'd rather see the orca get some improvements instead of the rorq allowed in highsec
Lilliana Stelles
#8 - 2014-04-14 16:37:10 UTC
Rorqual is a near match to a carrier.

Million+ HP and capital reps should not be allowed in highsec.

Not a forum alt. 
Mira Taras
IonTek LLC
#9 - 2014-04-14 16:38:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mira Taras
I dont think that remote repair and tank would be that big of a deal in highsec. For one there is the criminal system and concord, preventing abuse. But the main difference imo is the lack of cyno in highsec. You cannot rely on your backup oder escalations like you can in low/null. I dont think that the rorq would be op in highsec.

I also agree with Nikk Narrel, thanks for pointing out the cargo sizes. In its current state, the rorq would not threaten freighters oder jfs. Also seeing jfs going down to a swarm of destroyers, a rorq could be a tool to move medium size freight with higher value. But i agree, it shouldn't be ungankable.

Maybe limit the capital modules to a specific security rating, like bomb launchers? This shouldn't break other uses of the rorq or other caps, and leaves her in hs as buffer tank only. Something that can be dealt with a large enough number of catas/brutixes.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#10 - 2014-04-14 16:38:58 UTC
Rowells wrote:
problem with this is, is it can fit all the capital mods that made the ship dangerous, and witrhout other capitals in highsec it would be nigh on impossible to kill all while be able to have 10 effective drones.

I'd rather see the orca get some improvements instead of the rorq allowed in highsec

Dangerous?

It can't aggro anyone without getting a suspect flag, which means instant pinata party for anyone who ever wanted to be on a capital kill mail.

A smart pilot would probably micro manage their drones to death, assuming they risked launching the unpredictable things to begin with.

The only exception that possibly applies would be under some type of war dec, which is an open secret how to avoid using NPC corps.

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#11 - 2014-04-14 16:41:16 UTC
Mira Taras wrote:
... But i agree, it shouldn't be ungankable. Maybe limit the capital modules to a specific security rating, like bomb launchers? This shouldn't break other uses of the rorq or other caps, and leaves her in hs as buffer tank only. Something that can be dealt with a large enough number of catas/brutixes.

Everything should be gankable...

A smart pilot is the one who makes sure it is not profitable to do so, excel sheet tanking FTW.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mira Taras
IonTek LLC
#12 - 2014-04-14 16:42:32 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Mira Taras wrote:
... But i agree, it shouldn't be ungankable. Maybe limit the capital modules to a specific security rating, like bomb launchers? This shouldn't break other uses of the rorq or other caps, and leaves her in hs as buffer tank only. Something that can be dealt with a large enough number of catas/brutixes.

Everything should be gankable...

A smart pilot is the one who makes sure it is not profitable to do so, excel sheet tanking FTW.


This is what i wanted to say, sorry if my limited english got the point out wrong :D
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2014-04-14 17:08:02 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Rowells wrote:
problem with this is, is it can fit all the capital mods that made the ship dangerous, and witrhout other capitals in highsec it would be nigh on impossible to kill all while be able to have 10 effective drones.

I'd rather see the orca get some improvements instead of the rorq allowed in highsec

Dangerous?

It can't aggro anyone without getting a suspect flag, which means instant pinata party for anyone who ever wanted to be on a capital kill mail.

A smart pilot would probably micro manage their drones to death, assuming they risked launching the unpredictable things to begin with.

The only exception that possibly applies would be under some type of war dec, which is an open secret how to avoid using NPC corps.

The biggest concern would be remote capital reps, self reps and station docking games.
Lilliana Stelles
#14 - 2014-04-14 17:23:55 UTC
Mira Taras wrote:
I dont think that remote repair and tank would be that big of a deal in highsec. For one there is the criminal system and concord, preventing abuse. But the main difference imo is the lack of cyno in highsec. You cannot rely on your backup oder escalations like you can in low/null. I dont think that the rorq would be op in highsec.



Actually, it's that system in particular that makes it dangerous. It can provide neutral reps to wartargets and suspects while also providing a boost with its command processor slots. It would singlehandedly turn the tide of any war or duel. Particularly when dealing with station games, as it would have the ability to dock up before almost anything could kill it.

The highest DPS on any highsec ship is probably the vindicator, which can hit around 2k. It'd take over 10 minutes to destroy a rorqual, or it'd take 10+ vindicators to even have a chance of bringing it down within its weapons timer. It'd essentially be risk free PVP (particularly when you get two of them out there). (This isn't the case in lowsec with supercarriers, dreads, and godforbid titans dealing in the 10k dps range)

Not a forum alt. 
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#15 - 2014-04-14 17:36:09 UTC
Unless I am mistaken, isn't there a system already in place that prevents a ship from docking after it commits a hostile act?

If we are simply referring to difficulty ganking a pilot smart enough to not shoot back, then I have no sympathy.

Docking games exist in many places, and if you cannot get your target to commit to a fight, that is your challenge to overcome.

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Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#16 - 2014-04-14 17:36:12 UTC
A cargo rigged and equipped rorqual can actually carry 400k+ m^3 of ore, and has a lower jump fuel cost than a JF. If you want to move minerals (via compressed ore) to nullsec or great distances the rorqual is very viable. The main issue is getting the compressed ore to low sec first.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#17 - 2014-04-14 17:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikk Narrel
Aerie Evingod wrote:
A cargo rigged and equipped rorqual can actually carry 400k+ m^3 of ore, and has a lower jump fuel cost than a JF. If you want to move minerals (via compressed ore) to nullsec or great distances the rorqual is very viable. The main issue is getting the compressed ore to low sec first.

EDIT: What fitting, please? I can't get the cargo hold beyond 137K, and the ore hold shows no change to rigs or expanders on EFT.


Wait, you mean you can expand that 40k cargo hold that far?

Never tried it.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2014-04-14 17:46:08 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Actually, it's that system in particular that makes it dangerous. It can provide neutral reps to wartargets and suspects while also providing a boost with its command processor slots. It would singlehandedly turn the tide of any war or duel. Particularly when dealing with station games, as it would have the ability to dock up before almost anything could kill it.

The highest DPS on any highsec ship is probably the vindicator, which can hit around 2k. It'd take over 10 minutes to destroy a rorqual, or it'd take 10+ vindicators to even have a chance of bringing it down within its weapons timer. It'd essentially be risk free PVP (particularly when you get two of them out there). (This isn't the case in lowsec with supercarriers, dreads, and godforbid titans dealing in the 10k dps range)



These Vindicator figures make the assumption the rorqual is alone, not paired with a second rorqual, sitting on Jita Undock with a pair of insta-locking frigates, pre-locked by the rorquals, and however many combat ships they need to gank whatever war targets, suspects, or otherwise undock.


For example^


And GOOD LUCK killing a POS bashing fleet using 3 rorquals and a bs support fleet.... unless you happen to be RVB or Eve Uni.

The Capital RR mods are obscenely OP for current high sec balance. 3 carriers/rorquals is comparable to what for rep amount? 12 guardians or something?

Sure you could bring geddons but by the time you actually break their cap you would already be down a few geddons. Capital remote reps are some seriously strong RR... not to be underestimated, and a rorqual CAN fit them, which is why Rorqual's in high sec are bad. Oh, and all that stuff about compression too.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2014-04-14 18:04:56 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Unless I am mistaken, isn't there a system already in place that prevents a ship from docking after it commits a hostile act?

If we are simply referring to difficulty ganking a pilot smart enough to not shoot back, then I have no sympathy.

Docking games exist in many places, and if you cannot get your target to commit to a fight, that is your challenge to overcome.

unless attacked by a heavy amount of high dps ships that can break the tank in less than 60 seonds then it is still possible.

My biggest concern is the ability to keep a capital on the undock and simply rr any ship it wants, giving a highly unfair advantage, even with the suspect flag
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2014-04-14 18:08:34 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Aerie Evingod wrote:
A cargo rigged and equipped rorqual can actually carry 400k+ m^3 of ore, and has a lower jump fuel cost than a JF. If you want to move minerals (via compressed ore) to nullsec or great distances the rorqual is very viable. The main issue is getting the compressed ore to low sec first.

EDIT: What fitting, please? I can't get the cargo hold beyond 137K, and the ore hold shows no change to rigs or expanders on EFT.


Wait, you mean you can expand that 40k cargo hold that far?

Never tried it.

hes referring to all holds combined ore hold, fleet hangar, and cargo bay
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