These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Giving Drones an Assist

First post First post
Author
L0SER18q
My Little Pony Industries Inc.
Trigger Happy.
#261 - 2014-04-02 01:24:53 UTC  |  Edited by: L0SER18q
30% fighter bombers damage nerf?
CCP Fozzie, are u mad?Shocked
god7705
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2014-04-02 01:37:10 UTC
So they Nyx will maintain its 175,000m3 drone bay size?

I presume that means we will be able to carry a flight of Bombers say 10 = 100,000m3 and 15 Fighters = 75,000m3 (or some mix not to exceed 175k m3). Wny not increase the Drone Bay so that we could carry varying Drone Damage types?

The spreadsheet didn't annotate the Drone Bandwidth of 12,500. Is Bandwidth changing?

What about the "Can deploy 3 additional Fighters or Fighter Bombers"? So you have to have carrier 5 to deploy 10 without Drone Control Units? What if a pilot has Carrier 5 and 4 or 5 Drone Control units?

This seems sneakily like a major Nyx nerf and/or there is another blog coming related to Supers/Carriers?

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#263 - 2014-04-02 01:58:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Quote:
To compensate for these changes, the base damage of Fighters and Fighter Bombers is being reduced… This change allows Supercarriers to deal the same damage as they currently enjoy while causing less server load.

If you want to create less server load, you need to incentivize carrier pilots to utilize fighters and fighter-bombers over standard sentry (etc.) drones - and this doesn't achieve that. This is a huge nerf for both carriers and supercarriers because they will have to fit two drone damage amplifiers just to achieve the same DPS. Fighter damage should be left as is, plus the new bonuses from drone skills and the special supercarrier bonus (where applicable).

And why aren't these being posted as a sticky under Features and Ideas?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Jenna Olgidar
OutLawed Country Inc.
Outlaw Nation.
#264 - 2014-04-02 02:07:45 UTC
<--- got two characters with all the race drone specs to 5Lol

So... before a nyx pilot can put up to 25 fb out doing normal dps with 5 drone controls on.

after patch.. nyx pilot can put 15 drones out with 5 drone controls on and 2x dps so has a total damage of 30 fb orginal dps?

does that sound right?

and if we are to remove Fighters/Fighter Bombers from bays how much of a bay do we have to keep?

I think that the nerf to fb dps is to much i think you should keep it like the fighters where at level 5 they are put to normal. having to put 2 dps mods on just to get them to be at or just above what they are. thats 2 slots where other items like armor mods go.

So yeah like my post. -Olga

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#265 - 2014-04-02 02:14:53 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
This is a huge nerf for both carriers and supercarriers because they will have to fit two drone damage amplifiers just to achieve the same DPS.
And that's a bad thing?

Also, from what I read, only SCs will need the two DDAs. Carriers will just need Interfacing V (which they should already have).
Soleil Fournier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2014-04-02 02:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
Well....

Sounds like a perfect time to revamp the Drone Control Unit as +1 fighter/bomber = 2 fighters/bombers in ability post patch.

DCUs are basically worthless on supers when Reps/Smartbombs/Cloak/Projected ECM are so much more useful in fleets. Make the DCU something I actually want to use in fleets, please. (Preferably by making it to where I don't need to use 5 high slots for it to be somewhat useful).


And forcing Nyx's to use drone damage modifiers to get their damage back, just isn't right unless you plan to give them additional low slots. They'd sacrifice too much tank, and Aeon's would be better in every way. Supers have had their tank nerfed so much already, why make them sacrifice more tank by forcing them to use lows in that way?



As far as the count to the number of fighters/bombers you're able to deploy, It is not a new idea. Years ago when supers were first redone, the devs tried to implement the limit of 10 fighters/bombers, but the players successfully pushed back against it. One of the main reasons why is that 20 fighters/bombers just make a super feel like a super with so many drones flying swarming around it. So I hope the 20 fighters/bombers are kept. Server performance is important, but so is immersion.
Sirober
The Incredible Incursion Running Guild
#267 - 2014-04-02 02:37:18 UTC
So you just made the Aeon king of super carriers. It will be able to out tank and out dmg the Nyx now. GG Fozzie ******* **** up as usual.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#268 - 2014-04-02 02:39:54 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
This is a huge nerf for both carriers and supercarriers because they will have to fit two drone damage amplifiers just to achieve the same DPS.
And that's a bad thing?

Also, from what I read, only SCs will need the two DDAs. Carriers will just need Interfacing V (which they should already have).

please just remove the carrier skill for anyone who has it but doesn't have interfacing v when you do the skill changes

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Jenna Olgidar
OutLawed Country Inc.
Outlaw Nation.
#269 - 2014-04-02 02:44:48 UTC
Sirober wrote:
So you just made the Aeon king of super carriers. It will be able to out tank and out dmg the Nyx now. GG Fozzie ******* **** up as usual.


Well to honest Wyvern is the new king with a higher EHP and able to fit all the mods in lows. however not many super pilots are wyvern users and most people that have proper shield skills are carebears.

So yes the Aeon just beat the NYX.

So yeah like my post. -Olga

Sirober
The Incredible Incursion Running Guild
#270 - 2014-04-02 02:48:25 UTC
Jenna Olgidar wrote:
Sirober wrote:
So you just made the Aeon king of super carriers. It will be able to out tank and out dmg the Nyx now. GG Fozzie ******* **** up as usual.


Well to honest Wyvern is the new king with a higher EHP and able to fit all the mods in lows. however not many super pilots are wyvern users and most people that have proper shield skills are carebears.

So yes the Aeon just beat the NYX.


Right well with all of eve using Archons as carriers, armor is the only way to go. Why you ask? Because Archons are OP, just like Aeon is now OP.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#271 - 2014-04-02 03:02:41 UTC
Also since you are messing with drones. Would you be a true hero and just remove all electronic warfare drones from the game. Thanks. Big smile

No seriously, remove them. Every single one of them is complete trash except ECM which due to the mechanics of ECM, turns every ship with a drone bay into a diet Falcon. It breaks the game on so many levels it is not even remotely fun.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2014-04-02 03:07:29 UTC
CCP, please address this:

Now that Drones are finally getting a full set of Faction mods, when will you add in Implants? Drones are the only weapon system for which there are no implants for. Additionally, there are not a full set of Rig for drones either. For example there is a rig for Sentry drone damage, but none for Light/Medium/Heavy/All of the above.

It would be nice to see these added, ideally at the same time as the faction mods.

Secondly, I noticed one missing faction from the list of Drone mods. Sister of Eve. Now that they are an entity with drone damage based ships, they too should probably be included in the list of stores for faction drone mods.



All in all I like the changes. Some of them are a long time coming :) Should make for an interesting summer to say the least.
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#273 - 2014-04-02 03:08:07 UTC
After the refining nerf/crap blog I was scared to even look at these changes.

Outside of fighters/bombers, which I dont use and wont comment on, the drone changes at least make sense. I wont give you a thumbs up, but I will say that since Ammar drones wont be worth reprocessing, at least they will have a use in the game.
XBruin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#274 - 2014-04-02 03:15:45 UTC
This is very clearly a nerf to Armor Supercaps's tank, while Shield ones remain untouched.

CCP Fozzie you were called out on this earlier in the thread and you have so far avoided addressing this particular point.

Can we have some transparency and talk us through this decision please.
Varun Arthie
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#275 - 2014-04-02 03:26:16 UTC
This change will likely make shield super more popular as you can stack damage and Cap mods in the lows and shield tank in the meds now. Mind you, the Hel is still terrible so prehaps will get balanced by CCP sometime in the next decade.
The changes to fighters and fighter bombers means they now have a higher alpha, should be more interesting.


Once again everyone is jumping on the bandwagon and crying nerf! but as half of you likely haven't read the dev blog in detail you still likely haven't realised that the whole point of it is to make the skill less confusing, although trying to figure out what drones are covered by the racial drone skill is a task in itself.

XBruin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#276 - 2014-04-02 03:52:59 UTC  |  Edited by: XBruin
Varun Arthie wrote:
This change will likely make shield super more popular as you can stack damage and Cap mods in the lows and shield tank in the meds now. Mind you, the Hel is still terrible so prehaps will get balanced by CCP sometime in the next decade.
The changes to fighters and fighter bombers means they now have a higher alpha, should be more interesting.


Once again everyone is jumping on the bandwagon and crying nerf! but as half of you likely haven't read the dev blog in detail you still likely haven't realised that the whole point of it is to make the skill less confusing, although trying to figure out what drones are covered by the racial drone skill is a task in itself.


I have read it all twice. As far as supercarriers go, ultimately this boils down to 3 points:


  1. Armor Supers lose 2 low slots to retain the same Fighter Bomber damage rate. Today these low slots are utilised almost entirely by tank modules. Therefore the balance has just been heavily tipped in favour of Shield supers, i.e. Wyvern. Was this a conscious decision? If yes, why?

  2. Aeons now completely eclipse the Nyx in terms of usefulness. Was this a conscious decision? If yes, why? If not, then maybe he needs to reconsider. Perhaps he's trying to begin assigning the Nyx as "the useless one" in the Armor category to be equivalent to the Shield category (i.e. Hel). Considering most super pilots fly the Nyx. This is going to **** off a lot of them!

  3. There's 2 types of rebalancing: Ensuring attributes are fair for ships classes/modules/drones/etc, and then there's discouraging bias for mass-adoption of a single race / damage platform, as the assumption is that the reason the majority of players adopt ship type X with weapons platform Y is because X and Y are OP.

  4. It's given that Armor supercarriers are by far the most popular today. So now, by making shield supers MUCH better than Armor, there is still imbalance as far as attributes go, it is simply flipped on its head rather than "fixed" to address the lack of shield super adoption. There is now a huge incentive for existing players to make a switch to shield. After 2 years, will the attributes finally be evened out?


In my opinion, trying to modify player behaviour, as opposed to balancing attributes across races, is ultimately CCP game intervention, which they do not want to admit to doing. CCP Fozzie, your thoughts?
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#277 - 2014-04-02 04:13:57 UTC
While this is a buff for Shield Carriers/Supers, one must remember, that Caps only exist in fleets. To make them successful, you need a fleet of them to cross rep each other and keep each other up. The problem is, no one uses Shield Caps. I mean they are out there, but in small numbers.

The only way to make Shields viable in this area would be to make them OP, so that alliances would train up for and build shield cap fleets, then they could rebalance them back to being in line with Armour and both fleets would exist finally.

Until then, or some alliance really decided to make the commitment, shield caps/supers will remain an oddity on the battle field. Regardless of how much more DPS they might be able to field with this change, if there isn't enough of them to provide the reps to keep them alive, then it's moot. Who cares if a Chimera does 20% more DPS than a Thanny, then it dies twice as fast.
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#278 - 2014-04-02 04:14:39 UTC
Nice changes,

I had a thought recently on sentry drones and the major differences between gardes and wardens which led to a theory of short and long range sentry drones. As all the weapon platforms have a short and long range variant for each type (blasters / rails, pulse / beams, and autocannons / artillery) It would be plausible to have a short and long range drone of each damage type allowing for more options. This would of course require doubling the number of sentry drones in the game and a major rebalance of all current sentry drones.

So what does the *activation proximity* stat on drones do, is this the threshold that must be crossed for a drone to shoot its target? Standard values for this tend to be lower than the drones maximum potential optimal range / falloff. For example a Templar fighter has an optimal range of 4500 base, but its activation proximity is 4000. does this mean that the templar could potentially have a ~10000 optimal from skills and omni's but it wont engage a target until its within 4000?

Fighters have long been very lackluster. while the skill changes are a nice improvment it would be nice to see some further stat changes for the fighters. Also same theory for fighters as sentrys, short and long range variants for each race would be interesting.

Small thought, there is no *drone tracking skill* not saying that i want one, just pointing out that there isn't one and if it were to be a thing this would be the time.
iskflakes
#279 - 2014-04-02 04:47:34 UTC
I've run the numbers on Nyx vs Aeon after the changes, specifically looking at their role in fleet fights and capital ganks. As far as I can see the Aeon now wins every time.

With the changes to drone damage amps the aeon can have the DPS the Nyx used to have, and also have a better tank at the same time. Unless you want to do some kind of comedy "max dps" fit there will be little reason to ever choose a Nyx over an Aeon.

Details:

An aeon with two drone damage amps fit will get around 29.7m EHP (implants, no boosts). With two drone damage amps it will do ~43% above base damage. A nyx with full tank fit gets around 28.7 million EHP, and does 25% above base damage (hull bonus).

What if we want to put a DDA on the nyx? Now it tanks 23.4 million. That's equivalent to an aeon with 3 DDAs. The aeon is now doing 56% above base damage. The Nyx is doing 48% above base damage. Again, the aeon wins on tank and damage.

If we add a second DDA to the nyx, it now edges out ahead in DPS of an aeon with 4 DDAs, though the aeon still wins in tank.

The aeon tanks better, it has higher resists and it does more DPS in 90% of situations. It also has the extremely valuable remote cap transfer range bonus and the option to refit to a huge tank. The nyx has an additional 5 spare fighters (or 2 bombers), an extra midslot, and the comparatively useless shield transfer range bonus. It can't match the aeon's tank in any situation.

The spare midslot on the nyx could be used for damage application, though there is no midslot module that will significantly affect fighter bomber damage. The midslot can be used for cap rechargers, but the aeon can use cap power relays which are substantially better (while still maintaining equal DPS and superior tank).

After these changes we may see a decrease in ship diversity as people switch to Aeons.

-

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#280 - 2014-04-02 04:52:25 UTC
Personally I'm unswayed by a lot of the min/max fiddly little objections to the drone changes because, as a general rule, I tend to pick drones that offer me an alternative damage type compared to my main weapons. This has always served me well, particularly when flying Amarr vessels, and will be an even stronger strategy in the future.

I think there is probably some truth in the supposition that some of the changes encourage the use of shield over armor, and I really don't have a problem with that either. With some of the new modules coming out as well, it should shake up a lot of current fitting and fleet composition doctrines. Should be interesting to see how it shakes out... it likely won't end up the way everyone is currently thinking.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.