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The Null Sec Myth

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Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#41 - 2011-11-14 07:58:28 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
[You know you are right. I just warped through a gate with cloaky fitted whatever I was flying, and I warped to a planet and then I warped through to the gate. no one ever decloaked me or anything. I mean I just trespassed all over that alliances space, but then I realized that there was no fun to be had. My cloaky ship was a poor isk generator, and I was constantly watching local. After ducking blob after blob using my game mechanics, I decided to return to Empire. There I could actually blow something up. I did not have to hide and dodge as much. I was able to turn a profit in seconds. After a while I forgot completely why I went to nullsec. Can someone remind me?


I dunno? You missed farming level 4s too much maybe? I was patrolling in a Vaga in null the other day, and stumbled across a Dread Gurista battleship in a belt. So I killed it. It dropped a Crystal Omega implant. It roughly equals doing about 60 level 4s.

I guess i just want to say: To each his own.

So its all about the isk for you? don't you find patrols a bit tedious?
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#42 - 2011-11-14 08:12:35 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:

So its all about the isk for you? don't you find patrols a bit tedious?



No, it seemed to be all about the isk for you the way you talk about "instantly turning profit". As for the patrol - Patrol = looking for a fight. And yes, I enjoy it.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#43 - 2011-11-14 08:19:55 UTC
Dradius Calvantia wrote:
...original post...

If what you say is true then it sure as hell has improved since I got out (Quantum Rise), which is contrary to what null denizens have been saying about life there since Dominion was launched.
1. Majority of access points are camped or bubbled with a high-gank ship cloaked. Bottlenecks inside null is the same and you quite frequently run into bubbles/slings left over from camps that are long gone.
- Change bubble mechanics. If grid is ever vacated (includes cloaking, use FW plex timer detector) onlined bubbles start an automatic offlining process that lasts twice normal duration.
2. There are and were a lot of gang roams, never seen one go as low as 20 though, even the spill over gangs that enter low-sec from null today are closer to 50. Generally speaking the smaller a gang the higher the likelihood of them having a Titan bridge or super-blob on standby in case they find something to engage ..
- Change cyno mechanics (being done last I heard) to restrict the ability to bring infinite reinforcements. Make null less of an EHP grinding exercise and move most sovereignty/control mechanics over to a objective based system where small gangs can make their mark .. most people dont actually like blobbing but CCP has made it a feature through EHP crap.
3. Might well be accurate, certainly fits in with my presumption of people not liking to be in a blob all the time. But since a relatively low number of null pilots know how to PvP on the small scale it is simply not an option for the majority as the small-gang action is still the odd-one-out so experience is hard to come by.
- See #2. Move away from EHP grind mechanics.
4. True for established and organized entities. The initial phase of settling can be immensely time consuming, but there are more than enough of us neckbeards around to cover the occasional real-lifer so I'll mark it is trueSmile
- Null was never supposed to cater to individuals, especially not the casual player individual which is fine. A move away from EHP grind mechanics will help make all 23 hours of the day worth logging into though so should lower the bar a bit.
5. Very true. Personally would have gone with the early Goon blob as the example but 'meh'. There is one caveat though, the lower ones SP the harder stuff will be -> greater reliance on alliance/corp mates. Something to keep in mind.
- Null industrialization, mining revamp (hopefully), removal of most EHP mechanics, projection changes et al. will all help lower the bar so that even nooblets can enjoy the game without having to rely on others for every second. Until then they are merely considered cheap labour/easy marks in most areas I think.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#44 - 2011-11-14 08:20:54 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:

So its all about the isk for you? don't you find patrols a bit tedious?



No, it seemed to be all about the isk for you the way you talk about "instantly turning profit". As for the patrol - Patrol = looking for a fight. And yes, I enjoy it.

Well good for you. I find patrols rather tedious. You know if you are so elite why don't you own your own corp?
Seatox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2011-11-14 08:34:33 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:

So its all about the isk for you? don't you find patrols a bit tedious?



No, it seemed to be all about the isk for you the way you talk about "instantly turning profit". As for the patrol - Patrol = looking for a fight. And yes, I enjoy it.

Well good for you. I find patrols rather tedious. You know if you are so elite why don't you own your own corp?


Because managing a proper 0.0 corporation in a proper 0.0 alliance is a hell of a lot of work? It's not just "push button, set tax rate, profit lol", like in highsec. You actually have to organize people, do diplomacy on a regular basis, work with allies, manage morale, hunt spies, and probably a bunch of other things. I, for one, am happy being a footsoldier for other people, because I doubt I could handle the paperwork.
Dradius Calvantia
Lip Shords
#46 - 2011-11-14 08:39:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Dradius Calvantia
Ok guys, time to stop feeding the troll.

Feel free to discus differing opinions, ask questions, or debate the pros cons of null sec. I do ask however that you do not make personal attacks, put forth opinion as facts, or simply be contentious for the sake of argument. Please ignore the few people in this thread so far who are doing just that to attempt to get a response from you.

Thank you.
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#47 - 2011-11-14 08:54:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviana Sevidon
The problem with 0.0 as I see it, is that alliances became to big, in many cases they control more space then they can possible use, but because it is "their" space they deny others access to it. With the absurdly high moon goo profits there is also little incentive to allow renters in their space and a small alliance that tries to claim a part of 0.0, even a poor and uninteresting one, is just a target.

Another problem is disruption of activity, putting cloaking alts into a system has become a very common practice and one that is very hard to defend against. I know the arguments that are coming now, that it is possible to protect against that, but it usually means having a fleet on standby. In practice it is far more easy to disrupt the activities of neighboring alliances, then to protect your own.

Joining a large alliance has also not much appeal, the current CSM are fine examples of the specimen is such alliances, so the only existance they envision for other players is to be a slave or minion of their alliances, so people who want to stay more independent have also no place there.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.
Elyssa MacLeod
Doomheim
#48 - 2011-11-14 09:06:46 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
[You know you are right. I just warped through a gate with cloaky fitted whatever I was flying, and I warped to a planet and then I warped through to the gate. no one ever decloaked me or anything. I mean I just trespassed all over that alliances space, but then I realized that there was no fun to be had. My cloaky ship was a poor isk generator, and I was constantly watching local. After ducking blob after blob using my game mechanics, I decided to return to Empire. There I could actually blow something up. I did not have to hide and dodge as much. I was able to turn a profit in seconds. After a while I forgot completely why I went to nullsec. Can someone remind me?


I dunno? You missed farming level 4s too much maybe? I was patrolling in a Vaga in null the other day, and stumbled across a Dread Gurista battleship in a belt. So I killed it. It dropped a Crystal Omega implant. It roughly equals doing about 60 level 4s.


Cool story brah, this happens every day?


GM Homonoia: Suicide ganks are a valid and viable tactic in EVE.

Where is your God now carebear?
CausticS0da
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#49 - 2011-11-14 09:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: CausticS0da
Straight
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2011-11-14 09:34:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
So what is your point, that players once they see the choke point camp should just high tail it back to the gate? I guess they did not get to experience nullsec... Which is the point of why some players don't go to null... Its camped out, with warp bubbles.

a little patience goes a long way.

I will give you an example which you can believe or not.

Recently I was happily prancing around in Stain when I noticed a Tengu in JS-E8E.
Brought in my covops alt and started to scan him down - sadly he was doing a hacking site with only frigate rats and I would have needed some serious NPC dps to bring him down. But I also found a more interesting site called "Sansha Fortress" in the same system. After the Tengu left I set out to do that site in my Legion (pure PvE fit - no T1/T2 cloak but salvager, no interdiction nullifier).

I was lucky and the site triggered an expedition/escalation in MB4D-4.
Getting there required me to pass through a staging system of -A- (LGK).
I did the run during prime time - waited logged out in X1E with my eyes in LGK until a -A- roam left and then took the chance a few minutes afterwards.

Next expedition system was EX6-AO in Catch. Past -A-, past some russians, past LEGIO's HQ. A few populated systems in there, but I made it just fine.

The 3rd stage of the expedition sent me to Y-PNRL which meant passing through Ushra Khan's territory (and CNC is an extremely busy system). But I was patient, scouted the situation diligently, made bookmarks and only logged my Legion back in when I was sure that the risks were manageable (having no cloak sucks but I needed a salvager for those shiny faction wrecks).

The final stage was in ES-Q0W in Querious. Thankfully Cascade presence was limited to a few ratters but sadly no deadspace loot dropped Sad
Then I had to make the whole way back through Catch to my home system in Stain (while carrying a fair amount of faction loot for extra thrills).

Here is the whole route http://evemaps.dotlan.net/route/JS-E8E:ES-Q0W

There were bubbles on the way, there were camps, there were frigate roams passing through and 60-80man armageddon (-A-) and Maelstrom (ev0ke) fleets crossing my way. I was in a 600-700m ship without cloak that I would have hated to lose.
But with good scouting, a lot of patience and without any blue standings I managed to make my way through a war area and return in my ship unharmed.

If I had just given each gate one blind try I would have died in LGK at the latest (possibly even in 9RQ).
If I hadn't done the trip at all i would have lost out on some nice ISK and shinies.

If a terrible carebear like me can do it (I only pvp when I have a clear advantage or in blobs), then anyone else can do it - given knowledge of game mechanics and patience, patience, patience.
Yes it was a journey through 0.0 and not into 0.0 but I have entered Catch through HED several times and usually didn't lose a ship when doing so. Use scouts, make bookmarks, try to make the run outside of prime time if possible, if not wait for someone more juicy than you to jump in first and follow suit (and either don't sit at the gate in Keberz at all or sit there for a very long time). Learn to MWD + cloak for ships that cannot fit covops cloaks.
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#51 - 2011-11-14 10:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
Elyssa MacLeod wrote:
Reilly Duvolle wrote:


I dunno? You missed farming level 4s too much maybe? I was patrolling in a Vaga in null the other day, and stumbled across a Dread Gurista battleship in a belt. So I killed it. It dropped a Crystal Omega implant. It roughly equals doing about 60 level 4s.


Cool story brah, this happens every day?





Lets just say that I have never had any problems funding my characters.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2011-11-14 10:13:58 UTC
Having lived in 0.0 several times, I know for a fact that the OP is right, and all of the myths he brings up are just that - myths, with little basis in reality.

I still have absolutely no desire whatsoever to go back.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2011-11-14 10:34:39 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Who said I have a problem with nullsec players? I have problems with walls. I don't believe anyone in EVE should have an "I win" button, and warp bubbles are exactly that: an "I win" button for gate campers. If nullsec was really that cool of a place, would the community still need convincing after 7 years? If it were as simple as you say it is, would you have posters who constantly come to the forums to try to understand the "simple basic game mechanics"? Fun is what players are looking for in any sec area of EVE. Nullsec just tends not to be as much fun as other parts.


I honestly don't think that chokepoint blobs (with bubbles and everything) is the biggest deterence for why high-sec players rarely ventures out to null-sec. Sure, its a factor but why is it a factor?

The answer is that you can do little on your own. Out in null-sec you more or less have to rely on others.

You want to mine? Well you gonna need protection. Want to rat? Also gonna need protection. Want to roam? Protection.
What is that protection? Other players.

In high-sec you don't need other players for that because there you have concord on standby to deal out swift punishment. And they react quicker than any player do to sudden interferences. You don't need to rely on others. And from most of my experience, very few want to rely on others. High-sec is the singleplayer part of EVE.

Another factor that has made high-sec a singleplayer area is missions. They can be done alone. And will be done alone. Why?
Because of ISK and loot.

One of EVEs favorite mottos, "don't trust anyone", comes nicely into play here. If you let another random into your mission you take a big risk. He might steal all of your loot, and half you mission reward. Same risk goes for the one helping. He might get no loot, or mission reward at all for helping.

Its sad but high-sec is anti social. Players would rather do stuff on their own than interacting with others for fear of loosing what is "rightfully" yours.

And this is the biggest reason I want missions in general to be thougher. Not all of the missions. But add a few that adds such a challenge that single playing it, will be nearly impossible, and give insentives that doing this with another player will be more lucerative than doing it on your own.

TL:DR

Having players interact more with eachother in missions will ease the transition into low- or null-sec later on. Since players will hopefully realise it is better to play with others than on your own when out in null-sec.

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#54 - 2011-11-14 10:38:21 UTC
Hero Tackler wrote:


QFT for blue sec abloo bloo


OHMAHGAWD NULLSEC IS ENTIRELY BLUE!

ಠ_ಠ

and that's from the perspective of the largest coalition in EVE.
Inir Ishtori
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2011-11-14 10:43:14 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
So what is your point, that players once they see the choke point camp should just high tail it back to the gate? I guess they did not get to experience nullsec... Which is the point of why some players don't go to null... Its camped out, with warp bubbles.

a little patience goes a long way.

I will give you an example which you can believe or not.

Recently I was happily prancing around in Stain when I noticed a Tengu in JS-E8E.
Brought in my covops alt


at that point one can stop reading. the high sec dwellers you guys are so desperate to get into null are probably playing happily on their single account and don't want to bother with relogging on a cheap scout for every single system on their route through 0.0 . hitting scan each couple of seconds while doing some sites in a system with just ONE another player does not sound all that attractive either.
Master Andrew
Hell's Revenge
#56 - 2011-11-14 11:17:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Master Andrew
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Dradius Calvantia wrote:
You know, I am always amused at how the dirty, moralless, blood thirsty, null secers are always the one who post with constructive, helpful advice and generally add to the discussion in a meaningful way.

While on the other hand, people like Elrich and Commizar (who seem to have a problem with null sec and all those who have ever lived there) resort to ad hominem attacks, unsupported claims, and general tin foil hattery.

(This is the extent of the attention either of you are going to get from me in this thread.)

Who said I have a problem with nullsec players? I have problems with walls. I don't believe anyone in EVE should have an "I win" button, and warp bubbles are exactly that: an "I win" button for gate campers. If nullsec was really that cool of a place, would the community still need convincing after 7 years? If it were as simple as you say it is, would you have posters who constantly come to the forums to try to understand the "simple basic game mechanics"? Fun is what players are looking for in any sec area of EVE. Nullsec just tends not to be as much fun as other parts.



You sound 1) Butthurt 2) Like someone who has never lived or tried to live in 0.0 . 3) Bitter about getting killed on a gate with bubbles 4) More butthurt

seriousily you cant comment on 0.0 when you have clearley never even tried to live there.

OP make some good points about the myths surrounding null and all you could do is go 'wah wah wah wah bubbles wah wah wah unfair wah wah wah blobs......' etc etc -

you sound like a total pussy but then tbh most of the players i know who refuse to leave highsec even after years of playing are risk averse and dont like getting blown up - well i am truley sorry that all those people are missing out on the an important and exciting part of eve.

on a side note anyone thinking they can make more isk in empire/lowsec than 0.0 is doing something seriousily wrong. ( with the exception of fw lp's which will be nerfed soon and trading) i used to make 1 billion a day easily and then go and do some pvp after - happy days

edit :- people dont need to be convinved to live in 0.0 - the vast majority of players either live there already or have alts that do
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2011-11-14 11:22:44 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
If you think that will convince players to head out to null, keep dreaming. All nullsec is choked up. All nullsec entry points are bubble camped unless you are going through a worm hole. And you don't believe players should be able to effectively counter warp bubbles? why not? Are you a gate camper?

yea. and all ICE and asteroid belts in empire is 24/7 camped by suicide gankers Shocked
and all contracts and market orders is SCAM!!! Shocked
and all the corps in empire is 24/7/365 wardecced to DEATH! Shocked
and all missions is under control of ninja-salvagers Shocked

... keep trolling.....

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Justin Credulent
Luv You Long Time
#58 - 2011-11-14 11:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Credulent
Are these lies supposed to make me want to try null-sec again?

I mean really now, anyone can go to null-sec and see for themselves. 3 systems in, gatecamp, podded, wake up in station. /thread

Null-Sec needs to HTFU and stop crying to CCP. If null-sec wants PvP, they need to stop being carebears and start fighting eachother - after years of bot-mining, they have the ships!
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2011-11-14 12:20:29 UTC
Justin Credulent wrote:
Are these lies supposed to make me want to try null-sec again?

nope. no one is waiting for you there....
soon we will have more tasty anomalies, revamped POS management, bridges....

No. No. Stay in high-sec. Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#60 - 2011-11-14 12:47:20 UTC
Justin Credulent wrote:
Are these lies supposed to make me want to try null-sec again?



I'm sure I speak for the 0.0 community as a whole when I say that we're hoping that they don't.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016