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Should eve be more 'Pay to Win?'

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#21 - 2014-04-04 00:11:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Xylem Viliana wrote:
Errr pay to win in eve...

Buy plex
Sell plex for isk
buy character on bazaar

Is this not basically p2w?


That provides exactly what the OP is after: SP for ISK.

The OP also needs to learn more about what it takes to get kills in EVE Online before suggesting that a few-days-old character can't get kills. There was a famous video about two pilots taking day-old characters in Rifters out to Providence and having a hell of a time. Sadly I don't have it bookmarked, nor can I find it :\

edit: an alternative to P2W by buying SP would be to remove SP altogether. You just buy the skill books and fly whatever ship you can afford.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#22 - 2014-04-04 00:30:43 UTC
Here's a video of day-old pilots in a fleet heading out to have some fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-D_TwtiJ

And here is a 8yo girl being a pirate (flying a punisher, nothing special): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guNrJ5hj0aQ

And here is another example of EVE being very Pay 2 Win unfriendly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GEp387tXp8

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Seraphi Nephalis
Seraphi Nephalis Corporation
#23 - 2014-04-04 00:51:46 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

edit: an alternative to P2W by buying SP would be to remove SP altogether. You just buy the skill books and fly whatever ship you can afford.


I would much prefer a system that augmented the SP system by awarding you bonus SP based on what your pilot in the game is actually doing. Not sure how it could be implemented, since there are so many different things that can be done in EVE.


"What a sad world we live in, where politeness is mistaken for weakness."  - Usagi Yojimbo
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#24 - 2014-04-04 01:07:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Mara Rinn wrote:
Xylem Viliana wrote:
Errr pay to win in eve...

Buy plex
Sell plex for isk
buy character on bazaar

Is this not basically p2w?


That provides exactly what the OP is after: SP for ISK.

The OP also needs to learn more about what it takes to get kills in EVE Online before suggesting that a few-days-old character can't get kills. There was a famous video about two pilots taking day-old characters in Rifters out to Providence and having a hell of a time. Sadly I don't have it bookmarked, nor can I find it :\

edit: an alternative to P2W by buying SP would be to remove SP altogether. You just buy the skill books and fly whatever ship you can afford.


I keep some favorites in my in-game profile including that one.

Drat, for some reason the other links I had in my profile are missing from my profile in evegate, hopefully they show up in game, but I don't have time to update my client before my ship leaves. :(


Thanks for linking that mittani article. Brings back memories. Run and hide when you hear a goon say, "I agree pve is the best thing in this game."

I LOVE GOONS! They make me laugh like no others.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#25 - 2014-04-04 01:33:00 UTC
Seraphi Nephalis wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

edit: an alternative to P2W by buying SP would be to remove SP altogether. You just buy the skill books and fly whatever ship you can afford.


I would much prefer a system that augmented the SP system by awarding you bonus SP based on what your pilot in the game is actually doing. Not sure how it could be implemented, since there are so many different things that can be done in EVE.

This was actually part of the game early in its life. What happened was...

- it discouraged activities that were not "activity based."
Some examples;
--- a logistics officer in a corporation would not be training their combat skills as fast as "rookies" would be because they can't shoot and haul stuff at the same time... even though their work is often more important.
--- a diplomat who deals with different people all day usually doesn't have time to go out and do anything "active." And no one would want to replace him/her because it would require time that they can better spend grinding SP.

- it encouraged "power grinding" versus actually playing the game. Because which will bring you greater guaranteed benefits; Mindlessly farming NPCs for more SP and ISK? Experimenting with a new ship setup that may or may not work? Roaming around aimlessly for a PvP fight that may or may not happen?

- players abused it... badly.
For example; if 2 players wanted high gunnery and active tank skills they would both set their ships up to perma-tank and not deal enough damage to break each others tank... then they would warp out to a safe-spot, aggress each other, and then go afk for a couple hours. Rinse an repeat for all skills.

How did you Veterans start?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#26 - 2014-04-04 01:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
That's why I can't find it on YouTube: it's not on YouTube Lol

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0903/TheCCPTest_divx_mp3.avi

You'll need BitTorrent to download it.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#27 - 2014-04-04 01:40:31 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far.



If you can't do the math to know that this isn't even remotely true, maybe Eve isn't the game for you? I mean, it's barely even arithmetic... maybe try a shooter instead? Those don't really require the ability to add or multiply, and I hear Dust is pretty decent.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#28 - 2014-04-04 11:26:03 UTC
Ooofft, lots of hate, personal attacks, extreme edge case scenarios etc. - I knew this would be a hot topic but I didn't expect it to take off quite so quickly.

I'm also pleasantly surprised that amidst the anger and bile most people where inherently agreeing with the base concept of why this idea isn't game breaking:

Buying SP doesn't make you a better pilot. It doesn't give you any experience in HOW to play eve or how to be successful. Players with years of experience can use trial accounts to get good kills in PVP. This is an excellent example of how experience trumps skill points in almost every situation - further developing the notion that buying SP would not give a player any real advantage due to a fundamental experience gap.

Even more accurately, having SP to spend doesn't mean they will even spend it on the 'right' things - but they will get what they want and if this brings them enjoyment then all power to them.

However - and here is the kicker: Having the SP to fly effective ships (especially during a meta switch e.g. when HML's where nerfed or when Marauders where buffed) can open up opportunities for players to GET experience. Being able to fly a fleet-doctrine ship can take weeks/months for players who start with a deficit. Equally someone who very quickly nails PVE and enjoys it (missions/incursions/explo-sites) and makes good money from it is stopped from moving into the next level because a larger ship requires an arbitrary amount of time to achieve the required 'break points' of DPS/Tank etc. that the more advances challenges require.

SP <> Skill. That applies to people who are 1 week old and people who are 10 years into the game. Just because you have 200M SP I wont think you're a good pilot. I'll just this you auto-renew a subscription.

Anyway - bring on the flames. It seems people get really but-hurt over the prospect of easily to kill newbies in shiny ships...
Oshia Launay
Galactic Fringe Inc
#29 - 2014-04-04 13:40:20 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
I used to ignore this, but it's becoming unavoidable - The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far. So my question is this:

Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?

No thanks.

Generalizing the idea that rank 5 skills should merely provide those last few bonus points for people looking to fully maximize their stats in one area or another, as opposed to unlocking all sort of tier 2 goodness, whether tech 2 modules, ships or 'advanced' skills, would go a long way towards making the gap between long time veterans and new players smaller.
Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2014-04-04 13:46:07 UTC
Gap is huge and takes a lot to seal, but you might be looking at it in a wrong way.

1) every class of ships have limited SP you can allocate in it. You can be competitive frigate pilot in 2 months. You will be however limited to that ship
2) skills give only so much and you tend to loose by tens of percents not just few of them. Fights when that +5% armor matters are rare tbh. It's more of a rock - paper - scissors thing when it comes to eve
3) even really new players are good for fleets. Tracking disruptors, dampeners and ECM work almost exactly as well no matter who's using them. You don't even have to fly an ewar ship to use them (well - maybe with ECM it is needed). You join a fleet of cruisers with your pitiful frigate, and then destroy optimal/tracking of the target. It works.
4)I found that isk is more of a problem in FW zone than SP. You need cash to keep these navy frigs comming. Still - I used kestrel and condor for 5 months and lived with it. I even killed stuff solo.

P2W makes me angry cause there's no limit to that usually. I prefer subscriptions cause they are fair. Spending countless cash on gear/ammo would make me quit in literally 1 day.

"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe
Leoric Firesword
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-04-04 14:08:49 UTC
first

this is features and ideas, not new citizens.

second no

I've got less than a year under my belt, in that time I have switched training from my main twice to do PI alts. I'm more than happy with how I can fit ships and what ships I can fly.

Your friends need to HTFU
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#32 - 2014-04-04 14:33:35 UTC
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:
Gap is huge and takes a lot to seal, but you might be looking at it in a wrong way.

1) every class of ships have limited SP you can allocate in it. You can be competitive frigate pilot in 2 months. You will be however limited to that ship
2) skills give only so much and you tend to loose by tens of percents not just few of them. Fights when that +5% armor matters are rare tbh. It's more of a rock - paper - scissors thing when it comes to eve
3) even really new players are good for fleets. Tracking disruptors, dampeners and ECM work almost exactly as well no matter who's using them. You don't even have to fly an ewar ship to use them (well - maybe with ECM it is needed). You join a fleet of cruisers with your pitiful frigate, and then destroy optimal/tracking of the target. It works.
4)I found that isk is more of a problem in FW zone than SP. You need cash to keep these navy frigs comming. Still - I used kestrel and condor for 5 months and lived with it. I even killed stuff solo.

P2W makes me angry cause there's no limit to that usually. I prefer subscriptions cause they are fair. Spending countless cash on gear/ammo would make me quit in literally 1 day.


Some really good points - I'll reply to them since you took a lot of time to make a solid contribution to the thread.

1) Total agree - however support skills that a non-ship-specific make a big difference.
2) Agree'd. but there isn't just 1 5% skill - there are a few dousen - especially in frigates. A small ammount of extra fitting, shield, hull etc. can all add up to a BIG advantage.
3) Real alliances run SRP's to replace expensive, high SP ships - it is frowned upon or outright not acceptable to bring something along the lines of what your talking about. Also: What if the pilot doesn't want to be a 'Space Healer'? What if they don't want to be the 'Support who wards'?
4) What you fly should be based on what you can afford - increasing your SP results in no ISK gain if you don't know HOW to earn money efficiently - that wouldn't change.

Also "Pay 2 Win" was an ironic statement: Because older players have paid for years and have a multitude of advantages that a new player doesn't have even if they had identical SP. It's actually closer to "Pay to catch up"
Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-04-04 15:52:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Balshem Rozenzweig
Maeltstome wrote:
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:
Gap is huge and takes a lot to seal, but you might be looking at it in a wrong way.

1) every class of ships have limited SP you can allocate in it. You can be competitive frigate pilot in 2 months. You will be however limited to that ship
2) skills give only so much and you tend to loose by tens of percents not just few of them. Fights when that +5% armor matters are rare tbh. It's more of a rock - paper - scissors thing when it comes to eve
3) even really new players are good for fleets. Tracking disruptors, dampeners and ECM work almost exactly as well no matter who's using them. You don't even have to fly an ewar ship to use them (well - maybe with ECM it is needed). You join a fleet of cruisers with your pitiful frigate, and then destroy optimal/tracking of the target. It works.
4)I found that isk is more of a problem in FW zone than SP. You need cash to keep these navy frigs comming. Still - I used kestrel and condor for 5 months and lived with it. I even killed stuff solo.

P2W makes me angry cause there's no limit to that usually. I prefer subscriptions cause they are fair. Spending countless cash on gear/ammo would make me quit in literally 1 day.


Some really good points - I'll reply to them since you took a lot of time to make a solid contribution to the thread.

1) Total agree - however support skills that a non-ship-specific make a big difference.
2) Agree'd. but there isn't just 1 5% skill - there are a few dousen - especially in frigates. A small ammount of extra fitting, shield, hull etc. can all add up to a BIG advantage.
3) Real alliances run SRP's to replace expensive, high SP ships - it is frowned upon or outright not acceptable to bring something along the lines of what your talking about. Also: What if the pilot doesn't want to be a 'Space Healer'? What if they don't want to be the 'Support who wards'?
4) What you fly should be based on what you can afford - increasing your SP results in no ISK gain if you don't know HOW to earn money efficiently - that wouldn't change.

Also "Pay 2 Win" was an ironic statement: Because older players have paid for years and have a multitude of advantages that a new player doesn't have even if they had identical SP. It's actually closer to "Pay to catch up"


1) yes - but it takes a lot longer to take them from IV to V that it did to bring them from 0-IV. Because of that you might expect the other dude will not have them maxed either, and if he does - that it's still just a couple of %. Don't get me wrong - he will be better and will have easier time, I just think that predicting correctly what the other guy has and attacking him with counter fit gives you better adventage than counting on him having inferior skills.
2) good point. Sadly you are right here. Still - you can sacrifice under a month to get some important skills maxed. Other than that - you could use meta. Expensive and inferior, but not by a margin of unplayable.
3) Well - hard core alliances will not accept a newbie anyway. Too much teaching, too much of an SP requirement (from what I've seen - they demend sth like 20M +). It's different recruitment target realy so I think this point is not realy valid.
4) ISK profit depends strongly on knowing the meta (or generally - game environment). CCP should do better job at making new players experience more educating. They should also update those shamelessly lying wiki pages (or give me the isk I lost because of them back, damm it!)

Any form of p2w boosting will be heavily abused by older players. As things are currently - it would prolly be available for isk (plex) so they would be winning without realy paying. People are just like that.

Even if you restrict SP (or anything else tbh) boosting to younger characters it will act as a detterant, because they will feel like they were sucked dry by a game that doesn't offer nothing but subscription fees and microtransactions.

Also - maybe it's just me but when I see gold ammo, and I know I will never use it, I loose my will to play because I suspect that I will keep meeting people who outpaced me thanks to it. This is were the feeling that "there's a gap I will never close" is for me. SP - I got used to it. I look at all those mighty 2010 accounts and I know that 4 years ago they were where I am. Being slaughtered by guys from 2006 :P

As for power balance - yeah. EVE is about older players feeding of newbies :D You sell to them, you buy from them, you kill/pod them, and then you manipulate the market they want to use. When they haul you shoot them. When they want to pay you for hauling - you ask too much. But you can look at EVE from other perspective - detoxication after too much time in wow-clones. (not crying - just wanted to make it sound philosophical. Re-reading I realise I failed)

"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#34 - 2014-04-04 16:32:51 UTC
Nothing particularly shocking to read - all good points. I think the balance issues are almost self-fixing in most of the instances you've pointed out.

As you've said most skills trained to level 4 are sufficient to perform well, so a new player who intelligently trained 5-10 skills using (e.g.) 1-million 'Bought' SP would gain a lot more than someone who its 5 years into the game and is buying 'Caldari Dreadnaught 5'. The amount of SP required to go from level 1-4 is tiny compared to 4-5, it's almost exponential actually. The SP system favours starting a skill rather than perfecting it.

RMT is rife in ALL online games - offering 'SP-4-Cash' is simply not a service third-party company can offer. It's also considerably more 'Micro' than buying a character with 10's of millions of SP that you don't want 90% of... you just want, for example, lvl4 for all your gunnery support skills.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-04-04 16:35:18 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Ooofft, lots of hate, personal attacks, extreme edge case scenarios etc. - I knew this would be a hot topic but I didn't expect it to take off quite so quickly.

I'm also pleasantly surprised that amidst the anger and bile most people where inherently agreeing with the base concept of why this idea isn't game breaking:

Buying SP doesn't make you a better pilot. It doesn't give you any experience in HOW to play eve or how to be successful. Players with years of experience can use trial accounts to get good kills in PVP. This is an excellent example of how experience trumps skill points in almost every situation - further developing the notion that buying SP would not give a player any real advantage due to a fundamental experience gap.

Even more accurately, having SP to spend doesn't mean they will even spend it on the 'right' things - but they will get what they want and if this brings them enjoyment then all power to them.

However - and here is the kicker: Having the SP to fly effective ships (especially during a meta switch e.g. when HML's where nerfed or when Marauders where buffed) can open up opportunities for players to GET experience. Being able to fly a fleet-doctrine ship can take weeks/months for players who start with a deficit. Equally someone who very quickly nails PVE and enjoys it (missions/incursions/explo-sites) and makes good money from it is stopped from moving into the next level because a larger ship requires an arbitrary amount of time to achieve the required 'break points' of DPS/Tank etc. that the more advances challenges require.

SP <> Skill. That applies to people who are 1 week old and people who are 10 years into the game. Just because you have 200M SP I wont think you're a good pilot. I'll just this you auto-renew a subscription.

Anyway - bring on the flames. It seems people get really but-hurt over the prospect of easily to kill newbies in shiny ships...



Too bad you fail to so that even when you are training for ship "x" with fit "y" you can be useful in other ways.

When I first started to PvP, I could by far fly the doctrine ships required, but unlike you, I didn't complain about it and asked for P2W.

I just asked, what can I do to assist. I flew similar style ships or just tackle ships till I was on par with the doctrine. Nothing stops you from being useful, even if you can't fly the exact doctrine fit.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-04-04 16:39:21 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:

1) Total agree - however support skills that a non-ship-specific make a big difference.
2) Agree'd. but there isn't just 1 5% skill - there are a few dousen - especially in frigates. A small ammount of extra fitting, shield, hull etc. can all add up to a BIG advantage.
3) Real alliances run SRP's to replace expensive, high SP ships - it is frowned upon or outright not acceptable to bring something along the lines of what your talking about. Also: What if the pilot doesn't want to be a 'Space Healer'? What if they don't want to be the 'Support who wards'?
4) What you fly should be based on what you can afford - increasing your SP results in no ISK gain if you don't know HOW to earn money efficiently - that wouldn't change.

Also "Pay 2 Win" was an ironic statement: Because older players have paid for years and have a multitude of advantages that a new player doesn't have even if they had identical SP. It's actually closer to "Pay to catch up"


1. Support skills to 4 only take about an extra month.
2. Nope. They do not match up in such a big difference they make a BIG difference. Someone with 2 weeks of experience and level 4 skills will kill someone who bought those SP to get level 5.
3. Uhm, then you are in a **** alliance. The ones I been in did SRP if you brought a ship that was useful in the doctrine, it didn't have to be the exact same fit as long as it was in line of what the doctrine was based upon.
4. So, why would you want to buy SP then. That's the beauty of the current system, with the time you get the SP to fly a ship, you also get the time to earn it, you just proven that your entire point of buying SP is useless...

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-04-04 16:41:24 UTC
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:

Any form of p2w boosting will be heavily abused by older players.


This.

You also totally forgot about Malcanis' Law.P

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#38 - 2014-04-04 16:49:33 UTC
I love all the lists! All we need now are graphs.

The character Bazaar + Plex give you all the 'pay to win' mechanics that you really need. You can buy a 100 million skillpoint character today and 'pimp' to taste any ship that pilot can fly.

This at least gives some level of balance that that 100 mil character is going to have a history and can't have a name change.

Realistically you could probably spend 100-200 bucks and get a pretty good pilot + whatever ship you wanted to fly (sub-cap).

Any new player that I've ever seen buy a toon off the character bazaar in their first month or two of playing usually quits the game. A different pay to win mechanic may bring more players in, but it won't keep more players. What would the challenge be?
Ethikos
Doomheim
#39 - 2014-04-05 01:43:37 UTC
Besides, as has been mentioned above "Pay to Win" is a flawed concept for EvE in any case. EvE PvP is to complex and to intricate for any "Pay to Win" scenario. Newer players look at more expensive ships / modules and think they automatically better over the cheaper versions. A better way to look at EvE ships and fits is like classes in other MMOs. Each has their role and will succeed in a given circumstance. Beyond that, as was mentioned above the "player skill" in EvE simple can not be purchased. There is to much to learn.

Sniggwaffe (Waffles)
Kronenbourg Strasbourg
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2014-04-05 04:17:17 UTC
I'm a very new player (approx. 6 weeks) and cannot see the point of being able to just jump through all of the initial stuff (which I am of course, currently going through).

1) If you're serious about a game like EVE, you'll actually enjoy the learning and discovery phase, whilst flying the more basic ships / using basic equipment

2) Even if someone handed me infinite ISK / skills / ships, I wouldn't really have a clue what to do with them / it, and would most likely get bashed by anyone with more experience, which personally i believe would lead to even more frustration and confusion than a new player currently experiences, therefore leading to more quitting... "Hey I've paid my way to getting all this stuff, why am I not suddenly really epic at the game??!?! THIS SUCKS, I QUIT!!"

3) Like anything in life, you don't get full appreciation or enjoyment from it, unless you have put in the necessary effort to then reap the rewards

I don't care what game it is - Tetris, Sonic, Goldeneye, Sims, WoW, or EVE, you CANNOT run before you can walk, and cannot buy/cheat your way to being good at it. As I've read A LOT since being a member, the most valuable asset in EVE is not skills, equipment, or even ISK... It is the commodity of time. Without a lot of that invested, you're going to be the loser.

Just my two pennies worth, but I think I'm right Cool