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I hate learning implants. Please add learning boosters.

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Solecist Project
#21 - 2014-04-12 23:54:52 UTC
Hey Zappity!

Well... the implants definitely have their spot in the game.

They are great for those who believe that they are worth it.
Great for those who want to cut down on time needed to skill for stuff.

Problem arises only if those who want to skill fast are also those who like to pew!

You know that yourself. You question what they add to the game,
while at the same time you're actually a happy user... until moments like this one come up.

Does that really make sense or is it just the "pain" or "fear of losing them" speaking here?

You seem to want to have both the cake and eat it at the same time... but we both know that won't work.

What it adds to the game is benefit for those who want to use them. It also adds thrill for those few
who use them and at the same time RISK them. You know that too!

You say you don't want to jump into your PvP clone, because you don't want to lose the benefit...

Maybe you're taking it a bit more serious than necessary? Maybe the speedup isn't actually worth it
for such short amounts of time? Have you done the math? How much do you lose if you don't have
them plugged in for a week or two? And... do you REALLY lose anything?

What's worth more? The fun you could have (which you are missing out by choice, as you say),
or the day or two you get to use something better/earlier?

Time goes by anyway, doesn't it?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#22 - 2014-04-12 23:56:05 UTC
Sounds like a classic tale of Risk vs. Reward.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2014-04-12 23:57:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Learning implants are an outdated vestige of the days of learning skills. The players that really care about training time are newer players, while improved training time is a frivolous benefit for those players that already have high-SP characters. They serve no real purpose but to provide a massive advantage to risk-averse players (with outliers like extremely wealthy PvPers who can afford to replace +5s regularly) because you don't really risk your implants in hisec.

Attribute bonuses should have been nuked from implants years ago, with base stats being increased by 5.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#24 - 2014-04-12 23:57:08 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Zappity wrote:
I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days. The problem is that when I have time to log in for half an hour I never want to jump back to lowsec for some pew because of the training time loss over the next few days. So someone, usually me :), doesn't explode that day. Stupid, I know, but there you go.

Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations.


So what you're saying is that because you don't like risking implants, I shouldn't be allowed to benefit from risking mine

Unplug all your implants and play the game. Problem solved, no?

I DO risk implants. Very expensive ones. But they still don't train as fast.

Listen, there are ways to work around it. I understand that. I just don't understand what this adds to the game. It is a horrible mechanic that works against the other things CCP is trying to achieve.


No it isn't.

Explain please. I don't understand how this supports the goal of increasing player interaction. If you are talking risk vs reward that could also be achieved by boosters which would be destroyed when podded.


How does giving options hurt new player retention?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#25 - 2014-04-12 23:57:48 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Sounds like a classic tale of Risk vs. Reward.

My PvP implants are more expensive.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#26 - 2014-04-12 23:57:53 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Learning implants are an outdated vestige of the days of learning skills. The players that really care about training time are newer players, while improved training time is a frivolous benefit for those players that already have high-SP characters. They serve no real purpose but to provide a massive advantage to risk-averse players (with outliers like extremely wealthy PvPers who can afford to replace +5s regularly)

Attribute bonuses should have been nuked from implants years ago, with base stats being increased by 5.


Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#27 - 2014-04-12 23:59:28 UTC
[quote=MalcanisHow does giving options hurt new player retention?[/quote]
How does sitting in a station help?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#28 - 2014-04-13 00:00:15 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Learning implants are an outdated vestige of the days of learning skills. The players that really care about training time are newer players, while improved training time is a frivolous benefit for those players that already have high-SP characters. They serve no real purpose but to provide a massive advantage to risk-averse players (with outliers like extremely wealthy PvPers who can afford to replace +5s regularly)

Attribute bonuses should have been nuked from implants years ago, with base stats being increased by 5.


Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants?

Temporary boosters. Create more drug trade.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#29 - 2014-04-13 00:00:34 UTC
Zappity wrote:

How does sitting in a station help?


You are choosing to sit in the station.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Thead Enco
HR..
#30 - 2014-04-13 00:00:37 UTC
Zappity wrote:
I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days. The problem is that when I have time to log in for half an hour I never want to jump back to lowsec for some pew because of the training time loss over the next few days. So someone, usually me :), doesn't explode that day. Stupid, I know, but there you go.

Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations.


And this is why the "Risk adversed" will be the end of all of us....
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-04-13 00:00:49 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants?


This isn't really different from the dumb arguments made against the removal of learning skills, FYI

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#32 - 2014-04-13 00:01:29 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants?


This isn't really different from the dumb arguments made against the removal of learning skills, FYI


I argued against removing learning skills. It was a huge mistake on CCP's part.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-04-13 00:05:20 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
I argued against removing learning skills. It was a huge mistake on CCP's part.


But you lost, and rightly so because learning skills were garbage timesinks that had zero impact on actual gameplay (unless you consider skill queuing 'gameplay') as are learning implants.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#34 - 2014-04-13 00:06:50 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
I argued against removing learning skills. It was a huge mistake on CCP's part.


But you lost, and rightly so because learning skills were garbage timesinks that had zero impact on actual gameplay (unless you consider skill queuing 'gameplay') as are learning implants.


It was a filter for the community.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Wesley Otsdarva
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-04-13 00:07:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Wesley Otsdarva
masternerdguy wrote:


I find it amazing how some players handicap themselves and become slaves to the skill que. Nothing is preventing you from interacting with others except yourself.



This^ I wish I could like this more than once. I stopped being a slave to the queue when I forgot put in some really long skills and forgot the end dates missed about a week of training. After that I realized that the skills will finish when they finish. Never again did I spend time on EVE HQ finding optimal training plans or sit in highsec with a set implants.

A man chooses, A slave obeys.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#36 - 2014-04-13 00:09:16 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants?


This isn't really different from the dumb arguments made against the removal of learning skills, FYI


In fact it is.

Unplug your implants. Go PvP. There, in 30 seconds, your dilemma is resolved; a mere question of spending some ISK compared to the irrevocable commitment of several months training time required to complete the learning skills.

Also you are employing the obvious fallacy of trying to imply that +5s are somehow "required". Basically that the SP/hr that you get with +5s is somehow yours by right.

Would you be content if CCP simply removed learning implants and didn't give everyone a +5 bonus to every stat?

If not then what you're actually complaining about is how long skills take to train; a scalar issue rather than a process issue.

So which is the actual problem that you're complaining about here?

1) That it's possible to risk ISK-value assets to increase training speed

2) That skills take too long to train.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#37 - 2014-04-13 00:11:02 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Learning implants are an outdated vestige of the days of learning skills. The players that really care about training time are newer players, while improved training time is a frivolous benefit for those players that already have high-SP characters. They serve no real purpose but to provide a massive advantage to risk-averse players (with outliers like extremely wealthy PvPers who can afford to replace +5s regularly)

Attribute bonuses should have been nuked from implants years ago, with base stats being increased by 5.


Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants?

Temporary boosters. Create more drug trade.


That's a better answer, but why would this require the removal of implants? Why not simply have both?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2014-04-13 00:11:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
A few points:

- people are far far too obsessed with SP, it has become a mini-game in its own right, especially for new players

- for most people the loss of +3s or +4s is not really a matter of finance, they are cheap enough you can afford to lose them. Its more a case of not wanting to give the other guy the bonus of a shiney pod killmail.

- seems to me completely empty clones are mainly used for suicide ganking or highly dangerous roams

- PvP clones only need two implants (as you switch your skill queue to whatever skills match the two implants in the clone) so even +4s in a PvP clone is only 45 mill at current market value

- if for some reason you have spare LP with a low LP/ISK ratio corp (fed navy comes to mind) they are good way of using that otherwise excess hard to convert LP. (you would be mad to spend sisters LP on generic implants though)
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2014-04-13 00:17:55 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
In fact it is.

Unplug your implants. Go PvP. There, in 30 seconds, your dilemma is resolved; a mere question of spending some ISK compared to the irrevocable commitment of several months training time required to complete the learning skills.

Also you are employing the obvious fallacy of trying to imply that +5s are somehow "required". Basically that the SP/hr that you get with +5s is somehow yours by right.

Would you be content if CCP simply removed learning implants and didn't give everyone a +5 bonus to every stat?

If not then what you're actually complaining about is how long skills take to train; a scalar issue rather than a process issue.

So which is the actual problem that you're complaining about here?

1) That it's possible to risk ISK-value assets to increase training speed

2) That skills take too long to train.


NPCs don't engage pods, and until they do, saying that implants are risked outside of 0.0/w-space is a joke.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
PrettyMuch Always Right
Doomheim
#40 - 2014-04-13 00:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: PrettyMuch Always Right
Malcanis wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants?


This isn't really different from the dumb arguments made against the removal of learning skills, FYI


In fact it is.

Unplug your implants. Go PvP. There, in 30 seconds, your dilemma is resolved; a mere question of spending some ISK compared to the irrevocable commitment of several months training time required to complete the learning skills.

Also you are employing the obvious fallacy of trying to imply that +5s are somehow "required". Basically that the SP/hr that you get with +5s is somehow yours by right.

Would you be content if CCP simply removed learning implants and didn't give everyone a +5 bonus to every stat?

If not then what you're actually complaining about is how long skills take to train; a scalar issue rather than a process issue.

So which is the actual problem that you're complaining about here?

1) That it's possible to risk ISK-value assets to increase training speed

2) That skills take too long to train.

The issue for me is how it relates to new players.

New players are already behind in SP thus value their SP gains more than vets, and rightly so. New players also have less ISK thus value their implants more than vets, and rightly so.

The mechanic in itself benefits the players that need it least, while being detrimental to the players that need it most.

I'm not against training implants personally however I do think new players need an option of sorts to keep up with the vets. Perhaps new Cerebral Accelerators that last longer - up to you a year +2 all around for example - which provides the permanent boost in training for newer players.

EDIT: Oh, Zappity beat me to it it would seem!