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EVE: the Game you Wait to Play

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Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#181 - 2014-04-11 00:42:16 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:
One who desires X ship and X mods does, indeed have to wait. There is no rational dispute to this. One's reasons for wanting those things are immaterial to the OP. Always have been.

How is this different from any other MMO?

I believe that I detailed that very thing in the OP. I wish people would read (and understand) it before posting.

Oh I did read. You just failed to coherently answer my question, thus, it's here, being asked.

In any other MMO, if you want item x or y, you have to craft it, or buy it, or grind for it. All 3 of them imply some level of waiting for results.

If we are talking about levels, you have to log off, wait for your rested xp, and then go back to the grind, assuming you want to get there ASAP.

Did I miss something?

Yes. You missed my comments in the OP about time value, etc.
Erufen Rito
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2014-04-11 00:44:16 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:
I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited.

I'm not going to try and tell you that you are wrong. Being a new player CAN limit what you can't and cannot do, and how often you can afford to die. Granted, you have to learn the game, and that will often cost you money.

But again, playing catch up is really a non issue. There is a fixed number of skills that will affect a ship and it's modules, so after a bit of time, you will be as good at doing whatever you specizlised in doing as the 10 year vet, SP at least. The rest comes from playing the game and knowing how to react to the different situations you can find yourself in.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Moneta Curran
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2014-04-11 00:44:31 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:
I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited.


You do realise that each and every one of us started as a new player.. The older ones under arguably harsher conditions even. It is a challenge. Rise to it, or leave. Only you can decide if you're having fun.
Erufen Rito
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2014-04-11 00:47:07 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:
One who desires X ship and X mods does, indeed have to wait. There is no rational dispute to this. One's reasons for wanting those things are immaterial to the OP. Always have been.

How is this different from any other MMO?

I believe that I detailed that very thing in the OP. I wish people would read (and understand) it before posting.

Oh I did read. You just failed to coherently answer my question, thus, it's here, being asked.

In any other MMO, if you want item x or y, you have to craft it, or buy it, or grind for it. All 3 of them imply some level of waiting for results.

If we are talking about levels, you have to log off, wait for your rested xp, and then go back to the grind, assuming you want to get there ASAP.

Did I miss something?

Yes. You missed my comments in the OP about time value, etc.

Care to enlighten me, I simply cannot see it.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Tonai Kion
Physics Says No
Brotherhood of Spacers
#185 - 2014-04-11 00:51:08 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:



I appreciate the added perspective. But I fail to see how this could help me "see farther and clearer than the unimaginative masses" where the utility of EVE's current skills-training mechanism is concerned. It's all pretty cut-and-dry. If a player wants to fly A ship and fit B mods, he will train C skills, which will take D time. And this requires my imagination to appreciate?



What I don't understand is why you need Ship A and fit B in the first place.

If you want to do some hauling, you've got a newbie ship for that that can fit Meta 4 mods which are just as good as Tech IIs most of the time.

You don't need a smuggler freighter to move stuff around in low sec/null sec, a t-1 indy can work just fine if you know how to fly her.

If you want to do some solo PVP, you've got beginner ships that are fantastic for that, they don't take long to train up either. They also can fit Meta 4 mods.

I mean obviously a player who has been around longer is going to beat you up if you make a mistake and they know how to handle themselves in a fight. They have several advantages over you. It doesn't make them unbeatable though. You are going to need some friends to take down tough targets however.

I can honestly say the Skilling system hasn't prevented me from doing anything I wanted to do in this game. It has stopped me from doing things as efficiently as I'd like, but I consider that a challenge. I've learned how to mickey mouse fits and when I need to run away from missions and rats because my tank isn't strong enough or I wasn't cap stable, and ran out of energy.

I've learned to keep an eye on local and that railguns make terrible weapons when you enemy gets the jump on you. The system rewards people who keep at the game with some bonuses that newbies aren't going to have, but like every other game, if they make a mistake, you can get right up in their grill and punish them for it.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#186 - 2014-04-11 00:51:44 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:

Yes. You missed my comments in the OP about time value, etc.


Your in-game time is valuable, because it gives you the practical knowledge to use your tools. Not to mention EVE isn't about the ships or the modules, it is about the dynamic relationships between the player driven groups. Those are just tools to make that possible.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#187 - 2014-04-11 00:52:16 UTC
Moneta Curran wrote:
Claud Tiberius wrote:
I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited.


You do realise that each and every one of us started as a new player.. The older ones under arguably harsher conditions even. It is a challenge. Rise to it, or leave. Only you can decide if you're having fun.


Incidentally, when this character was but a few months old I lived in a wormhole. One day, a wh opened to providence. Much like Karak, I took a manticore with probe launcher in search of some kills. I found a helios, tackled it, and proceeded to shoot it for 14 minutes. Eventually I killed the helios, but as I did a CVA defense fleet showed up to put me out of my misery. Later I learned that torps are quite bad for shooting anything smaller than a battlecruiser.

We were all noobs at some point.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#188 - 2014-04-11 00:57:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Claud Tiberius wrote:
I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited.


Experience yes .... training NO unless you are single focused on achieving specific unrealistic goals. Much of the issue with new players is they want to:

PVE
a) Fly a Marauder, T3 or battleship, all of which are "end game" goals for high sec PvE there is nothing after these
b) Run level IV missions, which aside from incursions is pretty much an end game goal for high sec PvE
c) Pay for the first month and then PLEX for free ever after, (which if achievable would mean the game would fail due to lack of funding)

PVP
Instead of joining a PvP corp or FW they expect to be able to just wander about and kill stuff

Even IF training is an issue there are two obvious solutions.
1) Buy a trained character on the Bazaar.
2) Sub for 6 months, set the queues, go play something else until you have the SP you think is necessary
Claud Tiberius
#189 - 2014-04-11 00:58:38 UTC
Moneta Curran wrote:
Claud Tiberius wrote:
I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited.


You do realise that each and every one of us started as a new player.. The older ones under arguably harsher conditions even. It is a challenge. Rise to it, or leave. Only you can decide if you're having fun.



Harsher conditions - I don't think so. There were not always higher level players and the game probably wasn't as populated as it is now. Rising to the challenge is easier said then done. Its either trial and error, repeated many times over. Or you are luckily enough to have someone hold your hand.

Erufen Rito wrote:
I'm not going to try and tell you that you are wrong. Being a new player CAN limit what you can't and cannot do, and how often you can afford to die. Granted, you have to learn the game, and that will often cost you money.

But again, playing catch up is really a non issue. There is a fixed number of skills that will affect a ship and it's modules, so after a bit of time, you will be as good at doing whatever you specizlised in doing as the 10 year vet, SP at least. The rest comes from playing the game and knowing how to react to the different situations you can find yourself in.

Indeed, after a "while".

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
Tonai Kion
Physics Says No
Brotherhood of Spacers
#190 - 2014-04-11 01:00:10 UTC
I thought I missed something from the OP and I think I can address it a little better now that I've thought a bit more on it.

EVE doesn't just reward you with ISK for you time spent in it while waiting to fly a better ship.

Depending on your play style,

You can gain notoriety in the local system you terrorize,
You can set up and maintain a production circuit dedicated to producing things you care about,
You can hunt for rare items in anomalies,

And above all what you can do is impact the game for others. This game isn't about just one person having fun, we have our suicide gankers, our Mercenaries, our indy and mining corps, and a host of other organizations. The point is that in the sandbox the endgame is whatever and whenever you decide it is. It's a social game, and to be honest the lone wolf playstyle is the hardest one to have in this game.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#191 - 2014-04-11 01:00:49 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:
Moneta Curran wrote:
Claud Tiberius wrote:
I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited.


You do realise that each and every one of us started as a new player.. The older ones under arguably harsher conditions even. It is a challenge. Rise to it, or leave. Only you can decide if you're having fun.



Harsher conditions - I don't think so. There were not always higher level players and the game probably wasn't as populated as it is now. Rising to the challenge is easier said then done. Its either trial and error, repeated many times over. Or you are luckily enough to have someone hold your hand.

Erufen Rito wrote:
I'm not going to try and tell you that you are wrong. Being a new player CAN limit what you can't and cannot do, and how often you can afford to die. Granted, you have to learn the game, and that will often cost you money.

But again, playing catch up is really a non issue. There is a fixed number of skills that will affect a ship and it's modules, so after a bit of time, you will be as good at doing whatever you specizlised in doing as the 10 year vet, SP at least. The rest comes from playing the game and knowing how to react to the different situations you can find yourself in.

Indeed, after a "while".


A 2014 character telling a 2007 character he doesn't know what the game was like back thenCool

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#192 - 2014-04-11 01:05:18 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:


Harsher conditions - I don't think so. There were not always higher level players and the game probably wasn't as populated as it is now. Rising to the challenge is easier said then done. Its either trial and error, repeated many times over. Or you are luckily enough to have someone hold your hand.





The game has been simplified and dumbed down substantially the last few years. it is happening again with the summer expansion where drones are being changed so new players can achieve almost the same results as vets with T1 drones and level IV skills.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#193 - 2014-04-11 01:06:31 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:

Yes. You missed my comments in the OP about time value, etc.


Your time isn't valued.

Suggesting that it should be, is suggesting that the game should be grind to win. And since the entire premise of the game's skill system consists of NOT running the rat wheel, your statement is asinine.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Moneta Curran
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2014-04-11 01:09:58 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:
Moneta Curran wrote:
Claud Tiberius wrote:
I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited.


You do realise that each and every one of us started as a new player.. The older ones under arguably harsher conditions even. It is a challenge. Rise to it, or leave. Only you can decide if you're having fun.



Harsher conditions - I don't think so. There were not always higher level players and the game probably wasn't as populated as it is now. Rising to the challenge is easier said then done. Its either trial and error, repeated many times over. Or you are luckily enough to have someone hold your hand.


We had to train learning skills for weeks so we could train skills that actually helped at a decent rate. None of the hand-outs the tutorial gives you were available. I don't even recall a tutorial, just a confused mess of a help channel.. 5 years ago, we had to contend with 5 years old characters. You're just not aware of this, I gather.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#195 - 2014-04-11 01:10:50 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:

Yes. You missed my comments in the OP about time value, etc.


Your time isn't valued.

Suggesting that it should be, is suggesting that the game should be grind to win. And since the entire premise of the game's skill system consists of NOT running the rat wheel, your statement is asinine.



Also you get SP even if you do not login at all except to queue a new skill. SP is not related to hours spent playing.

The whole point of the EVE skill system is to detach SP from the amount of time someone has to login.

Having played MMOs where most of the player base are institutionalized (jail/hospital/whatever) or in high school becasue you need bulk free time to succeed I much prefer the EVE system.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2014-04-11 01:12:56 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:
I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited.



I guess it is all perspective. I still look back fondly on my first couple of months in EVE. I didn't think abuot "competing" with people. I enjoyed and loved learning all about the game. I roamed all over. It was a blast.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#197 - 2014-04-11 01:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Claud Tiberius wrote:
Harsher conditions - I don't think so.
You really should think so.
Money was harder to find, stuff cost more, lower-level equipment was deliberately useless, information was much more scarce, the game was far less user-friendly and offered zero guidance, space was more dangerous, training was a lot slower and with a lot less ability to adjust it than what's available today, skills were a lot more expensive (in time as well as ISK), and yes, there were higher-level players from a very early point. Oh, and no skill queue… Lol

Maybe you have some special and rather peculiar notion of what constitutes “harsher conditions”…?

But not even back then did you ever have to wait to play the game, so there's always that.

Quote:
Indeed, after a "while".
The point is that you don't have to wait 10 years to be at the level of a 10-year character. The “while” is actually very very short, and being on the same level isn't even necessary. In fact, in many cases it's downright detrimental to use that as the goal to aim for.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#198 - 2014-04-11 01:13:48 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:

Having played MMOs where most of the player base are institutionalized (jail/hospital/whatever) or in high school becasue you need bulk free time to succeed I much prefer the EVE system.


What country lets you play MMOs in jail?

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#199 - 2014-04-11 01:22:17 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:

Having played MMOs where most of the player base are institutionalized (jail/hospital/whatever) or in high school becasue you need bulk free time to succeed I much prefer the EVE system.


What country lets you play MMOs in jail?


Take a wild guess.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
PrettyMuch Always Right
Doomheim
#200 - 2014-04-11 01:24:29 UTC
Just took part in the RvB vs E-Uni war in nothing but a destroyer. Most fun I've had in a year.

EVE is for the creative, not for those watching a training queue tick away.