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A catalyst appears on grid...
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Saladinae
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-04-01 19:22:18 UTC
In a small 10v10 gang fight.

In your gang you have an interdictor, a Deimos.

Who gets primaried first? Your dictor, your Deimos or you (the 650 dps catalyst) ?

Winmatar > Everything else
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-04-01 19:38:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
It takes full rack of neutrons with Void, full magstabs, burst and collision rig plus 5% hardwirings for both small hybrids and surgical strike to get dps of 657. Impressive, but probably not happening often because not only the cost of that pod but also you can only fit an AB onto that and the other mid has literally no fitting left to do anything useful (meta sensor booster perhaps). Unless we are talking faction fittings on a catalyst here.

In answer to your question the catalyst probably doesn't get primaried but it might, it depends on whether or not your enemy think they can tank your fleet if they can eliminate a couple dps ships really fast. With less than 4k EHP and being slow (~750 m/s) combined with the range you need to get to in order to apply that damage, if for any reason your enemy decides to go for light tanks first you'll die very quickly and I guarantee you will die straight away if anyone figures out what you are putting out. We also don't know what your other 7 ships are or what any of the enemy ships are. Are we talking about an Alliance tourney setup here? If so the ships people think they can kill before logi can respond are often primaried and this catalyst would certainly fall into that category. So your question doesn't really have an answer, as always reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.

All that being said, I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, whether it is to point out that a catalyst can get a shocking amount of damage or to boast about your use of same.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Saladinae
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-04-01 19:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Saladinae
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
It takes full rack of neutrons with Void, full magstabs, burst and collision rig plus 5% hardwirings for both small hybrids and surgical strike to get dps of 657.


Because you're bad at fitting.

Full rack neutron. 2 magstabs, burst + colision +overheat = 647 dps

1MN Ab + nano (overheat AB too) is over 1000km/s easy. You can also fit a scram.

NO implants.

Much cheaper than Deimos, and you "time to live" is about the same.


With implants you can break 700, but it's not worth it.

We assume overheat because you will die before you burn out, that's a guarantee.

Winmatar > Everything else
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2014-04-01 19:52:59 UTC
Saladinae wrote:
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
It takes full rack of neutrons with Void, full magstabs, burst and collision rig plus 5% hardwirings for both small hybrids and surgical strike to get dps of 657.


Because you're bad at fitting.

Full rack neutron. 2 magstabs, burst + colision +overheat = 647 dps

1MN Ab + nano (overheat AB too) is over 1000km/s easy. You can also fit a scram.

NO implants.

Overheat


With implants you can break 700, but it's not worth it.

We assume overheat because you will die before you burn out, that's a guarantee.

You didn't mention anything about overheating, so I tried to see if it was possible to do it cold.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Saladinae
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-04-01 19:53:36 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:

You didn't mention anything about overheating, so I tried to see if it was possible to do it cold.


Overheating is assumed in a non-tanked PvP blaster boat.

Winmatar > Everything else
Saladinae
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-04-01 19:56:02 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:

All that being said, I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, whether it is to point out that a catalyst can get a shocking amount of damage or to boast about your use of same.


The point of this thread is to wonder whether or not it's worth flying this ship in a low/null sec gang. If you're going to die before applying any dps, why bother?

Winmatar > Everything else
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-04-01 19:56:09 UTC
Saladinae wrote:
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:

You didn't mention anything about overheating, so I tried to see if it was possible to do it cold.


Overheating is assumed in a non-tanked PvP blaster boat.

You're going to die before you burn out? What's this not being primaried stuff about then?

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2014-04-01 20:06:24 UTC
Saladinae wrote:
Much cheaper than Deimos, and you "time to live" is about the same.

In a 10 man gang you can easily spare a few spots for Guardians in which case a Deimos MASSIVELY exceeds your ability to live in an untanked catalyst that will die before you can even boradcast for armor if you do get primaried. Remember you failed to tell us what the other 7 ships are so I will assume they are whatever I like. So really the question is how did you get that catalyst into the fleet at all.

As I said before the only thing you can do is fly your catalyst, some fights you will die before you do anything, some you will be ignored. So do what you want, there is no way to generalize what an opposing FC will opt to do.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Saladinae
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-04-01 20:12:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Saladinae
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
Saladinae wrote:
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:

You didn't mention anything about overheating, so I tried to see if it was possible to do it cold.


Overheating is assumed in a non-tanked PvP blaster boat.

You're going to die before you burn out? What's this not being primaried stuff about then?


Depends on whether or not you are primaried first, second or third.

Which again, is the point of the thread. This thread concerns the nuance and subtle (but important) details of a small gang fight, and is predicated on one being knowledgeable and aware of the basic assumptions that goes into the situation.

For instance, no one expects a catalyst doing 600+ dps. They will assume 350-450 dps. However, it's tank will be thin either way.

One wonders if they will target the slightly beefier Deimos doing 750-950 dps, or they will target the paper thin (alleged) 350-450 dps catalyst, even though it's doing 600+dps.

Then we have the dictor. It's a shiny killmail that people love to pop, even after it's dropped it's bubble, and can also pump out 250-350 dps depending on it's type and fitting.

However, it's possible that your dictor won't aggress, lowering the chances of enemy FC calling him primary.

So one wonders, on average, which gets primaried first. The dictor, the Deimos, or the Catalyst? Obviously this situations assumes that the other 7 ships in your fleet are not up for consideration.

I'll give you two situtations:

1: Fleet has 2+guardians.
2: Fleet has no logi.

Winmatar > Everything else
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#10 - 2014-04-01 20:33:34 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
It takes full rack of neutrons with Void, full magstabs, burst and collision rig plus 5% hardwirings for both small hybrids and surgical strike to get dps of 657. Impressive, but probably not happening often because not only the cost of that pod but also you can only fit an AB onto that and the other mid has literally no fitting left to do anything useful (meta sensor booster perhaps). Unless we are talking faction fittings on a catalyst here.

In answer to your question the catalyst probably doesn't get primaried but it might, it depends on whether or not your enemy think they can tank your fleet if they can eliminate a couple dps ships really fast. With less than 4k EHP and being slow (~750 m/s) combined with the range you need to get to in order to apply that damage, if for any reason your enemy decides to go for light tanks first you'll die very quickly and I guarantee you will die straight away if anyone figures out what you are putting out. We also don't know what your other 7 ships are or what any of the enemy ships are. Are we talking about an Alliance tourney setup here? If so the ships people think they can kill before logi can respond are often primaried and this catalyst would certainly fall into that category. So your question doesn't really have an answer, as always reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.

All that being said, I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, whether it is to point out that a catalyst can get a shocking amount of damage or to boast about your use of same.


This is incorrect. I have the exact fitting you described. I have 730dps, and I don't even have surgical strike V or T2 specialization V.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#11 - 2014-04-01 20:34:35 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
Saladinae wrote:
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:

You didn't mention anything about overheating, so I tried to see if it was possible to do it cold.


Overheating is assumed in a non-tanked PvP blaster boat.

You're going to die before you burn out? What's this not being primaried stuff about then?


It takes about a minute to burn out. Even if you aren't primaried, you will probably die before burning out.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2014-04-01 20:53:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
Tear Jar wrote:
This is incorrect. I have the exact fitting you described. I have 730dps, and I don't even have surgical strike V or T2 specialization V.

Are you overloading? I assumed a cold fit because the OP said something to the effect of "what do you primary the dictor the deimos (or the 650 dps catalyst)". The brackets would seem to me to imply that the OP doesn't believe this will be the preferred option, the alternative would be he expects that it will be the preferred option which raises the question of why you would fly a ship you expect to die before it ever accomplishes anything and if neither of these is the case why the brackets at all. If you don't believe you will be attacked then you should expect to live beyond the time it would take you to burn your guns out, which is why I felt it appropriate to calculate the cold dps in the first place since overheated dps can't be sustained. Even if I'm wrong and you just put that bit in brackets for a reason I won't speculate further on the question still has no answer.

Once again the main thing I feel obligated to point out is that the question of who will be primary is way too vague as target selection in a given situation depends on more factors than I will try to list here and virtually all of them are missing from the original question. For that reason you can't predict what an opposing FC will do other than to say that if he knows you are in such a high damage ship with such low EHP you probably won't even land a hit before you die much less burn your guns out but again the brackets would seem to suggest the OP expects his damage to come as a surprise since it is the only ship that has its dps listed and it is very high for what you'd expect.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-04-01 21:12:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
Saladinae wrote:

I'll give you two situtations:

1: Fleet has 2+guardians.
2: Fleet has no logi.

1) If I assume your fleet has guardians and all targets are at the same range most FCs will probably primary the guardians which is likely to end the fight if they succeed in breaking them since this is not the Alliance Tournament and therefore the enemy are not obligated to stay. Killing damage dealing targets like your catalyst or other dps ships will be much more likely to keep the fight going since your fleet can still be repped and it is unlikely your fleet will panic about losing a catalyst. If you want to kill most or all of the enemy fleet by working them down slowly, you primary dps, if you want the fight to end you kill the guardians.

2) Assuming you have no logi, the enemy will probably target the ships suspected to have the highest damage to lowest tank ratio. In which case a catalyst probably falls somewhere towards the top to middle of that range but again with so little to work with it's impossible to predict. Do you have a Deimos, dictor, catalyst and 7 T1 frigates, 7 T1 cruisers, or do you have more HACs? All of this will change where you fall in the order.

Still knowing nothing about a theoretical 10-man enemy fleet makes it impossible to determine if they are likely to try and drag the logi fight out or if they will want to get out of there asap. Even if you gave me a screenshot at the outset of the fight, I would still not be able to predict exactly how it plays out and that's why this game is great. Bottom line is if you want to fly your catalyst then do it, sometimes it will die upon landing on grid other times it will be some glorious top damage dealer no one expected, so just go for it.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#14 - 2014-04-01 21:43:40 UTC
You will die quickly just based on the fact you are using an afterburner.

MWD for PVP unless it is a significant part of your fleet doctrine.
Bane Nucleus
Anomalous Empire
Transmission Lost
#15 - 2014-04-01 22:04:42 UTC
Throw drones on the catalyst. Shoot everything else.

No trolling please
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#16 - 2014-04-02 12:37:54 UTC
It depends, to a great degree, how much pressure the fleet is feeling... If they feel like they're losing then getting the 'dictor (and therefore bubbles) off the field is likely to be the priority, giving their pilots the chance to at least get their pods out and probably to save a few ships. If, on the other hand, they feel like they're in control of the fight (or winning) the Cat has the lowest HP:DPS ratio on the field, only the 'dictor is close and it is something of a double-edged sword as it makes a capital deployment more risky and keeps enemy pods on the field.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-04-02 13:53:40 UTC
Of the three you listed, probably the dictor would go first, but that really does depend a lot on the other 7 ships. the hic would take a lot to put down so the dictor and the cat would be 1 and 2, as they die a lot faster and take a good chunk of the (stated) dps off the board,

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-04-02 14:19:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Depends on who's shooting at you. Brave Noobies - Deimos goes first, because shiny. Black Legion - whoever the FC calls. Goons - all three die at about the same time and about half the dps shoots friendlies, FC included.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#19 - 2014-04-02 18:28:51 UTC  |  Edited by: RavenPaine
Dictor may tank the most (I'm thinking Heavy Dic?)
Diemos deals the most damage with average tank
Catalyst has to be close or run away to avoid

Someone else said it earlier.
Put drones on the Cat,
Diemos is clearly primary
Save the Dictor for last, we weren't planning on warping out anyway.


Edit here:
I do assume the Cat will do 500+ DPS
I kill Logi first, always. Jam 1, kill the other.
Feyrin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2014-04-04 12:39:10 UTC
The dictor, then catalyst then deimos.

Small gang warfare is heavily about force multipliers. Quickly removing ships limits the number of targets on field allowing you to concentrate ewar on dangerous targets. You dont primary an interceptor because there is no guarantee it will actually die fast or will be in range. The t1 destroyer at 4km away dies everytime. Theoretical dps on the catalyst is irrelevant in this scenario.
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