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Player Owned Customs Offices: Math, Markets and Design Problems

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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#41 - 2011-11-22 17:15:05 UTC
Shana Matika wrote:
pmchem wrote:
I am not worried about POCO defenses at the moment, they are low value targets. By design.

Well so are noob frigs - but do you see any stop shooting them while traveling through a lowsec gate?

Yea, I do. They are not worth the 15 minute GCC and sentry aggro. Of course, if you are already GCCed, you might as well do it, it takes one shot, doesn't cost you anything, and you never know.

Now don't compare one-shotting a noobship with a structure that takes a 10 man gang half an hour to reinforce, plus another 30 minutes a day later to kill (at a time you don't choose).

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
tengen san
Triton-TC
#42 - 2011-11-22 18:22:11 UTC
pmchem wrote:
POCOs have 15m EHP. That's their defense for now. They are very cheap to replace (100m isk) and have 15m EHP, plus a reinforcement timer. Some people may shoot them but it's not gonna be done casually because of "kids". It takes a long time to reinforce one unless you have a nicely sized, very high DPS gang (or capitals). Since they only cost 100m isk and have a reinforcement timer, they are trivial to defend/replace.

I am not worried about POCO defenses at the moment, they are low value targets. By design.



To the contrary! They are very high valued target in the strategic sense. Who controls PI controls the market if not the game itself.

If I would had the human resource and the “hardware” I would do following:

Setting up 10 -15 roaming gangs of 5-8 of new T3BC (13k alpha each) hitting preselected targets in 0.1/0.2/0.3 low sec spaces. Should not take the gang too long to bring a POCO down provide they have some haulers in the fleet with enough ammunition. Forget about 04., the planets a.) are not worthwhile to install a POCO anyway to take the risk and b.) 0.4. is the playground for all who want to shoot at things. So things in 04. are being taken care off anyway.

Whenever a POCO pops up the gang is systematically take them down within the whole system. As there won’t be many of POCOs in low sec anyway on the above named reasons, the task of eradicating any serious competition should be not that difficult. If the operation is planned and executed on a sustained base, any resistance or appetite to set up a new one will soon erode.
In the long term this will foster the shift of any valued PI into 0.0., where price dictates can be arranged within the circles of the power holder.

You see there are a deep strategic value to “poff” a POCO once the eyes of market gouger fall on it.

The 100mil is just the build price for the BPC holder. The market price will be +100%, 200mil x 5 to cover a P1-P4 production is a substantial investment to put on line never to see its amortization.


Moving on.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#43 - 2011-11-22 18:39:12 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
You may accuse us of many things, but one thing we are not guilty of is not reading this thread!


J'accuse, mon petit Fromage, J'accuse.


But really, glad to hear you're looking into ROI on these.



That said, more structure bashing... *sob*


(Troll sandwich is like compliment sandwich. troll-real post-troll. Helps maintain a slim, flattering forum presence)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#44 - 2011-11-22 18:58:41 UTC
Unfortunately, in a game where you have ships that can deal a lot of damage quickly - no stacking issues involved with applying said damage - and no stacking issues getting everyone close enough to hit the target - you get blobs, bigger blobs and structures with lots of EHP is the only method that works as a counter.

(I'm not sure what the solution is. At least with missiles/torps, you could make it so that existing explosions on the target have a chance of destroying inbound missiles/torps, which would put an upper limit on how much damage you could apply per second due to all of the explosions. But that really doesn't work for hybrids / lasers.)
Mishatola
Atoll Explorers
#45 - 2011-11-23 00:59:35 UTC
Shana Matika wrote:
pmchem wrote:
POCOs have 15m EHP. That's their defense for now. They are very cheap to replace (100m isk) and have 15m EHP, plus a reinforcement timer. Some people may shoot them but it's not gonna be done casually because of "kids". It takes a long time to reinforce one unless you have a nicely sized, very high DPS gang (or capitals). Since they only cost 100m isk and have a reinforcement timer, they are trivial to defend/replace.

I am not worried about POCO defenses at the moment, they are low value targets. By design.



Well so are noob frigs - but do you see any stop shooting them while traveling through a lowsec gate?

They will get destroyed just for the "tears".
And while a Lowsec-POS can get a fairly good defence this things just float in space like a big, fat "Shoot me" sign.


That's not fair. They also will serve the following purposes:
1. Something to shoot at until your buddies at the gate have a target locked down.
2. Target practice, to see exactly how much DPS you can pump out.
tengen san
Triton-TC
#46 - 2011-11-23 18:06:52 UTC  |  Edited by: tengen san
I give it a month till all low sec Interbus CO’s are blown out of the water for target practice and market strategic reasons.





CCP Omen, on behalf of team PI some adjustments for the first patch to come I want to suggest:
Until now I can access (view) any item in any station hangar, NPC’s, Corp and POS (provide rights granted) but ever since I have no idea what my Hangar on a CO now transformed PCO holds until I was right in front of it.

CCP Omen, on behalf of team PI wrote:

Just use drag&drop items from your cargo directly to the custom office side of the window to store it there.


Would be not to much work to add it for read out to UI Science & Industry /Planetary. Since each planet can only be fitted by one POCO anyway and any POCO is definably assinget to the specific planet, If possible with the current tax rate, to enhance player experience. Of course “once” there is a new one, it should display the present Corp/alliance name since they are transferable.

Also, if I get no result on the UI, I would know the CO was eradicated in Orbit of planets where I hold a PI installations. It would be a sort of the promised convenience to the hustle coming.

May it will be possible on EveHQ but I rather would prefer to have it IG.

On a rather urgent matter: Will material presently stored in CO hangar be transferred to the custom office “storage side” past Nov28 and be freely accessible as tax already was being paid? Of course provide the Interbus CO is still live.
Ariane VoxDei
#47 - 2011-11-23 20:42:34 UTC
tengen san wrote:
I give it a month till all low sec Interbus CO’s are blown out of the water for target practice and market strategic reasons.

Much sooner than that, unless the planet it complete crap. The reason being, who is going to come to their defense.

Remember, no notification, no setting reinforce timer on it. etc, you'd have to watch over it 23/7.
Ariane VoxDei
#48 - 2011-11-23 20:56:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ariane VoxDei
tengen san wrote:
You see there are a deep strategic value to “poff” a POCO once the eyes of market gouger fall on it.

The 100mil is just the build price for the BPC holder. The market price will be +100%, 200mil x 5 to cover a P1-P4 production is a substantial investment to put on line never to see its amortization.

At least someone gets it. Sov-null suddenly has a big opening to leverage the protection they have. Unprotected space (low and WH) will take it in the butt over this.
Given the massive economic impact it potentially has, it would easily pay to hire people to do the denial gruntwork.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#49 - 2011-11-24 05:45:54 UTC
W-space will generally be fine (due to basic mechanics of how w-holes work), and the deeper inside the rabbit hole you go, probably the better. Most of the w-space folks that I know are a very adaptive breed. They'll either figure out some way to protect the existing Interbus COs or draw up plans to have a few POCOs ready to go in case the Interbus COs get blown up or they decide that it's time to get rid of the NPC tax man.

Lo-sec COs / POCOs - I don't see them lasting long. Not unless all of null-sec goes to war and keeps everyone occupied for the next 3-9 months.
Shana Matika
KDM Enterprises
#50 - 2011-11-24 09:46:17 UTC
Ariane VoxDei wrote:
tengen san wrote:
You see there are a deep strategic value to “poff” a POCO once the eyes of market gouger fall on it.

The 100mil is just the build price for the BPC holder. The market price will be +100%, 200mil x 5 to cover a P1-P4 production is a substantial investment to put on line never to see its amortization.

At least someone gets it. Sov-null suddenly has a big opening to leverage the protection they have. Unprotected space (low and WH) will take it in the butt over this.
Given the massive economic impact it potentially has, it would easily pay to hire people to do the denial gruntwork.



Maybe that's the main issue.

OK. CCP want 0.0 more self sustainable and even more "free" - How about:

Highsec: Concord - like introduced - Untargetable
Lowsec: Interbus - like actual system (fees of actual level) - when attacked an Interbus fleet shows up and kicks the Sh** out of em *gr - or just untargetable
Nullsec: Player owned - player driven - can get shoot - sov space provides some form of protection by design (maybe an HP increase with Industry-Level and connection to industry level gain of system?).

Oh an no, I don't compare the time for oneshooting a noobfrig and a gang shooting 30min on a static structure - but it has somehow the same effort: Press F1 and wait. You don't get anything for that but you do it cause you can do it...
whaynethepain
#51 - 2011-11-24 10:21:09 UTC
On a side note, I imagine many people will get mails with my name on as I shoot every single POCO I pass by.

I think CCP is holding profits back to keep the market stable during the POCO hand over.

But yea, I would want to tax hostile's off my planets.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#52 - 2011-11-24 10:22:25 UTC
Omen,

Highsec taxes on Sisi for P0 and P1 are still at absurd values that bear no relationship to your devblogs. Instead of being double the TQ values, they are 10x current tax for P0, and 11%-26% for P1. See bug report #118790, still unfiltered.

If this is intended, I'd love to hear your reasoning.

Also, funnily enough, someone deleted the highsec customs office I was using to test, while leaving all the others untouched.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2011-11-24 10:28:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Alisarina
whaynethepain wrote:
On a side note, I imagine many people will get mails with my name on as I shoot every single POCO I pass by.

I think CCP is holding profits back to keep the market stable during the POCO hand over.

But yea, I would want to tax hostile's off my planets.



Can't you just deny people access if they are under a certain standing with the owning corp? Thought I saw that on a dev blog somewhere, or was that something about how the taxing thing worked? I can't remember.

Either way, given the option of allowing hostiles to make ISK from my investment or totally denying them access to making profit, I know which I would choose.

EDIT:

Also Jack Dent: Sorry about your CO you where testing with, I needed something to wash down all the tears from people crying about how their low sec planets are now going to be nonviable for them cos of evil taxes. It was delicious.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#54 - 2011-11-24 10:51:06 UTC
Alisarina wrote:

Can't you just deny people access if they are under a certain standing with the owning corp? Thought I saw that on a dev blog somewhere, or was that something about how the taxing thing worked? I can't remember.

Yes, you can set both different rates for different standings, or a minimum standing to access it.

Quote:
Either way, given the option of allowing hostiles to make ISK from my investment or totally denying them access to making profit, I know which I would choose.

Personally, I'd just crank their taxes up as high as possible, but I'm subtle like that.

Quote:
Also Jack Dent: Sorry about your CO you where testing with, I needed something to wash down all the tears from people crying about how their low sec planets are now going to be nonviable for them cos of evil taxes. It was delicious.

What evil taxes? I think you misunderstood, the current sisi taxes are ridiculously low. To the point where, at 100% tax, you need 20 years to pay for a POCO with a single P1 extraction colony.

I was looking forward to putting up a few POCOs in my lowsec area to farm PI taxes. But with the current rates, I don't see anyone doing that.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2011-11-24 11:18:30 UTC
Not having dabled with Sisi I was unaware of the low taxes currently in place there atm. I was under the impression it would be changed or something when it came live on TQ. That's assumptions for you...almost always wrong :(
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#56 - 2011-11-24 13:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Scrapyard Bob
Last time I had a chance to look at these was Nov 18th:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=382233#post382233

Quote:
More detailed singularity test server data from this morning, using a hi-sec CO set to a 10% tariff:

P0 - Everything was 0.50 ISK/u for import.

P1 - All 0.05 ISK/u for import except for:

Oxygen - 0.10 import
Water - 0.10 import

P2 - all 9.00 ISK/u for import

P3 - all 600 ISK/u for import

P4 - all 50k ISK/u for import.


Are the above values still holding true on Sisi? (Edit: Just checked values on Sisi - those above numbers are still in use.)

No word from the devs other then "our economist is going to look at it". The ratios between the tariffs bear no relationship to the underlying math of how the tiers relate to each other. When I looked at things on Sisi, the ratios between the tiers for the tariffs was as follows:

P0:P1 = 1:10 (absurdly low, even worse then TQ)
P0:P2 = 18:1
P0:P3 = 1200:1
P0:P4 = 100000:1

When you look at what is required to make (in units) the different tiers, the tariff rates need to be roughly along the same lines or you get really weird things like the existing P1/P2 tariffs.

P0:P1 ratio is 150:1
P1:P2 ratio is 16:1 (P0:P2 is 2400:1)
P2:P3 ratio is between 6.67:1 and 10:1, I tend to just split the diff and go with 8.5:1 (P0:P3 would be 20400:1)
P3:P4 ratio varies but is either 12:1 plus a bit of P1, or 18:1, so call it 15:1 (P0:P4 ratio of 306000)

Which - assuming that CCP wants us to pay 100k per P4 exported, gives the following tariffs for hi-sec:

P0: 0.3268
P1: 49
P2: 784
P3: 6667
P4: 100k

Or, if you agree that higher tiers should pay slightly lower tariffs as a reward for doing multi-step on a single planet, then you could adjust those ratios downward at each step by 7%.

P0:P1 = 140:1
P0:P2 = 2100:1
P0:P3 = 16800:1
P0:P4 = 235200:1

P0: 0.4252
P1: 59.50
P2: 893
P3: 7143
P4: 100k
tengen san
Triton-TC
#57 - 2011-11-24 15:42:48 UTC  |  Edited by: tengen san
Shana Matika wrote:



Lowsec: Interbus - like actual system (fees of actual level) - when attacked an Interbus fleet shows up and kicks the Sh** out of em *gr - or just untargetable


Making Low sec. as secure as high sec won’t cure the problem.

High sec = as intended
Low sec = POC holding corps can’t refuse to take or deny customers, so consequently eliminate any standing prerequisite for low sec.
This at least would gain a theoretical interest to use the POC by any others than members of the holding corp to add anticipate tax income, theoretically of course. If a corporation set up in low sec (what I truly do not believe) they focus mainly for their own PI production, so any tax issue is irrelevant anyway as charging no tax gives your own products an price advantage on the market.

For 0.0.; Of course you want to keep your foes off your lawn. So implementation as intended, zero tax for corp members and renters receive an “out of system “taxation, probably % share of the product to keep prices in balance. Problem solved for 0.0.!



But it won’t work as intended anyway!

Still any tax income is just theoretical but bears no practical relevance as even lucrative Planets in 0.1. /0.2.won’t attrac more than 5 foreign installations. For now even less, as none of the “public” users ever can be sure to use them in a productive sense in the long term.

WH holders will go into PI big time (zero tax) if the earnings bear any merits what is to be expect once the prices go to spike.

So again, no matter which taxation you imply it a.) never will pay off the investment as.) no one will set up a PI installation and willing to pay the requested tax on his export to a foreign corporation while his sales price (based on the higher export tax) is heavily under bided by corporations with zero taxation on their export.

It certainly was a nice idea to hand the CO’s over in players hands. But unfortunately it will not work out as intended.

Weather you scrap the tax, or make them defendable, otherwise they will lose any and all attraction in low sec.
tengen san
Triton-TC
#58 - 2011-11-24 16:13:54 UTC
tengen san wrote:
Shana Matika wrote:



Lowsec: Interbus - like actual system (fees of actual level) - when attacked an Interbus fleet shows up and kicks the Sh** out of em *gr - or just untargetable


Making Low sec. as secure as high sec won’t cure the problem.

High sec = as intended
Low sec = POC holding corps can’t refuse to take or deny customers, so consequently eliminate any standing prerequisite for low sec.
This at least would gain a theoretical interest to use the POC by any others than members of the holding corp to add anticipate tax income, theoretically of course. If a corporation set up in low sec (what I truly do not believe) they focus mainly for their own PI production, so any tax issue is irrelevant anyway as charging no tax gives your own products an price advantage on the market.

For 0.0.; Of course you want to keep your foes off your lawn. So implementation as intended, zero tax for corp members and renters receive an “out of system “taxation, probably % share of the product to keep prices in balance. Problem solved for 0.0.!



But it won’t work as intended anyway!

Still any tax income is just theoretical but bears no practical relevance as even lucrative Planets in 0.1. /0.2.won’t attract more than 5 foreign installations. For now even less, as none of the “public” users ever can be sure to use them in a productive sense in the long term.

WH holders will go into PI big time (zero tax) if the earnings bear any merits what is to be expect once the prices go to spike.

So again, no matter which taxation you imply it a.) never will pay off the investment as b.) no one will set up a PI installation and willing to pay the requested tax on his export to a foreign corporation while his sales price (based on the higher export tax) is heavily under bided by corporations with zero taxation on their export.

It certainly was a nice idea to hand the CO’s over in players hands. But unfortunately it will not work out as intended.

Weather you scrap the tax, or make them defendable, otherwise they will lose any and all attraction in low sec.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#59 - 2011-11-24 16:27:45 UTC
tengen san wrote:

High sec = as intended
Low sec = POC holding corps can’t refuse to take or deny customers, so consequently eliminate any standing prerequisite for low sec.
This at least would gain a theoretical interest to use the POC by any others than members of the holding corp to add anticipate tax income, theoretically of course. If a corporation set up in low sec (what I truly do not believe) they focus mainly for their own PI production, so any tax issue is irrelevant anyway as charging no tax gives your own products an price advantage on the market.

Those POCOs are not free. Even if you anchor them yourself, set tax to 0%, you will have to recoup the investment through higher prices.

Quote:
For 0.0.; Of course you want to keep your foes off your lawn. So implementation as intended, zero tax for corp members and renters receive an “out of system “taxation, probably % share of the product to keep prices in balance. Problem solved for 0.0.!

Heh, 0% tax for corp members in 0.0? Have you checked what's the (bounty) tax rate of 0.0 corps? The corp needs some way to pay for those POCOs, plus all the other expenses.

Quote:
Still any tax income is just theoretical but bears no practical relevance as even lucrative Planets in 0.1. /0.2.won’t attract more than 5 foreign installations. For now even less, as none of the “public” users ever can be sure to use them in a productive sense in the long term.

At current tax rates, yes. With reasonable tax rates (closer to market value), just a handful of neutral users would be enough to repay the POCO in a couple months.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
tengen san
Triton-TC
#60 - 2011-11-24 17:42:18 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Those POCOs are not free. Even if you anchor them yourself, set tax to 0%, you will have to recoup the investment through higher prices.


POCO's are corp asset, once the ROI is completed there is no reason for taxation if you price adjustments will gives you market advantage. Higher prices will be a general outcome. After reiciving the ROI it’s all about who can beat the market price. You’re out of competition against anyone selling on a 0 tax scheme.


Jack Dant wrote:
Heh, 0% tax for corp members in 0.0? Have you checked what's the (bounty) tax rate of 0.0 corps? The corp needs some way to pay for those POCOs, plus all the other expenses.


So corpmembers are included in the “internal tax system”. Taking from renters and so it be, also from corp members X% of the production in goods as an internal tax system places you in a market advantage over anyone who need to add the tax on the sales price.


Jack Dent wrote:
Quote:
Still any tax income is just theoretical but bears no practical relevance as even lucrative Planets in 0.1. /0.2.won’t attract more than 5 foreign installations. For now even less, as none of the “public” users ever can be sure to use them in a productive sense in the long term.


At current tax rates, yes. With reasonable tax rates (closer to market value), just a handful of neutral users would be enough to repay the POCO in a couple months.


Would you give assurance to the neutral customer to set up a new POCO within the couple month’s period once it was taken down defenseless? Are you willing to repeat the effort continually no matter the cost? (Further infestment)

How do you intent to hold your "tax cows" on the planet. Are you able to come up with the resources to assure uninterrupted production flow? (guarding and defending your POCO) Where is the point you decide to give in after Investment . /. Income drops heavily out of balance.

They hotdrop you and clear out a system within hours, getting rid of any competition. You will see Merch’s on 0.0. alliances payroll doing nothing but “poff” POCO’s in low. It will become a save source of income for them. You would be surprised on the financial capability of 0.0. alliances and willingnes to bring them in deployment if the make up their expens by gauging the market.

Don’t get me wrong here, I am convinced it could be a great feature and to be more constructive major changes need to applied, as it is now, it will simply not feasible within the game realities. The more I spend time on it, the more I come to the conclusion the CO change is nothing less, yet hidden so, but the major earning buff for 0.0. they ever have cried out for.