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[PIE] Kameira Program
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Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2014-05-17 15:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Agiri Falken wrote:

Since you can't read, let me help...

Don't like being judged, stop trying to. That simple enough for you?


I am choking in Irony here.

Stop pointing out the hypocrisies of a few people Matar Ronin, or else they will have to resort to Republic-wide ad-hominem attacks to protect their failing justifications!

Samira Kernher wrote:
Please take derailing arguments to PMs or threads more dedicated to those subjects.


Very well.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Matar Ronin
#102 - 2014-05-17 16:24:12 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
I find it interesting that the Sansha still have incursions into Caldari space, when if you were to believe some posting here they would prefer death to being enslaved.

Haven't you heard, that Sansha lift peoples and make them into slaves by replacing their brains (partly) with schematics?

And your affection to concept of slavery is unhealthy. Make sure to check in to medbay.

Haven't you heard the slave cultists place collars around the necks of their victims that chemically cause dependence and addiction. As well as introducing debilitating pain when remotely triggered. Perhaps you falsely believe the state citizen has a natural immunity to this chemical but you are wrong. The drug addiction and slave collars they use work on all humans, your state citizens are not exempt.

Turning around a lifetime of lies told to the Kameiras does not happen overnight, but any intelligent human can make their own decision after enough time has passed and they are able to get access to the truths previously hidden from them. The fact that the slave cultists isolate them and expend them like ammunition in the most dangerous combat roles is something we do not have to explain to them. Once removed from that environment they can use their own intellectual processes to determine what real value the slave cultists had placed on them.

Faced with the undisputed truth or the continuing acceptance of a lie most, not all, but most select the truth. If you find that hard to believe then I am pretty sure what category you would fit into of these two groups.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#103 - 2014-05-17 20:05:31 UTC
What kind of strawman arguments are going on in here? Who claimed the Caldari were, by virtue of our indomitable will, immune to the effects of psychology, pharmacology or cybernetics?

And Ayallah, you forget that the only difference between what was done to you and what was done to us was that we faced arguably a stronger foe and we did so in a weaker position. We had one planet and a few outposts. We fought the technological colossus that was the Federal Navy with Patrol craft and converted water carriers. We were bombed off that planet but we evacuated and rebuilt and continued the war.

Don't act like we have no idea what hardship is.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Matar Ronin
#104 - 2014-05-17 20:46:26 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
What kind of strawman arguments are going on in here? Who claimed the Caldari were, by virtue of our indomitable will, immune to the effects of psychology, pharmacology or cybernetics?

No strawman arguments..... scroll back and read the fact free rantings of your fellow state citizen.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#105 - 2014-05-17 20:47:15 UTC
Pretty sure they're taking Diana Kim seriously or at least pretends to when it's useful to build strawmen. Which of course speaks volumes as to their honesty in such discussions. On the other hand, there's no need to respond in kind, Pieter. They are very well aware of their failings and we have no need to point them out, even if they have some deep-seated urge to elevate themselves by trying to demean others.

Our accomplishments and our own flaws belong firmly to us, there is no need to respond to childish hyperbole. Save your efforts for the more reasonable ones, who debate in earnest and with honesty.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Matar Ronin
#106 - 2014-05-17 21:04:17 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Pretty sure they're taking Diana Kim seriously or at least pretends to when it's useful to build strawmen. Which of course speaks volumes as to their honesty in such discussions. On the other hand, there's no need to respond in kind, Pieter. They are very well aware of their failings and we have no need to point them out, even if they have some deep-seated urge to elevate themselves by trying to demean others.

Our accomplishments and our own flaws belong firmly to us, there is no need to respond to childish hyperbole. Save your efforts for the more reasonable ones, who debate in earnest and with honesty.

Ah! I see your point, my mistake in responding seriously to what is clearly just an IGS noise box.

I take it most Caldari distance themselves from the nonsense that emits from Diana Kim. I will not bite on that rotten bait anymore in the future.

Besides this thread was about the Kameiras and I wanted our successes in repatriating them into Minmatar society as a fighting force against the slave cultists on the record.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#107 - 2014-05-17 21:13:29 UTC
Well, to be honest I don't think anyone knows what she is. Crazy, satire, mental patient, who knows?

I would just be careful about the repossessed Kameiras. When you have been trained and indoctrinated from birth and all the ones not toeing the line weeded from the program, it takes more than just "telling them the truth" to make them anything but Amarrian in all but blood.

You don't even need to look at Kameiras to see that. Take any freed slave population and you'll find a significant portion of them retaining the faith they've had since birth, their desire to be at the only home they've ever known and having their lives in the Empire in peace.

However distasteful the means and situation is, many of them are Amarrian. Who you are is not just your blood.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2014-05-17 21:29:30 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
even if they have some deep-seated urge to elevate themselves by trying to demean others.

Our accomplishments and our own flaws belong firmly to us, there is no need to respond to childish hyperbole. Save your efforts for the more reasonable ones, who debate in earnest and with honesty.


Hypocrisy 101

May I remind you?

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
We may not be perfect, but we are not you, at least. When you can feed your own people, educate them and tend to their wounds then you can come back here and lecture us.


He came at us.
To win points against someone pointing out the hypocrisy in supporting one group of slavers and demonizing another he attempted to elevate himself by demeaning an entire people. Speaking of accomplishments and flaws that did not belong to him. You want earnest and honesty, you got it.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

you forget that the only difference between what was done to you and what was done to us was that we faced arguably a stronger foe and we did so in a weaker position.
Don't act like we have no idea what hardship is.


"Arguably stronger foe in a weaker position"
In what ******* universe?!! Get the **** out of here with your idiotic **** measuring contest of who suffered more, I never once said the State had no hardships. I said you had absolutely no idea what we had gone through and no position at all to judge us especially not to score points in an IGS post by insulting ALL of us.

What I did say was actually a wordy version of: shut the **** up about the Republic.
Because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are so goddamn uniformed that I need to lend you my library and three shamans to tutor you.

"Arguably stronger foe in a weaker position" **** you.
Keep to your state, choke on your parroted propaganda, 'we fought harder' bullshit, and kindly **** off.
Or can you not get your nose out of the air quick enough to see the fight you do not want on the horizon?

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#109 - 2014-05-17 21:37:07 UTC
Awwah. Someone has a bad case of "nuh uh! Argument invalid because REASONS!".

May I remind you that the entire thing started with some fairly significant untruths about both the Caldari and the State, equivocating necessary alliances with Kuvakei's madness? Are you truly surprised when someone turns around and points out your own failings?

Of course, you're too busy denying the points by trying to demean the speaker, and apparently threatening violence over it.

How civilized.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2014-05-17 22:01:20 UTC
Trying to make me out to be childish will not change how YOU are perceived.

If he made an inaccurate statement, come at him as I have come at you. Shut him up.

See if I get involved then.

If you want a detailed and sourced summary of why he is wrong then PM me. If you want civilized, then do not stab at a people screaming hypocrisies and complain when you get shut down for it.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#111 - 2014-05-17 22:04:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Mmmmh. Somebody clearly doesn't want to admit that the Federation Navy at the time we fought them was arguably stronger than the Amarrian Navy at the time the Republic fought them. I say arguably because the Federation doesn't have the same tonnage as the Amarrian Navy but is absolutely superior in terms of technology and training. Of course the Amarrian Navy is still superior in sheer tonnage to the Federation Navy today, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone claiming they were comparable in strength.

As for who was in a weaker position - well we had one planet and some deep range outpost colonies. The Republic had, what was it, seven long-settled worlds? You can argue that the Caldari were more militaristic in spirit than the Matari, but that's ignoring the fact that we didn't have many dedicated military vessels larger than frigates.

Yes. Our most famous ship in that battle WAS a converted water carrier. Tovil-Toba's flagship, no less.

Now, here's the thing. You might think I dislike the Matari - except I'm on the record supporting them. I've repeatedly said that I strongly wish they hadn't allied against us with the Gallente. I've repeatedly said that I think they make a better ideological partner for us than the Empire, with it's thinly-veiled desire to gobble up our systems and crap out our culture, replacing it with their own.

I sincerely believe we could teach each other a great deal - but that all goes out the window when one of them attacks us. Because that's what I was doing, responding to an attack of precisely the type I've been accused of making.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#112 - 2014-05-17 22:06:23 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:

I take it most Caldari distance themselves from the nonsense that emits from Diana Kim. I will not bite on that rotten bait anymore in the future.


Oh Maker, please don't assume that Kim-haani speaks for all Caldari. Her views are on the far side of extreme - for example she's a Provist and one of Heth's most outspoken supporters.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#113 - 2014-05-17 22:16:29 UTC
You know, Ayallah, just strutting around and pretending you've said anything that matters doesn't make it so. His arguments have been shown for what they are. False equivocation and hyperbole. You're the one that have started making threats.

I will never pretend to be able to "shut someone down" on the bloody IGS. If you want to actually do it, come find us in space. Otherwise, keep bleating and posing. It suits you.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#114 - 2014-05-17 22:18:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Agiri Falken
Kirjuun, let PIE have their thread back, as they've asked. We both know it's pointless to continue this one. Facts mean little in the end when it comes to this Great Crusade, unless those facts support only one side. Let it lie this time, and let them think what they will. I'm personally to the point of complete apathy, when it comes to this segment of jaijii.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#115 - 2014-05-17 22:21:14 UTC
Wise words. I shouldn't have allowed myself to be baited like this. I'll just wait to see if the threats have anything but hot air behind them.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#116 - 2014-05-17 22:21:25 UTC
23155 — 23248
THE CALDARI-GALLENTE WAR
Inhabiting two planets in the same solar system, the Caldari and Gallente peoples established contact with one another as soon as space technology was developed by the more advanced Gallente. When the Gallente formed their federation with other races they had encountered, such as the Intaki and Mannar, it seemed natural to them that the Caldari should join also.

While the Caldari acquiesced in this, the fiercely independent nature of their corporations led them to establish secret bases and colonies in several star systems. The discovery of these bases was the spark that eventually led to the Caldari-Gallente War. A bitter conflict, the war leads to the expulsion of the Caldari from their home planet and the formation of the Caldari State as a fully-independent corporate empire.

23236
NEW EDEN STANDARD TIME (YC 0)

CALDARI-GALLENTE WAR ENDS (YC 12)
Reduced to sporadic border skirmishes, and with peace talks under way for some years, the long war between the Caldari State and the Gallente Federation finally ends. The Federation fully recognizes the State as a sovereign entity but Caldari Prime remains under Gallente control. For their part, the Caldari State corporations retain control over all their original colonies and bases. As a peace settlement, the agreement was not fully satisfactory to either party and relations between the Federation and State were to remain frosty at best. The status of Caldari Prime, in particular, remained controversial for many Caldari nationalists.

93 years

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gallente-Caldari_War
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Early_Days_(Chronicle)
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Breakout_(Chronicle)
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_War_Drones_On_(Chronicle)

22355 — 22480
THE AMARR-MINMATAR CONFLICT
The Amarr Empire, driven by its religion to “Reclaim” the stars and all living around them, expands rapidly and eventually comes into contact with the much smaller Minmatar Empire. The Amarr easily subdue the Minmatar in an attack known as “The Day of Darkness” and take many thousands of slaves.

The Amarr continue their slave raids for many decades until finally escalating their attacks into an all-out war of conquest. In the end, the Minmatar Empire is no more and the entire Minmatar race enters a period of subjugation and slavery under the rule of the Amarr Empire.

23216
THE GREAT REBELLION
The Amarr Empire, perceiving the Jove as an insidious threat but apparently militarily weak, launch an attempted invasion of the Jove Empire. This attack is swiftly halted in its tracks by the total defeat of the Amarr invasion force by a Jovian mothership at the Battle of Vak’Atioth. The unprecedented and devastating defeat of their fleet throws the Amarr Empire into turmoil and the Minmatar rebel movement seize the moment to strike.

The Great Rebellion results in the expulsion of the Amarr from the Minmatar homeworld and surrounding regions. It is the single greatest loss of territory in the history of the Amarr Empire. The Minmatar Republic is formed and swiftly recognized by the Gallente Federation. The Amarr, in no state to fight a war on multiple fronts, accept reality and concentrate on defending their borders and establishing the Ammatar Mandate, a client state of Minmatar subjects that remain loyal to the Empire.

861 years

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Day_of_Darkness
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Day_of_Darkness_(Chronicle)

Shut the **** up.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2014-05-17 22:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Jinari Otsito wrote:

I will never pretend to be able to "shut someone down" on the bloody IGS. If you want to actually do it, come find us in space. Otherwise, keep bleating and posing. It suits you.


If you feel threatened when I speak then perhaps it is for good reason.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Nakah
I am here and will be.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Matar Ronin
#118 - 2014-05-18 00:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Matar Ronin
Ayallah wrote:
23155 — 23248
THE CALDARI-GALLENTE WAR
Inhabiting two planets in the same solar system, the Caldari and Gallente peoples established contact with one another as soon as space technology was developed by the more advanced Gallente. When the Gallente formed their federation with other races they had encountered, such as the Intaki and Mannar, it seemed natural to them that the Caldari should join also.

While the Caldari acquiesced in this, the fiercely independent nature of their corporations led them to establish secret bases and colonies in several star systems. The discovery of these bases was the spark that eventually led to the Caldari-Gallente War. A bitter conflict, the war leads to the expulsion of the Caldari from their home planet and the formation of the Caldari State as a fully-independent corporate empire.

23236
NEW EDEN STANDARD TIME (YC 0)

CALDARI-GALLENTE WAR ENDS (YC 12)
Reduced to sporadic border skirmishes, and with peace talks under way for some years, the long war between the Caldari State and the Gallente Federation finally ends. The Federation fully recognizes the State as a sovereign entity but Caldari Prime remains under Gallente control. For their part, the Caldari State corporations retain control over all their original colonies and bases. As a peace settlement, the agreement was not fully satisfactory to either party and relations between the Federation and State were to remain frosty at best. The status of Caldari Prime, in particular, remained controversial for many Caldari nationalists.

93 years

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gallente-Caldari_War
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Early_Days_(Chronicle)
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Breakout_(Chronicle)
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_War_Drones_On_(Chronicle)

22355 — 22480
THE AMARR-MINMATAR CONFLICT
The Amarr Empire, driven by its religion to “Reclaim” the stars and all living around them, expands rapidly and eventually comes into contact with the much smaller Minmatar Empire. The Amarr easily subdue the Minmatar in an attack known as “The Day of Darkness” and take many thousands of slaves.

The Amarr continue their slave raids for many decades until finally escalating their attacks into an all-out war of conquest. In the end, the Minmatar Empire is no more and the entire Minmatar race enters a period of subjugation and slavery under the rule of the Amarr Empire.

23216
THE GREAT REBELLION
The Amarr Empire, perceiving the Jove as an insidious threat but apparently militarily weak, launch an attempted invasion of the Jove Empire. This attack is swiftly halted in its tracks by the total defeat of the Amarr invasion force by a Jovian mothership at the Battle of Vak’Atioth. The unprecedented and devastating defeat of their fleet throws the Amarr Empire into turmoil and the Minmatar rebel movement seize the moment to strike.

The Great Rebellion results in the expulsion of the Amarr from the Minmatar homeworld and surrounding regions. It is the single greatest loss of territory in the history of the Amarr Empire. The Minmatar Republic is formed and swiftly recognized by the Gallente Federation. The Amarr, in no state to fight a war on multiple fronts, accept reality and concentrate on defending their borders and establishing the Ammatar Mandate, a client state of Minmatar subjects that remain loyal to the Empire.

861 years

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Day_of_Darkness
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Day_of_Darkness_(Chronicle)

Shut the **** up.

Undisputed facts versus IGS opinion. ...... The winner and still champion is undisputed Facts!!!

Pieter, when you run to the aid of a countryman without knowing the origin of the conflict you might be a patriot, but you might also end up being very, very wrong. Scroll back and read before you come out with guns blazing. A slaver is a slaver. Spin it if it makes you able to sleep at night, but the truth is inescapable. In my humble opinion the Caldari deserve a better ally, and I am concerned that our past is prologue for your future. Do not trust the slaver cult!

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#119 - 2014-05-18 01:19:17 UTC
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what happens when you try to do something nice for the cluster.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Matar Ronin
#120 - 2014-05-18 01:26:04 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what happens when you try to do something nice for the cluster.

One should know that a slaver's version of "nice" is them reducing your daily beating by one blow.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.