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EVE: the Game you Wait to Play

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#481 - 2014-04-11 16:20:11 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
I thought this thread would be dead by now, but since you're all still going strong...

Koz Katral wrote:
This whole 'but you can do lots of things on day 1' mantra being perpetuated over and over again by condescending vets with perfect level 5 skills is really inaccurate and tiresome.


Koz Katral wrote:
Actually my biggest issue with the slow acquisition of skill points, is that you can learn, read and overcome the learning curve a lot faster than you can actually partake in the activities you want to do.


Hearken to me all ye EVE pilots. Here, in Koz Katral, we have an honest player who has not sold his soul to CCP! He deserves a a year's worth of kudos for not prostituting his mind for to defend the perfection of an imperfect game. I could not have said it better myself. In fact, if I didn't believe it were self-serving to do so, I'd replace my OP with Koz's comments. For they are absolutely spot-on, and indicate a player who really knows EVE. Muchas gracias for these posts!


Just when I thought I'd seen terrible posting, this.

You're not only applauding someone for being as delusional and incorrect as you are, you're actually saying that the thousands upon thousands of player who could do what you cannot (learn to play EVE and enjoy it for what it is) are somehow 'selling out' to CCP....



See here CCP, this is why you don't want just any new player, but rather good new players, because the Karaks of the world would crap up your game.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#482 - 2014-04-11 16:21:35 UTC
Moneta Curran wrote:

Actually, one could argue that the new tutorial is pampering newbies too much and falls short of being a proper introduction to the actual game.
An astute observation. And I would say that the tutorials were very much part of the reason I became disenchanted. They were nothing like post-tutorial gameplay. The would do better to have tutorials that did little more than help players get accustomed to the interface and such. And certainly they should give the newbie nothing but a few paltry ISK, so that he gets a good introduction to making hard choices.
Moneta Curran wrote:
If anything, the OP's tale demonstrates that creating false expectations is definitely not the way to go.
Excactly. All the people in this thread who are trashing WoW (and trashing, at the same time, their own past, since they're all WoW refugees for it's childish pay-per-fun style, EVE does the same thing to hook people, both in their marketing and in their tutorials. But the truth always, eventually, comes out.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#483 - 2014-04-11 16:22:21 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
Moneta Curran wrote:

Actually, one could argue that the new tutorial is pampering newbies too much and falls short of being a proper introduction to the actual game.
An astute observation. And I would say that the tutorials were very much part of the reason I became disenchanted. They were nothing like post-tutorial gameplay. The would do better to have tutorials that did little more than help players get accustomed to the interface and such. And certainly they should give the newbie nothing but a few paltry ISK, so that he gets a good introduction to making hard choices. And make some of the intro missions dependent on 14-day skills training. Let's be honest in our tutorial, CCP!
Moneta Curran wrote:
If anything, the OP's tale demonstrates that creating false expectations is definitely not the way to go.
Excactly. All the people in this thread who are trashing WoW (and trashing, at the same time, their own past, since they're all WoW refugees for it's childish pay-per-fun style, EVE does the same thing to hook people, both in their marketing and in their tutorials. But the truth always, eventually, comes out.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#484 - 2014-04-11 16:22:31 UTC
Koz Katral wrote:
At no point have I complained the game is too hard - I would welcome the game to be even harder. What I want is for people to able to access this hard content a lot faster. Competitive players looking for a challenge are the players you want right?
Quote:

Which is why I've been saying for years: it's a dumb idea for EVE to go for 'more subs' at the expense of QUALITY players who actually can cut it in a non-thempark MMO. EVE does and will always need new blood, but dumbing down the game to invite more "other mmo" players is nothing more than a recipe foe the wrong (whiney, uncreative, greedy) types of people



Quality players are not players who are happy to sit in a high sec station for 3 months, mine a few rocks, shoot some mission rats and then eventually suck up to a null sec renter corp where they can be babysit by players exactly like them with vastly more experience. Yet that is exactly what the game attracts in its current state - Good competitive players that want to push the game to its limit have little reason to even start playing. The player base stagnates, the activity declines, and forum warriors who have never even shot another player sit on the forums posting 'LUL CAN I HAS YOUR SUTFF?'


Quality players don't sit in hi sec station for 3 months. If you think that is the only option, you aren't a quality player in EVE terms, you're a scrubbins.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#485 - 2014-04-11 16:22:40 UTC
Invisusira wrote:
But does anyone actually do this?
Unfortunately, yes.

Unless things have drastically changed in the last year efter I took my raw-newbie alt (this was before I noticed that I could create dummy characters in EVEMon to build plans on Oops), they're still as prevalent as they were when I first started Tippia. If anything, they might even be more numerous since there are more old hands around now who stuck around to dispense their “wisdom”… but maybe that's just me noticing them more now than I did 6 years ago.

Karak Kashada wrote:
Hearken to me all ye EVE pilots. Here, in Koz Katral, we have an honest player who has not sold his soul to CCP!
He may be honest, but he's also wrong. That's kind of the problem. He makes the same erroneous assumption you do that you have to wait before you partake in any given activity. This is simply not the case.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#486 - 2014-04-11 16:23:54 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
you're actually saying that the thousands upon thousands of player who could do what you cannot (learn to play EVE and enjoy it for what it is) are somehow 'selling out' to CCP....
The truth can be painful. Red pill, or blue?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#487 - 2014-04-11 16:24:17 UTC
People who want instant gratification get angry at a game with long term goals.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#488 - 2014-04-11 16:24:44 UTC
Moneta Curran wrote:

Actually, one could argue that the new tutorial is pampering newbies too much and falls short of being a proper introduction to the actual game.
An astute observation. And I would say that the tutorials were very much part of the reason I became disenchanted. They were nothing like post-tutorial gameplay. The would do better to have tutorials that did little more than help players get accustomed to the interface and such. And certainly they should give the newbie nothing but a few paltry ISK, so that he gets a good introduction to making hard choices. And make some of the intro missions dependent on 14-day skills training. Let's be honest in our tutorial, CCP!
Moneta Curran wrote:
If anything, the OP's tale demonstrates that creating false expectations is definitely not the way to go.
Excactly. All the people in this thread who are trashing WoW (and trashing, at the same time, their own past, since they're all WoW refugees for it's childish pay-per-fun style, EVE does the same thing to hook people, both in their marketing and in their tutorials. But the truth always, eventually, comes out.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#489 - 2014-04-11 16:26:14 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
you're actually saying that the thousands upon thousands of player who could do what you cannot (learn to play EVE and enjoy it for what it is) are somehow 'selling out' to CCP....
The truth can be painful. Red pill, or blue?

That certainly explains your yelps of agony… Don't worry, it'll stop hurting once you understand why the truth isn't what you thought it was.

Also, hint: quote is not edit. Blink
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#490 - 2014-04-11 16:26:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Karak Kashada wrote:
Moneta Curran wrote:

Actually, one could argue that the new tutorial is pampering newbies too much and falls short of being a proper introduction to the actual game.
An astute observation. And I would say that the tutorials were very much part of the reason I became disenchanted. They were nothing like post-tutorial gameplay. The would do better to have tutorials that did little more than help players get accustomed to the interface and such. And certainly they should give the newbie nothing but a few paltry ISK, so that he gets a good introduction to making hard choices.
Moneta Curran wrote:
If anything, the OP's tale demonstrates that creating false expectations is definitely not the way to go.
Excactly. All the people in this thread who are trashing WoW (and trashing, at the same time, their own past, since they're all WoW refugees for it's childish pay-per-fun style, EVE does the same thing to hook people, both in their marketing and in their tutorials. But the truth always, eventually, comes out.

Oh hai.

Tutorials used to consist of here's your ship, that's an NPC, try not to die.
To put it another way, the tutorials consisted of here's a Rubiks Icosahedron, go forth and fornicate with yourself.

That was it, no being shown around the interface, no explanation of anything, no ships beyond a newbie frig, no blueprints, no skills. Despite that, we managed to survive them.

Completing the current tutorials actually gives out a fair amount of isk, or stuff that can be sold for even more isk.

As for WoW refugees, speak for yourself, tried it, hated it, quit within an hour.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#491 - 2014-04-11 16:27:14 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
Tippia wrote:
That's because ships and mods are not rewards (and the best ones have fairly low skill requirements anyway). Your in-game time is rewarded by gameplay experience — the thing that really lets you beat the snot out of less experienced opponents. If you don't value the time you and other players put in, then that's your problem, not CCP's.


The journey is the reward
-- Taoist Proverb
I'm sorry. I just don't find waiting for skills to train to be much of a journey. And if "the journey" is busying myself with things I'd rather not do while my skills train—all the "other stuff" EVE offers while you wait—yeah, this just isn't the game for me. I have no problem with that.



This is your problem. You think the thing you are training for is what you really want to do. So you are complaining that everything else is not fun. The problem is, because while you are training for x you could still be doing x. you can pvp with no problems in a t1 ship with t1 mods. This is quite fun. You can mine with a t1 mining lasor and a frig as you skill up for the bigger stuff. You can explore with a tech 1 frig as you skill up for a covert ops. You can run missions in a BC or crusers as you skill up to a BS. You can.. do you not grasp this point? The issue is again you. You seriously need to stop looking at the end you have set 'oh pvp is boring... I keep losing, maybe if I get that tech 2 battler ship and tech 2 guns and all the skills, yea in a year I will win' no in a year you will STILL LOSE. Because you find pvp boring. if its boring in a tech 1 frig it will be boring in a T2 battle ship. Sheesh.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Koz Katral
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#492 - 2014-04-11 16:27:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Invisusira wrote:
But does anyone actually do this?
Unfortunately, yes.

Unless things have drastically changed in the last year efter I took my raw-newbie alt (this was before I noticed that I could create dummy characters in EVEMon to build plans on Oops), they're still as prevalent as they were when I first started Tippia. If anything, they might even be more numerous since there are more old hands around now who stuck around to dispense their “wisdom”… but maybe that's just me noticing them more now than I did 6 years ago.

Karak Kashada wrote:
Hearken to me all ye EVE pilots. Here, in Koz Katral, we have an honest player who has not sold his soul to CCP!
He may be honest, but he's also wrong. That's kind of the problem. He makes the same erroneous assumption you do that you have to wait before you partake in any given activity. This is simply not the case.



Of course you have to wait. You spend that time waiting doing a less fulfilling and less meaningful activity that probably isn't the thing you want to do in the long run while your skill points tick over. As far as I'm concerned, that's waiting and just grinding in a different form - the downside is you have no way of speeding that up regardless of how much time you spend playing/waiting/whatever you want to refer to it as.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#493 - 2014-04-11 16:28:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Divine Entervention wrote:

Defensive and evasive.
Of course it is, you're attacking me so I'm defending myself and evading your attempts at insults.

It's a clarification of "facts" that you cannot possibly know to be "factual", which means you're just blathering on your un-verified opinion as if it were truth instead of based in reality.

Like I don't know what happens when we die. Because of this, regardless of what I believe, I don't go to people and tell them what I believe as if it were fact. You will go to hell. You will go to heaven. You will reborn. Absolutely NOTHING.

I don't know. Just like you don't know if what you're saying about me is true or not, except I have the courtesy to not spread my anger inspired lies and deceit on a public forum. You on the other hand, well just skimming your latest attempt at discrediting me, i can see is laden with indirect insults and further attempts to fit me into the mold you've created for me.

You need to back up a bit, admit that it's impossible for you to know what it is you're claiming, and begin to act like a decent human being.

I know you're really slanting towards the "lets hate divine" angle, but you're only proving that you'll let yourself lie and believe in those lies for the sake of impressing a couple of random hate-mongers on the internet.

Is that the person you want to be? Someone who lies for high fives?


I'm not lying lol.

I don't know you and don't need to know you. I know your posts. Your posts point to someone who is unsuited to EVE online and who then blames the game for his own failure and bad choice of game to play. This is not to say anything about you in real life, only that you demonstrate (through your posts) some very very bad personality traits that we see displayed all the time by misfit players.

As we see again with your post (directed at me and with not one ounce of self examination) you prove me right. But I'm not your problem friend, you are.

And to keep this post on topic: The OP is just like this Divine guy. He doesn't understand that the game is fine (if imperfect, nothing made by human hands is perfect IMO) and it's his choices (to play a non-instant gratification game when he is the sort that needs instant gratification) that is his real problem. The evidence i offer to prove this assertion is me and most of the EVE player base, who made it through the new player period just fine without whining or trying to get tings changed, even when that new player experience was less generous than it is now.

And btw, I'm not doing anything for any high fives. I'm telling the truth as I see it because that is what i do, lying on a video game forum would be beneath me, I'm a grown ass man lol.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#494 - 2014-04-11 16:30:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Invisusira wrote:
But does anyone actually do this?
Unfortunately, yes.

Unless things have drastically changed in the last year efter I took my raw-newbie alt (this was before I noticed that I could create dummy characters in EVEMon to build plans on Oops), they're still as prevalent as they were when I first started Tippia. If anything, they might even be more numerous since there are more old hands around now who stuck around to dispense their “wisdom”… but maybe that's just me noticing them more now than I did 6 years ago.

Karak Kashada wrote:
Hearken to me all ye EVE pilots. Here, in Koz Katral, we have an honest player who has not sold his soul to CCP!
He may be honest, but he's also wrong. That's kind of the problem. He makes the same erroneous assumption you do that you have to wait before you partake in any given activity. This is simply not the case.

"Any given activity," Let's see... that's like saying, "If you breathe what your lungs need, you'll live." Aka, it means nothing of value. People in this thread lob lists of things you can do in EVE without skills, as if being busy and doing things is supposed to be rewarding. I'll say it again (and as yet, no one dared pick up the baton on it)...no player who has the option to engage in activities that will directly influence his ability to acquire the skills, ships, and mods of his choice will ever spend a fraction of a second doing anything else on your "things you can do instead" lists.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#495 - 2014-04-11 16:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Koz Katral wrote:
Of course you have to wait.
Unless all you ever want to do is fly capships, no, you don't. Not ever. The activities are available from day one, and you decide not to partake in them because you've erected a wall between you and them, and then decided that the best way of dealing with that wall is to wait. That is an edifice entirely of your making, not something the game imposes on you.

Karak Kashada wrote:
"Any given activity," Let's see... that's like saying, "If you breathe what your lungs need, you'll live."
No, it's like saying “I can't list every activity in the game here, so I'll give a catch-all statement instead since it'll be just as true anyway”.

Quote:
I'll say it again (and as yet, no one dared pick up the baton on it)...no player who has the option to engage in activities that will directly influence his ability to acquire the skills, ships, and mods of his choice will ever spend a fraction of a second doing anything else on your "things you can do instead" lists.

…and as has been mentioned numerous times now, the beauty of EVE is that it has divested itself from that horrible design by letting you concentrate on actually playing the game rather than having to worry about grinding for advancement and character progression. Oh, and you're wrong, by the way. People choose not to engage in such activities all the time around here.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#496 - 2014-04-11 16:31:57 UTC
Many people have told you what you need to do op, its damn simple. Take the advice of everyone who has been down this path you are walking. Everyone has been there. 10 years ago, I nearly left eve in my two week trial. I found npcing and pvping boring. I never thought I could do anything. Then someone siggestied I mine. I figured what the hell, and grabed a bantum, trained mining to 1, and mined. And I found it relaxing, and very enjoyable. 30 min into mining and chatting with my friends and I was hooked. 10 years later, if I want a break and I want to relax I mine. I'm a miner, I will mine until the server dies. No mater what I do, I always go back to mining. Its what I truly love about eve. You need to find what you love to do. If its all boring, then give me yoru stuff and stop wasting your time.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Wulfgar WarHammer
Unrustled
#497 - 2014-04-11 16:36:19 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
... I'm a miner, I will mine until the server dies....


But do you have a permit?
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#498 - 2014-04-11 16:36:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Jenn aSide wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:

Defensive and evasive.
Of course it is, you're attacking me so I'm defending myself and evading your attempts at insults.

It's a clarification of "facts" that you cannot possibly know to be "factual", which means you're just blathering on your un-verified opinion as if it were truth instead of based in reality.

Like I don't know what happens when we die. Because of this, regardless of what I believe, I don't go to people and tell them what I believe as if it were fact. You will go to hell. You will go to heaven. You will reborn. Absolutely NOTHING.

I don't know. Just like you don't know if what you're saying about me is true or not, except I have the courtesy to not spread my anger inspired lies and deceit on a public forum. You on the other hand, well just skimming your latest attempt at discrediting me, i can see is laden with indirect insults and further attempts to fit me into the mold you've created for me.

You need to back up a bit, admit that it's impossible for you to know what it is you're claiming, and begin to act like a decent human being.

I know you're really slanting towards the "lets hate divine" angle, but you're only proving that you'll let yourself lie and believe in those lies for the sake of impressing a couple of random hate-mongers on the internet.

Is that the person you want to be? Someone who lies for high fives?


I'm not lying lol.

I don't know you and don't need to know you. I know your posts. you posts point to someone who is unsuited to EVE online and who then blames the game for his own failure and bad choice of game to play. This is not to say anything about you in real life, only that you demonstrate (through your posts) some very very bad personality traits.

As we see again with your post (directed at me and with not one ounce of self examination) you prove me right. But I'm not your problem friend, you are.

And to keep this post on topic: The OP is just like this Divine guy. He doesn't understand that the game is fine (if imperfect, nothing made by human hands is perfect IMO) and it's his choices (to play a non-instant gratification game when he is the sort that needs instant gratification) that is his real problem. The evidence i offer to prove this assertion is me and most of the EVE player base, who made it through the new player period just fine without whining or trying to get tings changed, even when that new player experience was less generous than it is now.

And btw, I'm not doing anything for any high fives. I'm telling the truth as I see it because that is what i do, lying on a video game forum would be beneath me, I'm a grown ass man lol.


Of course you're lying. Because you're stating as a fact what you cannot possibly know to be true. I know me best, so if I say you're wrong about me, then you're wrong. Just as if I were to tell you that your children are stupid, you being the father of those children would have greater credit in disproving my statements about what you "know". Even if I used the argument that "jenna side's children must be stupid because they were raised by a father who believes his opinions are facts and pushes them on others as if they were correct, meaning the children probably believe alot of wrong things their father told them which are undoubtedly incorrect."
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#499 - 2014-04-11 16:38:15 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:


Of course you're lying. Because you're stating as a fact what you cannot possibly know to be true. I know me best, so if I say you're wrong about me, then you're wrong. Just as if I were to tell you that your children are stupid, you being the mother of those children would have greater credit in disproving my statements about what you "know". Even if I used the argument that "jenna side's children must be stupid because they were raised by a mother who believes her opinions are facts and pushes them on others as if they were correct, meaning the children probably believe alot of wrong things their mother told them which are undoubtedly incorrect."

careful now

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#500 - 2014-04-11 16:39:24 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Of course you're lying.
What is he lying about? Because let's be honest here: you have a history of not being able to understand what a lie is…