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EVE: the Game you Wait to Play

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Invisusira
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#461 - 2014-04-11 15:46:46 UTC
First off, I'm impressed that you actually LIKED the initial couple weeks but then started hating it later. Usually it's the opposite. So hats off to you for having an open mind there, and to CCP for making the opening better, apparently!

EVE Online is unlike any other MMO you have ever played. It is NOT a game that you wait to play. At all. It is a game you PLAY to play. It is a game that you play entirely at your own pace, and it is wonderful because of that. As soon as you realize this and accept it, other MMOs just seem so trivial.

What do I mean by play to play? It's a sandbox. It's a game you sit down to have fun with. When you pick up a copy of Soul Calibur or Halo, you (for the most part) play it not to "advance your character." You play it to play it. You play the game TO HAVE FUN.

EVE Online does not force you to grind to a level cap. It does not force you to farm gear. It does not make the point of playing to repeat this same dungeon over and over until you have better gear so that you can repeat the next dungeon over and over. Understand this, embrace this, and realize that you are EMPOWERED by EVE's real-time training, not ENCUMBERED by it.


HOWEVER.


All that being said, your argument does hold some validity. It can be ridiculously discouraging for a new player to look at all the skills they "have" to train just to "start to have fun." The sheer number of core skills that everyone tells you to train before you even get to start working towards that cool ship you want can be wholeheartedly depressing and causes many to just give up.

CCP should remove core skills.

No, seriously. Think about it. All the X% here, X% there skills? They're just time sinks for new players to get discouraged by. Get rid of em. (Most of them, at least.) Keep specialization skills. Keep the bonuses to ships, T2 weapons, that sort of thing. Make training for things something to get excited about, not something that lets you tick off another box on the "things to do before I'm allowed to start ship training" list.

EVE Music
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#462 - 2014-04-11 15:48:11 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:

Well what you see as the truth is wrong.


The thing is, it's not wrong and you'll find that most of our forum posting peers will agree with me rather than you . Not that such agreement is needed: you are not mentally suited to EVE online as evidenced by the fact that you do so much posting about how bad the game is for new players. I was a new player in 2007 with much less access to the things you have now and i (and most of us here) survived easily without having to make posts asking for changes.

If you go to a swimmign pool and see one guy jump in and swim easily and another go in and struggle, the 1st logical thought is "that second guy needs swimming lessons". If the 2nd guy goes and gets swimming lessons and comes back and still struggles, that then means that swimming probably isn't for him.

In the above example , you are the 2nd guy who keeps jumping into the water, struggles, then complains that it's dumb and unfair for water to hamper one's abilty to breath when one is submerged in it rather than understanding that you can't swim.



H2o is op, ccp needs to nerf it

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Moneta Curran
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#463 - 2014-04-11 15:51:57 UTC

Actually, one could argue that the new tutorial is pampering newbies too much and falls short of being a proper introduction to the actual game. If anything, the OP's tale demonstrates that creating false expectations is definitely not the way to go.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#464 - 2014-04-11 15:54:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Organic Lager wrote:

I guess your newbie experience was different then mine. I left the tutorial with 500m (from a buddy invite) asking what now? Ran a few level 1 missions made like 100k in an hour and was like well this is bullshit. Flew into lowsec got instant pop'd 1 jump in and was like well this is bullshit. Spent the next couple months afk until i could fly a drake and started on level 3s, been hooked ever since but those first few months were really bad.

Frigs sure are fun! Unless you want to make isk, in which case they really aren't.
Fun > isk TBH.

I've only very recently become space rich middle class. Eve has never been about how much isk I have, but about the people I meet and how much fun I can have with the isk that I've got.

TL;DR I play Eve for fun, not to hoard some imaginary currency.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Wulfgar WarHammer
Unrustled
#465 - 2014-04-11 15:54:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Wulfgar WarHammer
I'm just going to go ahead and add ...

AS A PARENT, (c wut i did thar? Big smile ) I find the skill system in this game to be one of the best and most innovative of all MMOs. I do not have time to play this game for 8 hours a day grinding the same old crap to reach level cap. Having 2 kids, a career, a house to take care of.... I love the fact that I'm not really getting left behind by all the people who 'rush to cap' or whatever that all other MMOs are so fond of.

I can play a for a few hours, update my PI, queue up a few skills, screw around with my market orders, maybe do a few sites in our WH or statics, and not be afraid that some jobless kid who has ample spare time just comes along and makes all my efforts obsolete.

OP is probably a no-lifer, and is sad that he can't no-life his way to the top. For me, the skill system prevents that kind of play, and I'm all for it. But the beauty of it all, is that even for the no-lifers, they will be able to become 'stronger' than me (simply by virtue of having way more ISK) but in a one-on-one fight, the battlefield is more or less equal.

Koz Katral wrote:
Except you will never be in a one on one fight because by your own admission you are a raging care bear for whom other peoples skill points have little to no consequence.


Forget it, you're more dense than a brick wall.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#466 - 2014-04-11 15:56:57 UTC
Invisusira wrote:
All that being said, your argument does hold some validity. It can be ridiculously discouraging for a new player to look at all the skills they "have" to train just to "start to have fun." The sheer number of core skills that everyone tells you to train before you even get to start working towards that cool ship you want can be wholeheartedly depressing and causes many to just give up.

CCP should remove core skills.
No, they should just start giving tempbans to people who do the underlined bit, because it is truly the most atrocious kind of newbie griefing that goes on in the game, often right in the n00bcorp channels.

That is where the problem lies, which is why we created the newbie training plan as a counter to all that received wisdom idiocy.
Koz Katral
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#467 - 2014-04-11 15:57:26 UTC
Wulfgar WarHammer wrote:
I'm just going to go ahead and add ...

AS A PARENT, (c wut i did thar? Big smile ) I find the skill system in this game to be one of the best and most innovative of all MMOs. I do not have time to play this game for 8 hours a day grinding the same old crap to reach level cap. Having 2 kids, a career, a house to take care of.... I love the fact that I'm not really getting left behind by all the people who 'rush to cap' or whatever that all other MMOs are so fond of.

I can play a for a few hours, update my PI, queue up a few skills, screw around with my market orders, maybe do a few sites in our WH or statics, and not be afraid that some jobless kid who has ample spare time just comes along and makes all my efforts obsolete.

OP is probably a no-lifer, and is sad that he can't no-life his way to the top. For me, the skill system prevents that kind of play, and I'm all for it. But the beauty of it all, is that even for the no-lifers, they will be able to become 'stronger' than me (simply by virtue of having way more ISK) but in a one-on-one fight, the battlefield is more or less equal.


Except you will never be in a one on one fight because by your own admission you are a raging care bear for whom other peoples skill points have little to no consequence.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#468 - 2014-04-11 16:02:12 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
I want to build it and skill it to be my own special little snow flake.
That's the point right there. A game can either be a competitive sandbox where everybody is equal (and game 'age' actually matters), or a themepark where everybody is a special snowflake right from day one. You can't have a great game if you try to mix the two.

Organic Lager wrote:
Why would it **** of existing characters? Could it be because they may have to finally admit that SP are an advantage and they don't want new players to close the gap on them quicker?
Existing players would have full access to the exact same boost so I don't see why they would "get nothing out of it"
They would get nothing out of the time & money they've put into the game so far. Whereas from the Bazaar they get a good amount of ISK.

Organic Lager wrote:
Flew into lowsec got instant pop'd 1 jump in and was like well this is bullshit.
If you're reaction to one single loss is giving up, I agree EVE PVP isn't for you.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#469 - 2014-04-11 16:03:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Jenn aSide wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:

Well what you see as the truth is wrong.


The thing is, it's not wrong and you'll find that most of our forum posting peers will agree with me rather than you . Not that such agreement is needed: you are not mentally suited to EVE online as evidenced by the fact that you do so much posting about how bad the game is for new players. I was a new player in 2007 with much less access to the things you have now and i (and most of us here) survived easily without having to make posts asking for changes.

If you go to a swimmign pool and see one guy jump in and swim easily and another go in and struggle, the 1st logical thought is "that second guy needs swimming lessons". If the 2nd guy goes and gets swimming lessons and comes back and still struggles, that then means that swimming probably isn't for him.

In the above example , you are the 2nd guy who keeps jumping into the water, struggles, then complains that it's dumb and unfair for water to hamper one's abilty to breath when one is submerged in it rather than understanding that you can't swim.




You stated a bunch of claims about my person.

You cannot possibly know them to be true. This is a fact by the way, unlike your opinion. You see a snippet of my true personality(your opinion) and you arrive at a conclusion about my person based off of some words I put on these forums.

(yet if I do the same with your actions, of course I'm wrong right?)

Then I tell you you're wrong, yet still being unable to know for certain if you're correct, you further emphasize that you are indeed correct because others agree with you?

You don't know anything about me other than what I've typed on these forums. In fact, there's even a ton more evidence going against you that I do belong here considering that:

A) I'm still here
B) Playing the game
C) Motivated with my experience to feel like posting thoughts on the game's forum.

Now please continue to tell me how despite you knowing you're correct, how you are. Further demonstrating to me that you will argue a point as fact that you cannot possibly know to be so, validating my conclusion that you are someone who will argue for arguing's sake, with no actual merit or meaning behind your posts other than to put forth words meaning to contradict without actual substance.
Invisusira
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#470 - 2014-04-11 16:04:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Invisusira
Tippia wrote:
That is where the problem lies, which is why we created the newbie training plan as a counter to all that received wisdom idiocy.

You're a Pretty Cool Guy and I usually agree 100% with your posts, but you gotta see the hypocrisy in the "we hate how people tell new players that they need to train their core skills for a month, so we've created a plan where we tell new players to train their core skills for a month" statement.

EVE Music
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#471 - 2014-04-11 16:04:19 UTC
Moneta Curran wrote:

Actually, one could argue that the new tutorial is pampering newbies too much and falls short of being a proper introduction to the actual game. If anything, the OP's tale demonstrates that creating false expectations is definitely not the way to go.


Damnit CCP, why can't I give this post more than one like?? I demand DEV response! lol

But yea, a thempark new player experience doesn't fit in a sandbox game.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#472 - 2014-04-11 16:10:11 UTC
Invisusira wrote:
You're a Pretty Cool Guy and I usually agree 100% with your posts, but even you have to see the hypocrisy in the "we hate how people tell new players that they need to train their core skills for a month, so we've created a plan where we tell new players to train their core skills for a month" statement.

There's a distinct difference between “here's a plan that lets you do all kinds of stuff for a surprisingly low amount of SP” and “you have to train [huge list of skills] to V before you even attempt what you're thinking of doing”. So no, I don't quite see the hypocrisy in demonstrating a wide array of options on how to play the game starting right this second, with many explicit forks in the road along the way, while at the same time bashing people who impose ridiculous and 100% unnecessary (not to say false) restrictions on players and effectively telling them not to play at all.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#473 - 2014-04-11 16:10:21 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:

Well what you see as the truth is wrong.


The thing is, it's not wrong and you'll find that most of our forum posting peers will agree with me rather than you . Not that such agreement is needed: you are not mentally suited to EVE online as evidenced by the fact that you do so much posting about how bad the game is for new players. I was a new player in 2007 with much less access to the things you have now and i (and most of us here) survived easily without having to make posts asking for changes.

If you go to a swimmign pool and see one guy jump in and swim easily and another go in and struggle, the 1st logical thought is "that second guy needs swimming lessons". If the 2nd guy goes and gets swimming lessons and comes back and still struggles, that then means that swimming probably isn't for him.

In the above example , you are the 2nd guy who keeps jumping into the water, struggles, then complains that it's dumb and unfair for water to hamper one's abilty to breath when one is submerged in it rather than understanding that you can't swim.




You stated a bunch of claims about my person.

You cannot possibly know them to be true. This is a fact by the way, unlike you're opinion. You see a snippet of my true personality and you arrive at a conclusion about my person based off of some words I put on these forums.

(yet if I do the same with your actions, of course I'm wrong right?)

Then I tell you you're wrong, yet still being unable to know for certain if you're correct, you further emphasize that you are indeed correct because others agree with you?

You don't know anything about me other than what I've typed on these forums. In fact, there's even a ton more evidence going against you that I do belong here considering that:

A) I'm still here
B) Playing the game
C) Motivated with my experience to feel like posting thoughts on the game's forum.

Now please continue to tell me how despite you knowing you're correct, how you are. Further demonstrating to me that you will argue a point as fact that you cannot possibly know to be so, validating my conclusion that you are someone who will argue for arguing's sake, with no actual merit or meaning behind your posts other than to put forth words meaning to contradict without actual substance.


This defensive and evasive post is further proof of your lack of mental suitability to play EVE lol.

A wiser person would think: what am i doing to get people to think this of me? you turn outward ("people are being mean to me") rather than turn inward ("I'm making a fool of myself and should stop that"). your every post proves what i believe. And again, I'm not the only one who believes this.

The point is not to belittle you (you to that yourself). The point is to demonstrate the extreme flaws in the way you think in hopes that one day you come to understand why what you think is invalid. Though to be honest, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other lol.

I simply find people like you fascinating, how you conduct yourself is obviously to cause of so many people disliking you yet (like Cartman from Southpark) in your own twisted mind it's everyone else (and EVE Online) that's screwed up, not you.
Koz Katral
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#474 - 2014-04-11 16:12:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Koz Katral
Invisusira wrote:
Tippia wrote:
That is where the problem lies, which is why we created the newbie training plan as a counter to all that received wisdom idiocy.

You're a Pretty Cool Guy and I usually agree 100% with your posts, but you gotta see the hypocrisy in the "we hate how people tell new players that they need to train their core skills for a month, so we've created a plan where we tell new players to train their core skills for a month" statement.


I just looked at the skill plan, 43 days to basically be able to do nothing of consequence except fly tackle frigs and run level 3's - The New player experience everybody.

I applaud the effort undertaken in an attempt to help new players get going, but if anything it just proves a point.


Jenn aSide wrote:


I think I'm smart, I think you are dumb, you r wrong cus u dumb lol


Pretty much every post from you in this thread so far.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#475 - 2014-04-11 16:13:46 UTC
Koz Katral wrote:
Invisusira wrote:
Tippia wrote:
That is where the problem lies, which is why we created the newbie training plan as a counter to all that received wisdom idiocy.

You're a Pretty Cool Guy and I usually agree 100% with your posts, but you gotta see the hypocrisy in the "we hate how people tell new players that they need to train their core skills for a month, so we've created a plan where we tell new players to train their core skills for a month" statement.


I just looked at the skill plan, 43 days to basically be able to do nothing of consequence except fly tackle frigs and run level 3's - The New player experience everybody.

I applaud the effort undertaken in an attempt to help new players get going, but if anything it just proves a point.


a point certainly, i doubt its the one you have in your mind though.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#476 - 2014-04-11 16:14:12 UTC
Koz Katral wrote:
I just looked at the skill plan, 43 days to basically be able to do nothing of consequence except fly tackle frigs and run level 3's
Then you haven't really looked at the skill plan, or you have a thoroughly skewed view of what “of consequence” means.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#477 - 2014-04-11 16:14:30 UTC
I thought this thread would be dead by now, but since you're all still going strong...

Koz Katral wrote:
This whole 'but you can do lots of things on day 1' mantra being perpetuated over and over again by condescending vets with perfect level 5 skills is really inaccurate and tiresome.


Koz Katral wrote:
Actually my biggest issue with the slow acquisition of skill points, is that you can learn, read and overcome the learning curve a lot faster than you can actually partake in the activities you want to do.


Hearken to me all ye EVE pilots. Here, in Koz Katral, we have an honest player who has not sold his soul to CCP! He deserves a a year's worth of kudos for not prostituting his mind for to defend the perfection of an imperfect game. I could not have said it better myself. In fact, if I didn't believe it were self-serving to do so, I'd replace my OP with Koz's comments. For they are absolutely spot-on, and indicate a player who really knows EVE. Muchas gracias for these posts!
Invisusira
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#478 - 2014-04-11 16:15:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
“you have to train [huge list of skills] to V before you even attempt what you're thinking of doing"

But does anyone actually do this? Like, yeah, I know the stigma is there. I know the occasional shitposter on the forums is there. But I've never actually heard of a corp that tells/forces you something of that severity.

Most all of the plans I see are pretty much right in line with your personal newbie plan - spend a few weeks training core/small stuff and go from there.

(I'm genuinely curious, if you know of anyone who actually does tell new pilots “you have to train [huge list of skills] to V before you even attempt what you're thinking of doing," name 'n' shame!)

EVE Music
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#479 - 2014-04-11 16:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Koz Katral wrote:
Invisusira wrote:
Tippia wrote:
That is where the problem lies, which is why we created the newbie training plan as a counter to all that received wisdom idiocy.

You're a Pretty Cool Guy and I usually agree 100% with your posts, but you gotta see the hypocrisy in the "we hate how people tell new players that they need to train their core skills for a month, so we've created a plan where we tell new players to train their core skills for a month" statement.


I just looked at the skill plan, 43 days to basically be able to do nothing of consequence except fly tackle frigs and run level 3's - to get a good grounding in the basics, that will stand you in good stead no matter what you decide to do in the future. The New player experience everybody.

I applaud the effort undertaken in an attempt to help new players get going, but if anything it just proves a point.


FTFY

Tippias skill plan is pretty much a foundation to build upon.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#480 - 2014-04-11 16:19:20 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:

Well what you see as the truth is wrong.


The thing is, it's not wrong and you'll find that most of our forum posting peers will agree with me rather than you . Not that such agreement is needed: you are not mentally suited to EVE online as evidenced by the fact that you do so much posting about how bad the game is for new players. I was a new player in 2007 with much less access to the things you have now and i (and most of us here) survived easily without having to make posts asking for changes.

If you go to a swimmign pool and see one guy jump in and swim easily and another go in and struggle, the 1st logical thought is "that second guy needs swimming lessons". If the 2nd guy goes and gets swimming lessons and comes back and still struggles, that then means that swimming probably isn't for him.

In the above example , you are the 2nd guy who keeps jumping into the water, struggles, then complains that it's dumb and unfair for water to hamper one's abilty to breath when one is submerged in it rather than understanding that you can't swim.




You stated a bunch of claims about my person.

You cannot possibly know them to be true. This is a fact by the way, unlike you're opinion. You see a snippet of my true personality and you arrive at a conclusion about my person based off of some words I put on these forums.

(yet if I do the same with your actions, of course I'm wrong right?)

Then I tell you you're wrong, yet still being unable to know for certain if you're correct, you further emphasize that you are indeed correct because others agree with you?

You don't know anything about me other than what I've typed on these forums. In fact, there's even a ton more evidence going against you that I do belong here considering that:

A) I'm still here
B) Playing the game
C) Motivated with my experience to feel like posting thoughts on the game's forum.

Now please continue to tell me how despite you knowing you're correct, how you are. Further demonstrating to me that you will argue a point as fact that you cannot possibly know to be so, validating my conclusion that you are someone who will argue for arguing's sake, with no actual merit or meaning behind your posts other than to put forth words meaning to contradict without actual substance.


This defensive and evasive post is further proof of your lack of mental suitability to play EVE lol.

A wiser person would think: what am i doing to get people to think this of me? you turn outward ("people are being mean to me") rather than turn inward ("I'm making a fool of myself and should stop that"). your every post proves what i believe. And again, I'm not the only one who believes this.

The point is not to belittle you (you to that yourself). The point is to demonstrate the extreme flaws in the way you think in hopes that one day you come to understand why what you think is invalid. Though to be honest, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other lol.

I simply find people like you fascinating, how you conduct yourself is obviously to cause of so many people disliking you yet (like Cartman from Southpark) in your own twisted mind it's everyone else (and EVE Online) that's screwed up, not you.


Defensive and evasive.
Of course it is, you're attacking me so I'm defending myself and evading your attempts at insults.

It's a clarification of "facts" that you cannot possibly know to be "factual", which means you're just blathering on your un-verified opinion as if it were truth instead of based in reality.

Like I don't know what happens when we die. Because of this, regardless of what I believe, I don't go to people and tell them what I believe as if it were fact. You will go to hell. You will go to heaven. You will reborn. Absolutely NOTHING.

I don't know. Just like you don't know if what you're saying about me is true or not, except I have the courtesy to not spread my anger inspired lies and deceit on a public forum. You on the other hand, well just skimming your latest attempt at discrediting me, i can see is laden with indirect insults and further attempts to fit me into the mold you've created for me.

You need to back up a bit, admit that it's impossible for you to know what it is you're claiming, and begin to act like a decent human being.

I know you're really slanting towards the "lets hate divine" angle, but you're only proving that you'll let yourself lie and believe in those lies for the sake of impressing a couple of random hate-mongers on the internet.

Is that the person you want to be? Someone who lies for high fives?