Science & Industry

A wall of text... FROM A GOONIE?!?!?!?

WTF is happening to these forums?!!?!!? C'mon, people, we have standards, here!!

CCP Omen,

You have access to the database. Have you checked how much isk/day is paid per lowsec PI colony? And what are the average and maximum numbers of colonies per lowsec planet?

In other words, do you have any evidence that POCOs can pay for themselves via taxes? My quick calculations gave me something silly like 20 years for a single P1 export colony.

Omen, thank you for the reply. In the long term, I imagine that PI income should be much more important than moon mineral income. That will be necessary for DUST 514 to succeed, as players will need to REALLY care about planets. When PI becomes more important than moons, alliances will not be taxing their own POCOs at 0%. Instead, POCOs will be a form of alliance income. That is why I am so concerned about the taxation issue: without it having higher reference values and also being fully customizable by the players, there is much less incentive for players to deploy and fight over control of POCOs.

Hopefully your economist will appreciate both the disparity between current reference values / market values, and how the increased taxation would function as an ISK sink. PI-producing players themselves could pass off the increased taxation in the form of higher prices at market, so a change in default taxes should not "hurt the little guy".

POCOs don't drop anything on destruction, so you can't really call them a piñata


Devs have said they won't send a mail until a sizable amount of damage has been done (to avoid spam). Besides, odds are you won't get there in time before they reinforce, so it shouldn't matter much.


Seems to me you are complaining about how hard it will be to defend POCOs far away from your base.

This is bad how?

The subject of taxation is coherently with the desire/estimation to set up a POCO in first place, none will daub this. On another notice to the closing words of the PO, I do not see an imminent relevance to the D514 implementation AND dependence to the success, as for now, most if not all D514 engagement is considered to be on Temperate Planets only (please refer to the Interview with Hallan Fannar on dust514.org)





Using the CC launch is worthless for one and for second the ability to build/use a Launchpad is
conjoint with the existence of a CO /POCO, third, any further import requires a CO/POCO just
As for now each and every single low sec planet contains a CO, thus not only risk. /. reward is in balance but the market as well.
The question herby is, why even bother to set up a POCO in a low sec system in first place if a.) the tax profitability is next to nothing with a mere 1-3 or 2-5 CC’s on the ground. b.) no advanced knowledge what type of production is on the ground, in regards of the taxable reverence value of P1/P2/P3/P4.




Thank you very much for the consiterations, but further review must be done as for now non of the above will be possible in low sec.

The taxation for 0.0. Alliances as a problem would not “really occur”, as assumable there will be other means come to task to “tax” the renter, but it will have a devastating effect on low sec.

I daub heavily anyone who is able to operate a calculator will seriously invest near to a bill for POCO to cover a P1-P4 production circle in a low sec system, as only the base materials will be retrieved and valued production will be directed to high sec. This, caused by diversity in separated tax values will make the diversity obsolete in the run, thus the desire to set up a POCO in low sec.

Function of a 0.0 PI operations within an alliance is to discriminate to low sec with rather general than allied PI usage.

But even if there would be a hypothetical widespread POCO low sec use with a, as proposed, taxation system at work, the in-balance of tax earnings would be in 0.0. fare greater compared to low sec with the ability to roll out valued production to high sec.
However this will not be the case, as low sec PI will come to an halt and the in-balance then will be created by the PI monopol of 0.0.

The whole change from CO to POCO should/must be revised for a resubmittal and the implementation for 28.Nov seriously reconsidered to the next extension.

a. No tax income to receive in 0.0. and low sec to justifying the investment
b. Dismounting all CO's throughout low sec is counterproductive to the attempt of revitalize low sec.

how I see POCO's as they stand to be implemented in real world views is thus:

- A giant balloon that cost over $2000 with writing on it saying 'Pop me, I'm an easy kill'


Now imagine that being taken to a school of 8-12 year olds. What will happen to every balloon like that in the yard after the first or second day? They will all be popped and no-one will want to replace them due to the cost. Not a great example due to balloons not actually doing anything productive but the principle is the same, there is no incentive to replace popped/destroyed balloons due to the cost and how easy they are popped/destroyed.

In low sec, any of the systems that border onto a high sec connection or within 2-3 jumps of one will be prime targets for 'pirates' and bored people that just want to make other peoples lives hell. A fleet of 5-10 BS's or as many new tier 3 BC's will be able to go in and within 2-3 hours wipe out every planets CO, well put them into reinforce mode, and the move onto the next system to do it again. Now no way in hell there will only be 1 small gang doing this, so expect all low sec system CO's within say 3 jumps of a HS system to be in reinforced by at best the 1-2nd of December, and a day or so after that, without CO's at all.

Now sure some may go about replacing the destroyed CO's with their own POCO's on the 'best' planets but that alone would make them a prime target, even if the tax was 0%. Why? Cos haters gonna hate and people like blowing other peoples **** up for a laugh. Come Christmas low sec planets not being 'guarded' by corps/alliances will be void of CO's (both interbus and POCO's) and thus make them 'dead'. There will be no way to import to them making factory planets non-existant, and exporting via launches is both annoying as hell and in some/most cases, wholly inadequate for the task at hand due to high-ish yields. Also with Christmas coming up alot of the bored ounger players will have time to roam around and blow up CO's thinking they are 'the boss' because they killed a structure that cannot fight back and no-one can be bothered defending or unable to defend due to the shear number of them being attacked.


Now with all the doom and gloom said above here are some thoughts I have regarding the CO/POCO's and how to make them both viable as an investment (without forcing massive tax and forcing away 'clients' from your planet..or making them want to pop your multi million ISK investment cos your a money grubbing bastard) and as a place that can actually defend itself to a limited degree.

First off POCO defence:

Currently the proposed POCO's have no defensive capabilities at all. This will result, as stated above, they will be shot at simply due to the fact that they are there.

I propose after setting them up to be functional, you can upgrade it just like the CC. I will admit I havn't thought this through properly but I want to get it out there before the 29th:

Level: Name:
1 Customs Office (or POCO)
2: Trade Center
3: Trade Hub
4: Outpost (I know the names used, need to come up with a better one)
5: Fortified Trading Hub


Now what they do:
CO/POCO: Work how they work currently on SiSi/Tranq

Trade Center: Works the same as above but better shields/armour

Trade Hub: As above but allows anchoring of small-medium PoS guns (small number) (only shoot if aggressed, even if the owning corp is at war with someone using the CO)

Outpost: As above but add in Large guns

Fortified Trade Hub: More shields, armour and structure as all of the others, able to have more guns


The way to make more ISK from them is each level of CO will assist with locating better hot spots on the planet they orbit and allows the planet to have slightly higher yields. However the disadvantage would be there can only be 1 of each type in any given system, except the basic CO/POCO, so there is incentive to still blow up the bigger ones and such.

The advantage would be:

Level: Resource boost:
1 0%
2 3%
3 6%
4 10%
5 15%

Now the boost would be to the planets available resources, not player extractor production or factory output, just what can be found (making the advanced ones useless on a world used just as a factory world, which is intended). The % jumps would be reflected in the cost of setting them up and the fact only 1 of each could be present at any given time in a system.

Long post I know but hey, if the threads being read by the devs, it's the best place to put it to 'paper' after all.


Also note the guns would have to be deployed and anchored by the owning corp, kind of like a PoS, but have no functionality for them to fight on war dec targets or under a certain standing, only if aggressed.

Thoughts on this for those that actually read it all would be great.

What you've described is basically what we said back when the first devblog was announced - make them into POS tower structures with the capability to only anchor select POS arrays/batteries. Make them require less fuel/day then their full-fledged brethren. Or let us anchor POS towers at the planets and anchor a POCO as a battery outside the shield.

The devs basically ignored or glossed over the issue of defenses, repeatedly - probably because they didn't have time to rework the entire POCO concept before the 28th (and it is too much of a "sacred cow" to be pulled completely for a 2-3 month rework).

I think an AFK defense is BOOOOORRRRRRIIIIIINNNNNNNGGGGGG, and am pretty interested in the dynamic this will create, in low sec especially, if CCP doesn't cave and lets people anchor guns around these things.

I'm no economist, but if POCOs are getting destroyed in low sec, won't that create scarcity? In turn pushing prices of PI goods up, and making consistent and organized low sec corporations viable and desirable?

I mean, I keep seeing people say "why bother". Well, if there's lots of cash money to be made, wouldn't you bother? Even to the extent that you might be interested in building an infrastructure in the area, including defensive capabilities in the shape of PEOPLE to defend your POCO?

I like this notion of localizing resources. If you're mining, PIing in an area, then live there, and build something around it. Particularly in Lowsec.

I mean, this might even make the mercenary trade viable. Would you hire someone of good reputation to protect your assets, if their fee did not make your efforts unprofitable?

POCOs have 15m EHP. That's their defense for now. They are very cheap to replace (100m isk) and have 15m EHP, plus a reinforcement timer. Some people may shoot them but it's not gonna be done casually because of "kids". It takes a long time to reinforce one unless you have a nicely sized, very high DPS gang (or capitals). Since they only cost 100m isk and have a reinforcement timer, they are trivial to defend/replace.

I am not worried about POCO defenses at the moment, they are low value targets. By design.

Well so are noob frigs - but do you see any stop shooting them while traveling through a lowsec gate?

They will get destroyed just for the "tears".
And while a Lowsec-POS can get a fairly good defence this things just float in space like a big, fat "Shoot me" sign.