Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Oh my god. I think we all need a definition of what a Straw man is.



Your entire argument attempting to fight my position, was a straw man, by calling my position a straw man, and introducing elements to the discussion that is not apart of the discussion.

Second: You, and a number of others continue to out right IGNORE sections of my arguments in attempts to strengthen their's. This of course makes your argument weak as you fail to address my points.

Third: You just brought down your entire argument by posting this.



Local, is not the same everywhere, the fact that there are sections of space, wormhole space, but still space, which is accessible by EVERYONE makes your entire argument invalid due to the fact that once again, you create miss information, thus further weakening your argument in the eyes that know that local is not the same everywhere.

Then you perform a Cherry picking fallacy that you just pick certain cases as your bases for claiming something is over powered and unbalanced, yet you don't provide any information, or proof. Infact, I have yet to see anyone provide factual data to PROVE THE CLOAK IS OP.

Here some quick guide lines you can follow to help yourself discover if it really over powered.

First, of all those that cloak and sit in a system, how many of those actually perform hot drops?
Second, how many cloaking ships are destroyed in low and null sec space.
Third, how many hot drops are successful, vs how many fizzle and the target got away/counter hot dropped.
Fourth: How many cloaking vessels got a kill(s) with a hot drop vs how many non-cloaking vessels got a kill(s) with hot drops
Fifth, how many cloak able vessels get kills without hotdrop vs how many cloak-able vessels get kills without hot dropping.

On and on another base of that quote:



Base on that, lets turn around for you. Cloak is the same everywhere(which isn't a lie, and true, cloak does exactly the same thing, everywhere) yet only a "problem" where the efforts of wa whole alliance/corp makes it useful.

So... The existance of wormholes, which have a plethora of other rules differences from the other areas besides just how local functions, and is in fact a special case in nearly every aspect, somehow invalidates the fact that local is only overpowered when the concetrated and continuous efforts of a large amount of players works to make it useful? Will it make you feel better if I accept your rebuke and amend my argument to say that local is the same in all of K-space, but somehow only becomes a 'problem' where the efforts of alliance sized groups of players lays out the effort and manpower to secure that space?

I think cloaks are OP because of any ship in open space they are the only one safe from player interaction of any kind. You are literally safer cloaked in space than you are inside a POS Shield, because at least they can be bumped out, or stolen outright by traitors if unpiloted. Even then, I feel cloaks are only a little too powerful. They should be as huntable as anything else in open space, even if it requires special modules, skills or even hulls to be effective at it. Even then they are only slightly op.

The real issue comes when they are combined with a standard cyno. A cyno ship that can be hunted is fine. A cloak is mostly fine. An immune to aggression until it attacks titan fleet is not fine.

for the record, cloaks can drop cynos in low sec. and this isnt a problem there.

genius!!

except im an advocate for making cloaks detectable and at the same time changing local.

give urself a biscuit eh?

Local is essentially an advanced warning system. It updates as soon as someone jumps in system while telling you who it is, what corp they are in, etc... And it doesn't even matter what ship they might be in, as the locals warp instantly to a pos/station. What's worse is that you cannot counter it. You can kill cloakys but you can't kill local. Clearly, local is more unbalanced than cloaking.

Im glad this blossomed while I was out. some people more enlightened to the subject showed up on both sides.

though I dont think a consensus will be reached because to agree (in some minds) is to admit defeat, regardless if progress is made. nerfing local in my opinion is just making cloakers jobs easier at something they already dont need help with

I have no issue with probes being used to gain an approximate warp-able location near the cloaked vessel. You should be able to get near them, but you should still have to work to find them. So... for the comment:

High Sec has Concord, which is why a ganker does not use a Proteus to gank a miner but a catalyst. They are guaranteed to lose their ship to CONCORD and know the gankee cannot proactively shoot them - because a few miners can do serious damage to a catalyst with tech II drones. But the opposite is true in Low/Null Sec: the miner can be proactive but the ganker is most likely coming at you in something like a Proteus. A few miners with Tech II drones could proactively shoot the Proteus, but they will all die and the Proteus will then go their merry way. The PvE person is more disadvantaged than the PvP person in all situations.

In Null Sec, the PvE-er has the advantage of local. They can see if someone enters and can take action to dock/warp to safe. Irregardless of the alliance, there are always gaps in play times. PVPers are not always online, sometimes the miner's PvP alt is on the same account. So swapping out is the problem.

If the ship had no cloak, you could use DSCAN to see if there is an incoming. If the Ship is covert-ops capable, DSCAN is useless (the main problem for WH dwellers conducting PvE activities).

So, a cloaked ship can effectively shut down a Low/Null sec system by being there. Only until a enough people are online who can co-ordinate an effort to remove the threat - mainly by baiting the target, can the threat be eliminated which can take days to weeks.

This kind of a situation can be combated with a lot of effort and does not require a nerf to cloaking.

Perhaps something easier to add rather than nerfing cloaking while providing an interesting counter without hindering gameplay too much would be a mobile unit capable of detecting cloaked vessels up to 5 AU away but incapable of giving any idea of where it is located or being able to decloak the vessel. While this won't prevent the afk cloaker from camping their most favored target: ice belts, it at least would give the locals the ability to know if there was something more than just themselves in that area. The module could behave in a similar manner to the cyno jamming module by being single use and taking two minutes to anchor while lasting a few hours and incapable of being picked back up. The detection range can be adjusted from 500 KM to 5AU at the time it is dropped but whether you could have more than one on grid is another matter.

Because it would unbalance an entire section of space that is unique and unbroken compared to the rest of Eve. Cloaking for an extended period of time is essential to wormhole space. The option to refuel is not readily available when you are cut off from your home system or any k-space.



Just today I sat on a pos for 40 minutes, gathering names of players, ship types, etc...Wormhole space has no intel tools other than what our cloaked ships provide us. Again, it would be game breaking for us



After all these ideas you have posted, I think you might as well suggest that CCP just remove the cloak from the game entirely.

TL'DR but I liked the capslock part
+1

I've responded to claoking "issues" at length in other threads and will not do so again here as you should have posted in that thread in the first place, no new ground is being broken here.

Here is the main point: these threads always breaks down to the following at some point and I see it as a critical flaw for people who want cloakers removed and you fell into it as well:

At some point these threads always imply that because someone is cloaked and in a system you want to use, you can't attack them unless they come for you first. The direct implication being that you would attack them if you could for control of the system. I don't believe for a second that you would prefer an uncloaked and angry Hyperion to someone who might be asleep and I feel reasonably sure you'd avoid both of them. This is not a judgement of your decision but, as you said in the OP, you are trying to make ISK. It is therefore reasonable for me to assume you don't want someone else getting in the way and I can even understand why that would be. When you are trying to make ISK however, it is also reasonable to assume that you would prefer to avoid pvp altogether, also understandable as ISK is a means not an end and pvp fits do not perform the function efficiently. Where the bullshit comes in is where you imply you would prefer a clear and present threat to a potential one and I don't buy that for a second.

A big part of this argument rests on the "I would fight them if I could" part and since you're not willing to make one more jump to rat/plex in a system without a neutral in local I doubt very much you would engage a ship or ships to clear said system first if they were visible and clearly present. If you did change systems local would alert you straight away if the cloaker is at his keyboard when he jumps because if he had been auto-piloting who would have activated the cloak in the first place? Other than auto-pilot there is no way for an AFK player to jump through a stargate. That local window is also critical because it will alert you to a potentially threatening cloaker if you will just change systems and it is also the part these threads always like to claim is not sufficient to protect them. Well if nothing else, all I have to say is this: Whether local is sufficient for you or not, it's all you're going to get.

Really what AFK cloaking threads reveal is that you are very short-sighted and would gladly trade in the future of the game or aspects of it at least (see earlier post on the critical nature of cloaks in wormholes) for your own safety while you make ISK. Again I understand why you want it but it's critical you understand why you can't have it.